Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Hi Kris, I have only had one experience similar to yours. It was a DR inverter, and a the client installed a new Budaris boiler. The boiler didn't like the power source, and we were faced with a similar choice of replacing inverter or appliance. In my inquiry someone suggested putting a capacitor (I believe 50 micro farad) in line with the power source. With the blessing of the client, we tried it and It worked like a charm (about 4 years now). In theory I follow the logic, but as I put this out to the blog I would be curious what others have to say about this cheaper (about $30) fix. Jay Jay Poz Nunatak AES (970) 349-3432 On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Kristopher Schmid sol...@legacysolar.comwrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
I used to do this with the Trace SW inverters so that they would run a certain brand of copiers.I'm not sure about the size of cap, but I'm thinking it was smaller, maybe 5 or 10 uF.A drawback is that the inverter wouldn't go the sleep since it always saw the cap as a load. Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue From: jason pozner zzyyzz...@gmail.com Date: Tue, March 27, 2012 11:02 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Kris,I have only had one experience similar to yours. It was a DR inverter, and a the client installed a new Budaris boiler. The boiler didn't like the power source, and we were faced with a similar choice of replacing inverter or appliance. In my inquiry someone suggested putting a capacitor (I believe 50 micro farad) in line with the power source. With the blessing of the client, we tried it and It worked like a charm (about 4 years now). In theory I follow the logic, but as I put this out to the blog I would be curious what others have to say about this cheaper (about $30) fix. JayJay PozNunatak AES(970) 349-3432On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Kristopher Schmid sol...@legacysolar.com wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Hi Kris, A solution to try would be to add a motor run capacitor across the line at the boiler. 10uF-20uf range may improve the crossover distortion enough to allow the boiler ignitor to operate properly. Start with 10uF. Regards, Brian Brian Faley Chief Engineer Magnum Energy Inc. 2211 West Casino Rd Everett, WA 98204 Ph 425-353-8833 www.magnumenergy.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Adding a capacitor of that size across the inverter's output may cause problems for the inverter. Much depends on how the inverter's output voltage control loop is designed, among other things. Before making any changes of this nature, I highly suggest contacting the inverter manufacturer to ask them what issues (if any) may result from such a modification. In turn, they may request from you more detail about nature of the load the inverter will be powering. Is it reactive (and if so, what's the power factor)? Linear or non-linear? And so forth It would be helpful to if you have this information available before you call them. Regards, Dan Lepinski Senior Engineer Exeltech --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Brian Faley bfa...@magnumenergy.com wrote: From: Brian Faley bfa...@magnumenergy.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 4:04 PM Hi Kris, A solution to try would be to add a motor run capacitor across the line at the boiler. 10uF-20uf range may improve the crossover distortion enough to allow the boiler ignitor to operate properly. Start with 10uF. Regards,Brian Brian FaleyChief EngineerMagnum Energy Inc.2211 West Casino RdEverett, WA 98204Ph 425-353-8833www.magnumenergy.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue Esteemed wrenches,I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400.Thanks in advance!-- Shine On!Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
My apologies. I see this recommendation comes from Magnum. The suggestion is still valid when other brands are involved and parallel capacitors are considered. Dan --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 5:11 PM Adding a capacitor of that size across the inverter's output may cause problems for the inverter. Much depends on how the inverter's output voltage control loop is designed, among other things. Before making any changes of this nature, I highly suggest contacting the inverter manufacturer to ask them what issues (if any) may result from such a modification. In turn, they may request from you more detail about nature of the load the inverter will be powering. Is it reactive (and if so, what's the power factor)? Linear or non-linear? And so forth It would be helpful to if you have this information available before you call them. Regards, Dan Lepinski Senior Engineer Exeltech --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Brian Faley bfa...@magnumenergy.com wrote: From: Brian Faley bfa...@magnumenergy.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 4:04 PM Hi Kris, A solution to try would be to add a motor run capacitor across the line at the boiler. 10uF-20uf range may improve the crossover distortion enough to allow the boiler ignitor to operate properly. Start with 10uF. Regards,Brian Brian FaleyChief EngineerMagnum Energy Inc.2211 West Casino RdEverett, WA 98204Ph 425-353-8833www.magnumenergy.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue Esteemed wrenches,I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400.Thanks in advance!-- Shine On!Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Brian, Would this also work for the Splendide washers? If not, have you come up with any solution yet? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 27, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Brian Faley wrote: Hi Kris, A solution to try would be to add a motor run capacitor across the line at the boiler. 10uF-20uf range may improve the crossover distortion enough to allow the boiler ignitor to operate properly. Start with 10uF. Regards, Brian Brian Faley Chief Engineer Magnum Energy Inc. 2211 West Casino Rd Everett, WA 98204 Ph 425-353-8833 www.magnumenergy.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Larry, Very likely it would work for the washer as well. Grainger (or another industrial supply company) has 10uF 370Vac oval can motor run caps for under 9 bucks. Regards, Brian Brian Faley Chief Engineer Magnum Energy Inc. 2211 West Casino Rd Everett, WA 98204 Ph 425-353-8833 www.magnumenergy.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 3:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue Brian, Would this also work for the Splendide washers? If not, have you come up with any solution yet? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 27, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Brian Faley wrote: Hi Kris, A solution to try would be to add a motor run capacitor across the line at the boiler. 10uF-20uf range may improve the crossover distortion enough to allow the boiler ignitor to operate properly. Start with 10uF. Regards, Brian Brian Faley Chief Engineer Magnum Energy Inc. 2211 West Casino Rd Everett, WA 98204 Ph 425-353-8833 www.magnumenergy.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Yes with Rogers-White controllers they do not like how the sine wave crosses the X axis in the sine wave. It is an Inverter sine wave quality problem. I have had this problem with Trace SW series too. Even with the 56 step sine wave it was an issue. Thanks Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - E - d...@solarwork.com - V 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 P Please consider the environment before printing this email From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 12:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Sorry Kris I got interrupted and sent this early. Repair options - replace inverters with cleaner sine wave inverters, replace controller in wood boiler, or add a small 120-120 VAC transformer that is relay controlled so it is only on when the boiler is called for. That last option is not really responsible but that and adding a PV module [or 2] to the array to offset the load may be the least expensive option. Thanks Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - E - d...@solarwork.com - V 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 P Please consider the environment before printing this email From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 12:59 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue Yes with Rogers-White controllers they do not like how the sine wave crosses the X axis in the sine wave. It is an Inverter sine wave quality problem. I have had this problem with Trace SW series too. Even with the 56 step sine wave it was an issue. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Kristopher, I have experienced this as well, but have no solution to advise. My last direct experience with this was about four years ago, when we installed a system using a Magnum 4448 inverter in a home system in which a high-efficiency electronically-controlled hydronic boiler was also installed at the same time. The particular boiler proved unable to start up reliably on the inverter, but would run reliably off of a generator. Initially we assumed that the problem was due to incorrect wiring by the heating contractor (the AC input line and neutral had been reversed). After this was corrected the problem persisted. Before we could dig deeper the contractor changed out the boiler to an equivalent model of a different brand. The problem went away. You may end up having to either change the inverter or change the boiler. Magnum's tech support showed some interest in pursuing this, even attempting to duplicate the problem, but we never got that far. You might wish to contact them about this - it's a legitimate problem. On a related note - has anyone had any issues with powerline-carrier lighting controls run off of a Radian? We haven't installed equipment yet, so have no way to test until then. We're supplying uninterruptible power to an upscale residential observatory that will have this type of lighting control. We have cautioned the GC that there's a possibility of incompatibility, and no database of collected data out there, and we don't assume liability for incompatibilities. But it sure would be nice to know if anyone else has seen issues. I don't yet have a lighting brand. Thank you, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 3/26/2012 12:51 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Have a look at a post from me back in 2009 concerning the Magnum inverter starting certain loads. May be the same issue: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/msg01946.html Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 26, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
In the case of the Splendide washer/dryer (see link in my previous post), it was definably the Magnum Energy inverter. I could not start that load (no pun). Since then we have tested several inverters with these washers and all work fine except for the Magnum. I must say that, other than this one fault, the Magnum has been an exceptional, US made inverter and I heartily recommend them. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 26, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Kristopher, I have experienced this as well, but have no solution to advise. My last direct experience with this was about four years ago, when we installed a system using a Magnum 4448 inverter in a home system in which a high-efficiency electronically-controlled hydronic boiler was also installed at the same time. The particular boiler proved unable to start up reliably on the inverter, but would run reliably off of a generator. Initially we assumed that the problem was due to incorrect wiring by the heating contractor (the AC input line and neutral had been reversed). After this was corrected the problem persisted. Before we could dig deeper the contractor changed out the boiler to an equivalent model of a different brand. The problem went away. You may end up having to either change the inverter or change the boiler. Magnum's tech support showed some interest in pursuing this, even attempting to duplicate the problem, but we never got that far. You might wish to contact them about this - it's a legitimate problem. On a related note - has anyone had any issues with powerline-carrier lighting controls run off of a Radian? We haven't installed equipment yet, so have no way to test until then. We're supplying uninterruptible power to an upscale residential observatory that will have this type of lighting control. We have cautioned the GC that there's a possibility of incompatibility, and no database of collected data out there, and we don't assume liability for incompatibilities. But it sure would be nice to know if anyone else has seen issues. I don't yet have a lighting brand. Thank you, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 3/26/2012 12:51 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Kris: This anecdote may not help, but maybe it will amuse: I had the unfortunate circumstance to reverse a hot and a neutral after rewiring an SW Plus inverter system. I destroyed a bunch of appliances, including a brand new gas furnace. The HVAC contractor replaced the control board for the furnace but although the previous control board had operated on inverter power, the new one would not. I ended up buying an entire new furnace (and refrigerator, and on-demand water heater and some very expensive LED light bulbs...). The take-away here is some appliances are on the border of working/not-working when powered by an inverter. Even an exact replacement control board will act differently than the unit it replaced. Good luck. William Miller At 11:51 AM 3/26/2012, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 http://www.legacysolar.comwww.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4294 - Release Date: 03/25/12 18:34:00 Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
I am puzzled because I have used and found the Magnum to start loads that other equally sized inverters could not start. I wonder if the hot surface ignitor is not acting like a resistor but somehow non linear. For the washer dryer the wave form was being distorted by the load and interfering with the controls? I have started a two HP pump with a single Magnum, but I never looked at the wave shape. Darryl From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue In the case of the Splendide washer/dryer (see link in my previous post), it was definably the Magnum Energy inverter. I could not start that load (no pun). Since then we have tested several inverters with these washers and all work fine except for the Magnum. I must say that, other than this one fault, the Magnum has been an exceptional, US made inverter and I heartily recommend them. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 26, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Kristopher, I have experienced this as well, but have no solution to advise. My last direct experience with this was about four years ago, when we installed a system using a Magnum 4448 inverter in a home system in which a high-efficiency electronically-controlled hydronic boiler was also installed at the same time. The particular boiler proved unable to start up reliably on the inverter, but would run reliably off of a generator. Initially we assumed that the problem was due to incorrect wiring by the heating contractor (the AC input line and neutral had been reversed). After this was corrected the problem persisted. Before we could dig deeper the contractor changed out the boiler to an equivalent model of a different brand. The problem went away. You may end up having to either change the inverter or change the boiler. Magnum's tech support showed some interest in pursuing this, even attempting to duplicate the problem, but we never got that far. You might wish to contact them about this - it's a legitimate problem. On a related note - has anyone had any issues with powerline-carrier lighting controls run off of a Radian? We haven't installed equipment yet, so have no way to test until then. We're supplying uninterruptible power to an upscale residential observatory that will have this type of lighting control. We have cautioned the GC that there's a possibility of incompatibility, and no database of collected data out there, and we don't assume liability for incompatibilities. But it sure would be nice to know if anyone else has seen issues. I don't yet have a lighting brand. Thank you, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 3/26/2012 12:51 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Darryl,
As best I can tell, it's not related to the size of the load, but to
the zero crossing of the waveform. I have also seen that the Magnum
will start surprisingly large loads because it allows a greater AC
voltage drop - I have seen down to 80 VAC on a 120 VAC output, where
other inverters would hold to a greater voltage drop limit, but
would shut down due to overload instead.
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
On 3/26/2012 6:16 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
I am puzzled because I have used and found the Magnum
to start loads that other equally sized inverters could not
start. I wonder if the hot surface ignitor is not acting
like a resistor but somehow non linear. For the washer
dryer the wave form was being distorted by the load and
interfering with the controls? I have starteda two HP pump
with a single Magnum, but I never looked at the wave
shape.
Darryl
From: "Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"
la...@starlightsolar.com
To:
al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent:
Monday, March 26, 2012 4:26 PM
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
In the case of the Splendide washer/dryer (see link
in my previous post), it was definably the Magnum
Energy inverter. I could not start that load (no pun).
Since then we have tested several inverters with these
washers and all work fine except for the Magnum. I
must say that, other than this one fault, the Magnum
has been an exceptional, US made inverter and I
heartily recommend them.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103
On Mar 26, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Allan Sindelar
wrote:
Kristopher,
I have experienced this as well, but have no
solution to advise. My last direct experience with
this was about four years ago, when we installed a
system using a Magnum 4448 inverter in a home
system in which a high-efficiency
electronically-controlled hydronic boiler was also
installed at the same time. The particular boiler
proved unable to start up reliably on the
inverter, but would run reliably off of a
generator. Initially we assumed that the problem
was due to incorrect wiring by the heating
contractor (the AC input line and neutral had been
reversed). After this was corrected the problem
persisted. Before we could dig deeper the
contractor changed out the boiler to an equivalent
model of a different brand. The problem went away.
You may end up having to either change the
inverter or change the boiler. Magnum's tech
support showed some interest in pursuing this,
even attempting to duplicate the problem, but we
never got that far. You might wish to contact them
about this - it's a legitimate problem.
On a related note - has anyone had any issues with
powerline-carrier lighting contro
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue
Darryl, I was able to operate the Splendide washer with a 600 watt made-in-China sine wave inverter. So load is not the issue. The same waveform distortion was present for both, and all subsequent, inverters. Larry On Mar 26, 2012, at 5:16 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: I am puzzled because I have used and found the Magnum to start loads that other equally sized inverters could not start. I wonder if the hot surface ignitor is not acting like a resistor but somehow non linear. For the washer dryer the wave form was being distorted by the load and interfering with the controls? I have started a two HP pump with a single Magnum, but I never looked at the wave shape. Darryl From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood boiler ignition issue In the case of the Splendide washer/dryer (see link in my previous post), it was definably the Magnum Energy inverter. I could not start that load (no pun). Since then we have tested several inverters with these washers and all work fine except for the Magnum. I must say that, other than this one fault, the Magnum has been an exceptional, US made inverter and I heartily recommend them. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 26, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Kristopher, I have experienced this as well, but have no solution to advise. My last direct experience with this was about four years ago, when we installed a system using a Magnum 4448 inverter in a home system in which a high-efficiency electronically-controlled hydronic boiler was also installed at the same time. The particular boiler proved unable to start up reliably on the inverter, but would run reliably off of a generator. Initially we assumed that the problem was due to incorrect wiring by the heating contractor (the AC input line and neutral had been reversed). After this was corrected the problem persisted. Before we could dig deeper the contractor changed out the boiler to an equivalent model of a different brand. The problem went away. You may end up having to either change the inverter or change the boiler. Magnum's tech support showed some interest in pursuing this, even attempting to duplicate the problem, but we never got that far. You might wish to contact them about this - it's a legitimate problem. On a related note - has anyone had any issues with powerline-carrier lighting controls run off of a Radian? We haven't installed equipment yet, so have no way to test until then. We're supplying uninterruptible power to an upscale residential observatory that will have this type of lighting control. We have cautioned the GC that there's a possibility of incompatibility, and no database of collected data out there, and we don't assume liability for incompatibilities. But it sure would be nice to know if anyone else has seen issues. I don't yet have a lighting brand. Thank you, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 3/26/2012 12:51 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I am assisting in troubleshooting a stand alone system with three stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters. The electric ignition of LP for the wood boiler will not fire from inverter power. As soon as we fire up the generator, the boiler ignites. Has anyone seen this before? Is there a solution? The boiler is a Central Boiler E-Classic 2400. Thanks in advance! -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 715-653-4295 www.legacysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings
