[RE-wrenches] kwh meters
I am using an analog GE kwhmeter on an outback system with battery backup to a protected loads panel. The AC in to the inverteris attached tothe bottom of one leg of the meter and the AC out of the inverter is connected to the top of the other leg. This should give me an accurate record of just the production from the system. The idea is that the ACIN that will power the protected loads panel at night will come in the bottom of one leg and turn the meter backwardsthen exit through the top of themeter going forward thus cancelling those kwh. out. I have a neutral hooked to the meter because I am using it to record 120V but I am not getting accurate readings with this configuration. Any suggestions on metering in this case? I need a utility grade kwh meter. Gary EastonNABCEP Certified Solar PVNABCEP Certified Solar Thermal APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER LTD.Stewart, Ohio 740-277-8498“I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”—Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters
Is it a Form 12-S meter? If not, that¹s the reason its not working. Here¹s an article you can refer to: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg16_QandA_3search= David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On 1/28/10 2:57 PM, g...@arp-solar.com g...@arp-solar.com wrote: I am using an analog GE kwh meter on an outback system with battery backup to a protected loads panel. The AC in to the inverter is attached to the bottom of one leg of the meter and the AC out of the inverter is connected to the top of the other leg. This should give me an accurate record of just the production from the system. The idea is that the AC IN that will power the protected loads panel at night will come in the bottom of one leg and turn the meter backwards then exit through the top of the meter going forward thus cancelling those kwh. out. I have a neutral hooked to the meter because I am using it to record 120V but I am not getting accurate readings with this configuration. Any suggestions on metering in this case? I need a utility grade kwh meter. Gary Easton NABCEP Certified Solar PV NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER LTD. Stewart, Ohio 740-277-8498 ³I'd put my money on solar energy I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.² Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters
Hi Gary, You did say you're using the neutral, so I'm assuming you've got the 5-jaw socket and meter (Form 12S). You also need to make sure the meter itself is non-detented. Once you reconfigure the socket to match the one shown in David's reference you should be good to go. Not sure which aspect(s) of utility grade you need. I'll assume you mean revenue grade accuracy. The generally accepted threshold for this is +/-2% overall. A lot of analog meters (most) are not certified as revenue grade when running in the backward direction. Forget about certified, they simply are all over the map with accuracy tolerance in the backward direction. For this reason, many were disqualified for use in Net Metering applications. Since your use is technically measuring the Net Generation, your accuracy may be off... Not as far off as some inverter manufacturers' displays have been in the past, but still possibly quite a bit off, relatively speaking. Think in terms of up to +/-5%. Don't know if this matters for your purposes or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there so you don't have to go all the way through the learning curve by yourself. Lonely curve, that one... If Net Generation accuracy is critical, you have three fine choices and many that aren't so fine. 1) The obvious easy one is to get confirmation that your meter is certified Bi-Directional /or qualified/certified for Net Metering. Occupants of Meter Meter Neverland are particularly paranoid person-objects. Gaining a qualified confirmation of said information may take some sleuthing. Don't bother trying to get information from GE. Start with the vendor who sold it to you. If you have friends who work in the meter shop of the local electric utility, you might want to talk with them. Hint: If you get a blank stare from the meter guy when you say Net Meter Just smile, excuse yourself, and go get a donut. 2) If #1 doesn't pan out, find a meter that does and use it. 3) Use two meters and do some subtraction. Pray for Sun! Matt Lafferty _ From: David Brearley Is it a Form 12-S meter? If not, that's the reason its not working. Here's an article you can refer to: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg16_QandA_3 http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg16_QandA_3search= search= On 1/28/10 2:57 PM, g...@arp-solar.com g...@arp-solar.com wrote: I am using an analog GE kwh meter on an outback system with battery backup to a protected loads panel. The AC in to the inverter is attached to the bottom of one leg of the meter and the AC out of the inverter is connected to the top of the other leg. This should give me an accurate record of just the production from the system. The idea is that the AC IN that will power the protected loads panel at night will come in the bottom of one leg and turn the meter backwards then exit through the top of the meter going forward thus cancelling those kwh. out. I have a neutral hooked to the meter because I am using it to record 120V but I am not getting accurate readings with this configuration. Any suggestions on metering in this case? I need a utility grade kwh meter. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters
That's it!! I finally got an answer today from a tech at the meter company and he said the same thing. I should have come here first. What a resource! Gary EastonNABCEP Certified Solar PVNABCEP Certified Solar Thermal APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER LTD.Stewart, Ohio 740-277-8498“I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”—Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh metersFrom: David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.comDate: Thu, January 28, 2010 4:03 pmTo: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgIs it a Form 12-S meter? If not, that’s the reason its not working. Here’s an article you can refer to:http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg16_QandA_3search=David Brearley, Senior Technical EditorSolarPromagazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™david.brear...@solarprofessional.comDirect: 541.261.6545On 1/28/10 2:57 PM, "g...@arp-solar.com" g...@arp-solar.com wrote: I am using an analog GE kwh meter on an outback system with battery backup to a protected loads panel. The AC in to the inverter is attached to the bottom of one leg of the meter and the AC out of the inverter is connected to the top of the other leg. This should give me an accurate record of just the production from the system. The idea is that the AC IN that will power the protected loads panel at night will come in the bottom of one leg and turn the meter backwards then exit through the top of the meter going forward thus cancelling those kwh. out. I have a neutral hooked to the meter because I am using it to record 120V but I am not getting accurate readings with this configuration. Any suggestions on metering in this case? I need a utility grade kwh meter. Gary EastonNABCEP Certified Solar PVNABCEP Certified Solar Thermal APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER LTD.Stewart, Ohio 740-277-8498“I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”—Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 ___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org ___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters
Here is a repost of this information from 20067 Todd Ok, I called Jake and he forwardedme to Brent Carper (253-395-6818) who works in the Puget Sound Energymetering department. I had a long conversation with him about how tometer battery based, grid tied inverters. The form 12s meter (recommended by Outback) is designed for 120/208 3phase so it is expecting to see 120º of phase difference between thetwo legs rather than 180º,and being analog meters use the same core for both meter coils, thephysics of this would suggest even an analog meter will not accuratelyread net power produced (but it will probably be only 1 or 2% off). The best way to accomplish this is with a digital, form 12s meter. Now,not any old form 12s meter will work (sigh). These meters come in threevarieties: 1- The most common default configuration is cumulative read. This will NOTwork. 2- The other two configurations are net register or 3- dual register Both of these (2 3 above) will work, although net register willdo the calculations for you and dual register (sometimes called dualfunction) will leave you with separate buy and sell totals that willneed to be manually added together at the end of each billing cycle. As far as I now know this is accurate information, but I have severalmeters coming that I am going to test out to confirm the above details.Hopefully Outback will annotate this on their green tag meter pdf. [http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_general/Form%2012S%20Green-Tag%20meter.pdf] http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_general/Form%2012S%20Green-Tag%20meter.pdf Todd Ian Woofenden, Home Power wrote: Hi Randy and Todd, Andy has actually changed jobs, and the new contact at PSE is: Jake Wade [mailto:jake.w...@pse.com] jake.w...@pse.com Green Power Program Implementer 425-462-3459 Best, Ian Todd, The latest contact I have for Puget Sound Energy, RE program, is: Andy Hemstreet Program Implementer, Renewables and Green Power Puget Sound Energy Office - 425 456-2633 [mailto:andrew.hemstr...@pse.com] andrew.hemstr...@pse.com Randy Brooks Brooks Solar, Inc. Solar Power for People 140 Columbia View Chelan, WA 98816 509-682-9646 [mailto:i...@brookssolar.com] i...@brookssolar.com [http://www.brookssolar.com/] www.BrooksSolar.com On Jun 30, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Serviceswrote: Kelly and others interested in this, Yes form 12s meters and sockets have 5 terminals. I am going to do some more testing on this next week, but it appears only analog meters will work with the Outback directions. If you wantto use a digital meter, it needs to be configured to net register. This should be clarified on the Outback green tag metering diagram. Who is your contact at PSE? I'd like to ask them what kind oftweaking they do to get the digital meters to work correctly. Todd Randy Brooks wrote: Todd, One thing the OutBack diagram does not mention is that the meter base requires an additional neutral socket for the 5th meter leg. If you meter base does not have one, that may be the problem. You can get a 5th socket adapter for your meter base from the meter supplier too. take care, Randy Brooks Brooks Solar, Inc. Solar Power for People 140 Columbia View Chelan, WA 98816 509-682-9646 [mailto:i...@brookssolar.com] i...@brookssolar.com On Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:57pm, g...@arp-solar.com said: I am using an analog GE kwh meter on an outback system with battery backup to a protected loads panel. The AC in to the inverter is attached to the bottom of one leg of the meter and the AC out of the inverter is connected to the top of the other leg. This should give me an accurate record of just the production from the system. The idea is that the AC IN that will power the protected loads panel at night will come in the bottom of one leg and turn the meter backwards then exit through the top of the meter going forward thus cancelling those kwh. out. I have a neutral hooked to the meter because I am using it to record 120V but I am not getting accurate readings with this configuration. Any suggestions on metering in this case? I need a utility grade kwh meter. Gary Easton NABCEP Certified Solar PV NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER LTD. Stewart, Ohio 740-277-8498 “I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.” —Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address:
Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters
Title: Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters The 12-S approach in the Solar Pro article only works with 120V inverter systems. I am facing a similar issue with our first XW system, which was chosen for this application because it's the only GTWB 120/240V single inverter unit. We also currently have a REC program as well as net metering. How can I make this work? Thank you.
Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters
Title: Re: [RE-wrenches] kwh meters You will have to put a meter on each 120 volt leg... just like on a dual outback system. Todd Allan Sindelar wrote: The 12-S approach in the Solar Pro article only works with 120V inverter systems. I am facing a similar issue with our first XW system, which was chosen for this application because it's the only GTWB 120/240V single inverter unit. We also currently have a REC program as well as net metering. How can I make this work? Thank you. Allan Sindelar Allan@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com David Brearley wrote: Is it a Form 12-S meter? If not, thats the reason its not working. Heres an article you can refer to: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg16_QandA_3search= David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On 1/28/10 2:57 PM, "g...@arp-solar.com" g...@arp-solar.com wrote: I am using an analog GE kwh meter on an outback system with battery backup to a protected loads panel. The AC in to the inverter is attached to the bottom of one leg of the meter and the AC out of the inverter is connected to the top of the other leg. This should give me an accurate record of just the production from the system. The idea is that the AC IN that will power the protected loads panel at night will come in the bottom of one leg and turn the meter backwards then exit through the top of the meter going forward thus cancelling those kwh. out. I have a neutral hooked to the meter because I am using it to record 120V but I am not getting accurate readings with this configuration. Any suggestions on metering in this case? I need a utility grade kwh meter. Gary Easton NABCEP Certified Solar PV NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER LTD. Stewart, Ohio 740-277-8498 I'd put my money on solar energy I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Todd Cory Todd Cory KE6SXS toddc...@finestplanet.com Mt. Shasta Energy Services License C-10 #811428 P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067 (530) 926-1079 I'd put my money on solar energy...I hope we don't have to wait till oil and coal run out before we tackle that." Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
