Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Chris Schaefer]

To All,

Since I have two Xantrex/Trace SW5548's that run my shop/office and home
(offgrid) I decided to take some time early this morning to  install a
MidNite and Outback BTS into one of the inverters to see first hand what
the results would be. Below is the results with the actual voltage @ 49.2.
The compensated voltage shown on the Trace screen was;
MidNite; 56.2
Outback: 55.2
While the original Trace bts returned a compensated voltage of 49.8. I did
allow for a 30 minute adjustment to the environment before recording values.
Thus I walked away proving to myself that you can't (as many of you have
pointed out) cross use either MidNite or Outback bts on the SW.
Ray thanks for the offer of the BTS but since Dave has graciously provided
us with the Xantrex/Schneider p/n 130-0004-01-01 I'm going to see if I
can't locate a couple through the normal vendors.

Thanks everyone,
Christopher



On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> From Schneider
>
> *Resolution:*
> Product Family Xantrex Part Number
> Conext XW, Conext SW, TR, Truecharge2*, XC chargers*, FSW2000* 808-0232-01
> Trace SW, CR*, DR, RV*, C series 130-0004-01-01
> Trucharge20+/40+*, Prosine 3.0* 808-0231
> RS/MS*, RV/GS series*, FSW3000*, FSW2012*, FSW3012*, Prosine 2.0* 809-0946
> FDM 458* / FDM Marine* 76-0022-00
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
>
> On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +, Lones Tuss 
> wrote:
>
> Hello All
>
> The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k negative coefficient.
>
> The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative coefficient.
>
> The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex
> inverters
>
>
>
> Good Day All,
>
>
>
> Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the
> older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had
> any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source
> for these?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer's
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com>
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: **ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

>From Schneider 

RESOLUTION:  

Product Family
Xantrex Part
Number

Conext XW, Conext SW, TR, Truecharge2*, XC chargers*, FSW2000*

808-0232-01

Trace SW, CR*, DR, RV*, C series
130-0004-01-01


Trucharge20+/40+*, Prosine 3.0*
808-0231

RS/MS*, RV/GS series*,
FSW3000*, FSW2012*, FSW3012*, Prosine 2.0*
809-0946

FDM 458* / FDM
Marine*
76-0022-00

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +, Lones Tuss 
wrote:  

Hello All 

The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k
negative coefficient. 

The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative
coefficient. 

The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment.


FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] ON
BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
 SENT: Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM
 TO:
re-wrenches 
 SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older
Trace/Xantrex inverters 

Good Day All,  

Running into a lot of missing or
chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking
for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do
you have a direct replacement source for these?   

Thanks,  


Christopher-

Chris Schaefer's
  [3]
 Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or
Cell 585-748-1870 
 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: _ch...@solarandwindfx.com [5]_ 

__


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."   -- 




Links:
--
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I have also seen this problem when tweaking XW and CSW's


ENVIRONMENT
There is a "Battery Temperature Coefficient" value that is
set to -84 and seems can't be changed. My battery bank's datasheet calls
for -108 mV/C. When this value is changed, and saved, the message "The
value could not be changed" is displayed.

CAUSE
Customer is using the
wrong Battery Type on the XW+'s Charger Settings

RESOLUTION
The Battery
Bank Type should be set for custom (in the custom battery settings), then
the Battery Temperature Coefficient will be adjustable.  
Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +, Lones Tuss 
wrote:  

Hello All 

The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k
negative coefficient. 

The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative
coefficient. 

The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment.


FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] ON
BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
 SENT: Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM
 TO:
re-wrenches 
 SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older
Trace/Xantrex inverters 

Good Day All,  

Running into a lot of missing or
chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking
for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do
you have a direct replacement source for these?   

Thanks,  


Christopher-

Chris Schaefer's
  [3]
 Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or
Cell 585-748-1870 
 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: _ch...@solarandwindfx.com [5]_ 

__


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."   -- 




Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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[4]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Lones Tuss]

Hello All
The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k negative coefficient.
The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative coefficient.
The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment.



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Chris Schaefer
Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM
To: re-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

Good Day All,

Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older 
Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck 
using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these?

Thanks,
Christopher-

Chris Schaefer’s
[http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png]<http://www.solarandwindfx.com>
Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
www.solarandwindfx.com<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com<mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com>

[http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Chris Schaefer]

Ray & All,

It is for an off-grid system with batteries in the basement along with an
auto start generator where the clients are only there during the summer
months. During winter months they keep the house at 45 degrees to avoid
freezing pipes up here in Northern NY. Solar is severely undersized. Will
be replacing batteries and adding solar. The original people that built the
home lived there year round were energy misers while the current client
that bought the place 4 years ago admit that they are energy hogs. Thus
I've got some work ahead of me for sure.

The bts is for the inverter and the old one was cut off and wrapped up
inside the battery cable side of the inverter. While the sensor part was no
where to be found. Certainly not in the battery box.

Thanks,
Christopher

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Bruce Geddes  wrote:

> I recall from a training seminar a long time ago that the Xantrex and
> Outback sensors were the same.  Don’t know if that is still the case but
> the Midnite are definitely different values as Steve has said.
>
> Bruce Geddes
>
> PowerOn
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *jay
> *Sent:* Sunday, 5 August 2018 10:39 a.m.
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex
> inverters
>
>
>
> HI Chris,
>
>
>
> Maybe someone else can confirm but I believe the OB and Midnite use the
> thermistors with the same values and are interchangeable.
>
> And both use same RJ-11 plug.
>
>
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Ray]

Is this for the charge controller or the inverter?   Is it on grid or 
off grid?  What is the temperature variation in the room?


I usually don't worry about a temp sensor on the inverter off grid, if 
the batteries are not seeing a big variation in temperature.  Since the 
inverter isn't used much for charging, except when the battery is low, I 
set the inverter charge voltage fairly high, and tell the customer to 
just use the generator to get up to 70% - 80%, then let the solar do the 
rest.  In this scenario the temp sensor really isn't coming into play.


However, If its an on grid backup system where the inverter is involved 
with charging on a daily basis, then yes, the temp sensor is important, 
again only if the battery room is seeing more than a 20 degree 
variation.  Also the temp sensor wires can be repaired: cut out the bad 
section and use outdoor rated telephone splices with the silicone 
sealant, and heat shrink over that.


As others mentioned, using the wrong sensor is going to cause way more 
trouble than its going to fix.  They have different resistance values 
and some have reverse logic from others.  I've seen faulty temp sensors 
literally cook batteries, so if you're not absolutely sure, don't 
connect it.


I have a few old Trace sensors, but there only going to a system that 
really needs them.  Contact me off list.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/5/18 7:01 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote:
It's a dual labeled 1997-2002 vintage Xantrex/Trace unit and the old 
BTS is yellow with an RJ-11 connector. Upgrading the client to a new 
bank of Surrettes and in order to be warranty compliant the system 
must have a BTS. So what have the older, wiser wrenches done for a 
replacement? Does anyone have one of these lying around that I could 
purchase? I'll contact Xantrex/Schneider on Monday to see if they are 
still available since they do still sell the C60 CC and perhaps the 
newer BTS are compatible.


Thanks,
Christopher

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:


What color wire? The old Xantrex SW & SW+ were yellow. I can't
remember the color of the Trace anymore...  --Dave


Bill the BTS are generally different.
You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a
Midnite sensor with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery
and the charger won't charge.
There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for
most companies.

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net>> wrote:

Fellow wrenches,
Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor
connects to the inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a
thermistor/other discrete component with the appropriate
output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the potentially
acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the
attachment is other than the terminal and again, the
connector is specific to each manufacturer.
Thanks for your input,
Bill Loesch
Solar 1
Saint Louis, MO
314 631 1094

-

From: "Chris Schaefer"
To: "re-wrenches"
Cc:
Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM
    Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older
Trace/Xantrex inverters

Good Day All,
Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp
sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for
potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another
vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these?
Thanks,
Christopher-

Chris Schaefer's
image 
/Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~
E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
<mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com>/

/image
/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Chris Schaefer]

It's a dual labeled 1997-2002 vintage Xantrex/Trace unit and the old BTS is
yellow with an RJ-11 connector. Upgrading the client to a new bank of
Surrettes and in order to be warranty compliant the system must have a BTS.
So what have the older, wiser wrenches done for a replacement?  Does anyone
have one of these lying around that I could purchase? I'll contact
Xantrex/Schneider on Monday to see if they are still available since they
do still sell the C60 CC and perhaps the newer BTS are compatible.

Thanks,
Christopher

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> What color wire? The old Xantrex SW & SW+ were yellow. I can't remember
> the color of the Trace anymore...  --Dave
>
>
>
> Bill the BTS are generally different.
>
> You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a Midnite sensor
> with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery and the charger won't
> charge.
>
> There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for most
> companies.
>
> On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM  wrote:
>
>> Fellow wrenches,
>>
>> Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the
>> inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component
>> with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the
>> potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the
>> attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific
>> to each manufacturer.
>>
>> Thanks for your input,
>>
>> Bill Loesch
>> Solar 1
>> Saint Louis, MO
>> 314 631 1094
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------
>> From: "Chris Schaefer"
>> To: "re-wrenches"
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex
>> inverters
>>
>> Good Day All,
>>
>> Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the
>> older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had
>> any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source
>> for these?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Christopher-
>>
>> Chris Schaefer's
>> [image: image] 
>>
>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  *
>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com
>> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>> *
>>
>>
>> *[image: image] *
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
>> willing to work and give to those who would not."
>> ___
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> --
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[jay]

HI Chris,

Maybe someone else can confirm but I believe the OB and Midnite use the 
thermistors with the same values and are interchangeable. 
And both use same RJ-11 plug.

jay
peltz power



> On Aug 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Chris Schaefer  wrote:
> 
> Good Day All,
> 
> Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older 
> Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck 
> using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these?
> 
> Thanks,
> Christopher- 
> Chris Schaefer’s
>  
> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: 
> ch...@solarandwindfx.com 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

What color wire? The old Xantrex SW  border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;
margin-left:5px; width:100%"> Bill the BTS are generally different.   You
definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a Midnite sensor with
an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery and the charger won't charge. 
 There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for most
companies.   
  On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM  wrote:   Fellow wrenches,  
Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the
inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component
with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the
potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the
attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific
to each manufacturer.Thanks for your input,   Bill Loesch Solar 1 Saint
Louis, MO 314 631 1094 

- From:
"Chris Schaefer" 
To: "re-wrenches"
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday August 4 2018
4:04:47PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older
Trace/Xantrex inverters

 Good Day All,   Running into a lot of missing or
chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking
for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do
you have a direct replacement source for these?   Thanks, Christopher-


Chris Schaefer's
 Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
 5115 South
Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
 _www.solarandwindfx.com [3] ~
E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com [4]_ 

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Steve Higgins]

Bill the BTS are generally different.

You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a Midnite sensor
with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery and the charger won't
charge.

There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for most
companies.

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM  wrote:

> Fellow wrenches,
>
> Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the
> inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component
> with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the
> potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the
> attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific
> to each manufacturer.
>
> Thanks for your input,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1
> Saint Louis, MO
> 314 631 1094
>
> -
> From: "Chris Schaefer"
> To: "re-wrenches"
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex
> inverters
>
> Good Day All,
>
> Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the
> older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had
> any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source
> for these?
>
> Thanks,
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> [image: image] 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
> *[image: image] *
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[solar1online]

Fellow wrenches,
Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the
inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete
component with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for
preservation in the potentially acid vapor environment, and provided
with glue when the attachment is other than the terminal and again,
the connector is specific to each manufacturer. 

Thanks for your input,
Bill LoeschSolar 1Saint Louis, MO314 631 1094

-From: "Chris Schaefer" 
To: "re-wrenches"
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex
inverters

  Good Day All,  
   Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for
the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements.
Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct
replacement source for these?   
   Thanks,   Christopher- 

Chris Schaefer’s
  [1]
 Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
 _www.solarandwindfx.com [2] ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com [3]_ 

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not." 

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--
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[RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters

[Chris Schaefer]

Good Day All,

Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the
older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had
any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source
for these?

Thanks,
Christopher-

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


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"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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