Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis
It just takes a bit longer to respond because of the steep Lion curve. It will respond in a minute or 2. It does not affect capacity at all. Just a bit different than LA. --Dave Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave > Hello Darryl, > > Quote "You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the voltage > drops so little your CC will not > necessarily pick-up.â > > We have sold hundreds of Li-ion batteries over the last 4 years. No one > has had a problem with a PV solar charge controller or battery charger > providing current when a load is applied. If the battery voltage is at > equilibrium with the charger, float mode and current basically zero, the > slightest load will be directed to the charge source as it attempts to > maintain voltage. > > Hey Jay, > > We sell Relion with cylindrical cells and prismatic cells from Elite Power > Solutions (GBS) and LiFeBlue Battery. We have never had a cell failure > with any battery yet so as for cell quality, all brands are working well. > The problems we have had are always with the EMS systems. > > My thoughts comparing the two battery types are one type has fewer points > of failure. In a 100AH 12 volt pack using cylindrical cells, you have many > dozens of batteries and connections compared to 4 to 16 prismatic cells. I > know Tesla cars have worked extremely well with 7000+ cylindrical cells > but he has spent millions making it work. In the Li battery market we are > involved with, Iâm not so sure the manufacturers have provided the same > level of QC. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On Oct 7, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I have only limited experience with Lithium batteries. But in that > experience, a module of small cylindrical cells will have a higher power, > faster charge, and discharge. For the same chemistry, the prism cells > will > have a little higher energy density. For long cycle life and slow aging, > the differences in battery additives meaning the manufacturer are > paramount. In using Li-ion there are a few tricks. The voltage is very > stable, so you can not use voltage for the state of charge. For LA you > will > float 13.4 forever, then when you draw power, the voltage drops. even at > low draw, the voltage drops to the 12.6 range. You must be careful of LI > because if you are floating, the voltage drops so little your CC will not > necessarily pick-up. Some manufacturers give you instruction via mod bus > or some form of communication. So ask your CC supplier and your battery > people good luck some do not even understand their own equipment. > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:16 AM, jay wrote: > >> To follow along with the lithium questions, >> >> Iâm wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs >> cylindrical lithium family batteries? >> >> My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling? >> >> Thanks >> >> jay > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis
Hello Jay and Larry. As I mentioned I have had experience with only 3 systems, I have another one coming up. The charge controller problem has occurred in all of my systems, But this is perhaps a misunderstanding on my part. I used manufactures data, trying to attain maximum life. As mentioned by others, I would not install a system without BMS built in. I am interested in powerwall-2 AC as it seems to have some advantage in no export, and the glamour of LI. I have not been able to get one, except through giving the project to a competitor. Does anyone else make a similar product? And does anyone have information on the actual product as far as pass-through and turn-down for no export systems? Thanks to both of you and others for the information. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hello Darryl, > > Quote "You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the voltage > drops so little your CC will not > necessarily pick-up.” > > We have sold hundreds of Li-ion batteries over the last 4 years. No one > has had a problem with a PV solar charge controller or battery charger > providing current when a load is applied. If the battery voltage is at > equilibrium with the charger, float mode and current basically zero, the > slightest load will be directed to the charge source as it attempts to > maintain voltage. > > Hey Jay, > > We sell Relion with cylindrical cells and prismatic cells from Elite Power > Solutions (GBS) and LiFeBlue Battery. We have never had a cell failure with > any battery yet so as for cell quality, all brands are working well. The > problems we have had are always with the EMS systems. > > My thoughts comparing the two battery types are one type has fewer points > of failure. In a 100AH 12 volt pack using cylindrical cells, you have many > dozens of batteries and connections compared to 4 to 16 prismatic cells. I > know Tesla cars have worked extremely well with 7000+ cylindrical cells but > he has spent millions making it work. In the Li battery market we are > involved with, I’m not so sure the manufacturers have provided the same > level of QC. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On Oct 7, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I have only limited experience with Lithium batteries. But in that > experience, a module of small cylindrical cells will have a higher power, > faster charge, and discharge. For the same chemistry, the prism cells will > have a little higher energy density. For long cycle life and slow aging, > the differences in battery additives meaning the manufacturer are > paramount. In using Li-ion there are a few tricks. The voltage is very > stable, so you can not use voltage for the state of charge. For LA you will > float 13.4 forever, then when you draw power, the voltage drops. even at > low draw, the voltage drops to the 12.6 range. You must be careful of LI > because if you are floating, the voltage drops so little your CC will not > necessarily pick-up. Some manufacturers give you instruction via mod bus > or some form of communication. So ask your CC supplier and your battery > people good luck some do not even understand their own equipment. > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:16 AM, jay wrote: > > > To follow along with the lithium questions, > > > > I’m wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs > > cylindrical lithium family batteries? > > > > My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling? > > > > Thanks > > > > jay > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis
Hello Darryl, Quote "You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the voltage drops so little your CC will not necessarily pick-up.” We have sold hundreds of Li-ion batteries over the last 4 years. No one has had a problem with a PV solar charge controller or battery charger providing current when a load is applied. If the battery voltage is at equilibrium with the charger, float mode and current basically zero, the slightest load will be directed to the charge source as it attempts to maintain voltage. Hey Jay, We sell Relion with cylindrical cells and prismatic cells from Elite Power Solutions (GBS) and LiFeBlue Battery. We have never had a cell failure with any battery yet so as for cell quality, all brands are working well. The problems we have had are always with the EMS systems. My thoughts comparing the two battery types are one type has fewer points of failure. In a 100AH 12 volt pack using cylindrical cells, you have many dozens of batteries and connections compared to 4 to 16 prismatic cells. I know Tesla cars have worked extremely well with 7000+ cylindrical cells but he has spent millions making it work. In the Li battery market we are involved with, I’m not so sure the manufacturers have provided the same level of QC. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 7, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: I have only limited experience with Lithium batteries. But in that experience, a module of small cylindrical cells will have a higher power, faster charge, and discharge. For the same chemistry, the prism cells will have a little higher energy density. For long cycle life and slow aging, the differences in battery additives meaning the manufacturer are paramount. In using Li-ion there are a few tricks. The voltage is very stable, so you can not use voltage for the state of charge. For LA you will float 13.4 forever, then when you draw power, the voltage drops. even at low draw, the voltage drops to the 12.6 range. You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the voltage drops so little your CC will not necessarily pick-up. Some manufacturers give you instruction via mod bus or some form of communication. So ask your CC supplier and your battery people good luck some do not even understand their own equipment. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:16 AM, jay wrote: > To follow along with the lithium questions, > > I’m wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs > cylindrical lithium family batteries? > > My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling? > > Thanks > > jay ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis
I have about 2 years experience with Prismatic but know of 5 offgrid apps that have been using them for 5 years. They are happy. In general, they are for DIY or hobbyist. The person/owner needs to be very sharp, Very! Most do not use a BMS and top balance charge. The first charge/balance is critical and must be done with high accuracy DVM that is repeatable over time. I think Prismatic is much better than cylindrical. You can ruin either quite easily if something or someone goes wrong. Using these with a client is asking for trouble. I would rather use an AGM at this time or something like LG, Tesla,Simplyphi or similar BMS based batteries. HTH --Dave Dave jayDave > To follow along with the lithium questions, > > Iâm wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs > cylindrical lithium family batteries? > > My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling? > > Thanks > > jay > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis
I have only limited experience with Lithium batteries. But in that experience, a module of small cylindrical cells will have a higher power, faster charge, and discharge. For the same chemistry, the prism cells will have a little higher energy density. For long cycle life and slow aging, the differences in battery additives meaning the manufacturer are paramount. In using Li-ion there are a few tricks. The voltage is very stable, so you can not use voltage for the state of charge. For LA you will float 13.4 forever, then when you draw power, the voltage drops. even at low draw, the voltage drops to the 12.6 range. You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the voltage drops so little your CC will not necessarily pick-up. Some manufacturers give you instruction via mod bus or some form of communication. So ask your CC supplier and your battery people good luck some do not even understand their own equipment. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:16 AM, jay wrote: > To follow along with the lithium questions, > > I’m wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs > cylindrical lithium family batteries? > > My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling? > > Thanks > > jay > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] lithium battereis
To follow along with the lithium questions, I’m wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs cylindrical lithium family batteries? My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling? Thanks jay ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
