Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Excellent point, sir. I have looked at quite a few from the attic, later when doing upgrades, and I haven't seen leaks. But NO, I have not carefully gone back on every install to confirm. No news is good news, but that still doesn't mean 100% leak free. Also, I'm working in a drier climate, where small leaks don't cause big problems. Actually many of the systems with L feet I've looked at are not even my own, and (horror) they were sealed with gobs of silicone. I'm doing an inspection on a place with hot water and PV on an shingle roof that is 15+ years old, L feet, no flashings, silicone, and I will do my best for the list, to get in there and really check from the attic side. Take photos if I can, and I'll loosen a few screws to check for any signs of rot around the screw hole. Really these days my favorite product might be a smallish flashing/ large L foot with butyl tape peel off on the bottom. It would go under the shingle above, so its an actualflashing, but not so far up that you get into the next row of nails, or have to cut the shingle much. We also need to really look at the sealant above the flashing and make sure the shingle above the mount is sealed down properly if disturbed. I think trouble with shingle roofs starts when wind and rain can blow back up under a loose shingle. What is the correct method to seal a shingle back down anyway? Heatgun? More roof approved caulking? Chime in ye of more roofing knowledge. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/28/2015 1:43 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (_including myself_) who is claiming no leaks after x-years. Are we assuming no leaks because the home/system owner has not reported any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to every install and actually getting up and looking around _inside the attic_, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no leaks? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com http://www.skyfireenergy.com/ email mailto:b...@skyfireenergy.com facebook https://www.facebook.com/SkyFireEnergy twitter https://twitter.com/SkyFireEnergy linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/283735?trk=tyahtrkInfo=tarId%3A1408655033432%2Ctas%3Askyfire%2Cidx%3A2-2-5 google https://plus.google.com/+SkyFireEnergy/ SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, m...@seesolar.com mailto:m...@seesolar.com wrote: I remember the early days of installing, which for us was early 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us with 4 threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our mounting methods since then. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 tel:760-403-6810 Building a Better Future For The Next Generation ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
To me the reports of not seeing leaks is not terribly reassuring. It’s not surprising when you consider that enough water has to get past tightly compacted shingles under an L foot, travel between the threads and the wood of a tightly threaded lag bolt, and then saturate attic insulation enough to migrate through drywall to be “seen”. Even though my 5 year warranty will have passed, what worries me (here in Florida) is that after 5 or 10 years of no leaks has passed a storm comes through and peels the array off the roof because dry rot has set in around the lag bolts reducing the pull out resistance of the rafters. I like to be able to tell my customers that I always use engineered flashings designed for the specific purpose of preventing water from damaging their home. I don’t want to cut corners on the one thing that every customer fears the most. Besides, it is your only shot at not voiding a roofing warranty that they may have. Kurt Johnsen Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer 621 SW 26th Place Gainesville, FL 32601 352-222-9495 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Excellent point, sir. I have looked at quite a few from the attic, later when doing upgrades, and I haven't seen leaks. But NO, I have not carefully gone back on every install to confirm. No news is good news, but that still doesn't mean 100% leak free. Also, I'm working in a drier climate, where small leaks don't cause big problems. Actually many of the systems with L feet I've looked at are not even my own, and (horror) they were sealed with gobs of silicone. I'm doing an inspection on a place with hot water and PV on an shingle roof that is 15+ years old, L feet, no flashings, silicone, and I will do my best for the list, to get in there and really check from the attic side. Take photos if I can, and I'll loosen a few screws to check for any signs of rot around the screw hole. Really these days my favorite product might be a smallish flashing/ large L foot with butyl tape peel off on the bottom. It would go under the shingle above, so its an actualflashing, but not so far up that you get into the next row of nails, or have to cut the shingle much. We also need to really look at the sealant above the flashing and make sure the shingle above the mount is sealed down properly if disturbed. I think trouble with shingle roofs starts when wind and rain can blow back up under a loose shingle. What is the correct method to seal a shingle back down anyway? Heatgun? More roof approved caulking? Chime in ye of more roofing knowledge. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 On 8/28/2015 1:43 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (*including myself*) who is claiming no leaks after x-years. Are we assuming no leaks because the home/system owner has not reported any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to every install and actually getting up and looking around *inside the attic*, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no leaks? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] b...@skyfireenergy.com [image: facebook] https://www.facebook.com/SkyFireEnergy [image: twitter] https://twitter.com/SkyFireEnergy [image: linkedin] https://www.linkedin.com/company/283735?trk=tyahtrkInfo=tarId%3A1408655033432%2Ctas%3Askyfire%2Cidx%3A2-2-5 [image: google] https://plus.google.com/+SkyFireEnergy/ [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, m...@seesolar.com wrote: I remember the early days of installing, which for us was early 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us with 4 threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our mounting methods since then. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 Building a Better Future For The Next Generation ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
I have been in attics and had to chase down water leaks, I have moved the hardware from older (15 + years) and there are a lot over leaks from the before flashing days and what I have seen is that once you remove the hardware, the bracket comes loose very easy as all or near all of the comp has cracked away from the surrounding material and there is a clear shot to the wood. Flashing is a must in my book Jerry On Aug 25, 2015 3:41 PM, frenergy frene...@psln.com wrote: I've dancing around the perimeter of this discussion but now wish to make that one more not to flash. There are many ways to do any job. I have been attaching things to roofs and cutting holes in roofs for a couple trades for 38 years and have yet to discover (or have a customer discover and contact me) any damage from water. When attaching feet to a roof for a PV rail system, I do not flash...I have but can't justify the time and cost for my perceived lack of benefit. When I cut a hole in a roof, I flash. I think its all about the correct caulking for the particular kind of roofing material (one type does not fit all), proper preparation of the attachment location, insuring there is plenty of wood for the fastener, laying a liberal bead and proper torque of the fastener. $.02 Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax solar powered since 1982 *From:* Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com *To:* 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:19 PM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define penetration, but it does say in the shingle manual: Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others. There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane. Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar attachments and fasteners we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Benn, To answer your (good) question one way, I won't speak for PV without flashings, but with literally tens of thousands of solar pool heating systems installed by all dealers that don't use flashings just in tiny Southwest Florida over the past 40 years, each system with upwards of 40 attachments with 1/4 lag screws, many with sub-par sealants, statistically we would have seen drastically more problems, and we haven't. Roof leaks are exceedingly rare and minor. Granted, it's not the same as PV in many ways, so I would be careful about drawing any conclusions. I wish there was a better way for solar pool heat, but even the cheapest flashings can add 10-15% to a project, making it non-competitive in a very tight market, and metal flashings could cut into the polymer panels very easily. The tried and true method has been too successful to stray from. I'm sure there are unique experiences from around the country with snow, freeze/thaw cycles, expansion/contraction, and other phenomenon that could differ drastically from place to place. Maybe we're trying to shoehorn a single solution into a problem that has more than one answer. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Benn Kilburn b...@skyfireenergy.com wrote: Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (*including myself*) who is claiming no leaks after x-years. Are we assuming no leaks because the home/system owner has not reported any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to every install and actually getting up and looking around *inside the attic*, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no leaks? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, m...@seesolar.com wrote: I remember the early days of installing, which for us was early 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us with 4 threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our mounting methods since then. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 Building a Better Future For The Next Generation ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (*including myself*) who is claiming no leaks after x-years. Are we assuming no leaks because the home/system owner has not reported any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to every install and actually getting up and looking around *inside the attic*, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no leaks? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] b...@skyfireenergy.com [image: facebook] https://www.facebook.com/SkyFireEnergy [image: twitter] https://twitter.com/SkyFireEnergy [image: linkedin] https://www.linkedin.com/company/283735?trk=tyahtrkInfo=tarId%3A1408655033432%2Ctas%3Askyfire%2Cidx%3A2-2-5 [image: google] https://plus.google.com/+SkyFireEnergy/ [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, m...@seesolar.com wrote: I remember the early days of installing, which for us was early 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us with 4 threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our mounting methods since then. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 Building a Better Future For The Next Generation ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
I remember the early days of installing, which for us was early 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us with 4 threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our mounting methods since then. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810Building a Better Future For The Next Generation From: jay jay.pe...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 7:44 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side. Question for those who don’t. How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade ja...@westcoastsustainables.com wrote: I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on roofing. Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office (530) 348-5301 Fax ja...@westcoastsustainables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Hi All, In the early days with PV and SWH we didn’t use flashings for most roofs (except tile). We used L-feet directly to the roofing with butyl (comp) or EPDM (metal) and pre-filled our holes and covered the attachments with good goop. We've never had a leak reported from this practice. And, here in western Washington State, it does get tested. We changed methods about 10 years ago deciding it would be good practice - both legally and professionally - to follow roofing industry guidelines that prescribe (if you consider attachments “penetrations”) the use of flashings. This spring we had our first leak, from a 2-year old system, on a 4:12 comp roof, with flashed L-feet. The leak occurred through a roofing nail hole that our installers had pulled but didn’t quite get covered up by the flashing or sealant. Even though the hole was still “shingled” by 2 layers of overlapping comp, the concentrated storm runoff from the module edges overwhelmed the ability of the shingles to shed the water. We fixed the problem, reroofing the section and fixing the damage to the ceiling, but not to our reputation and pride. Even though this issue was caused by a combination of procedural error and specific geometry, it’s easy to imagine this could happen again. Installers moving fast on roofs and not being able to see exactly where those nails they are pulling are coming from. And, when it’s cold out older comp shingles can crack when trying to get the nails out. If “best practices” for our industry could be established/recognized that prescribed our former methodology with L-feet, I would be happy to return to it (customers would also get lower costs). As of now, however, “best practices” for us mean following the roofing industry standards. -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:44, jay jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side. Question for those who don’t. How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade ja...@westcoastsustainables.com wrote: I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on roofing. Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office (530) 348-5301 Fax ja...@westcoastsustainables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Definitely flash, didn't do it one time, and it bit me. Michael D Nelson MD Electric Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:44 AM, jay jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side. Question for those who don’t. How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade ja...@westcoastsustainables.com wrote: I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on roofing. Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office (530) 348-5301 Fax ja...@westcoastsustainables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
That was exactly the failure I anticipated when using flashings. Tearing up the shingle to shingle adhesive and pulling those nails out is more disruptive than the actual attachment itself. I'm going to flash on an upcoming job for legal/ insurance reasons, but not because its better. I too have projects pushing 20 years, and we have never had a leak. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/26/2015 10:20 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind wrote: Hi All, In the early days with PV and SWH we didn’t use flashings for most roofs (except tile). We used L-feet directly to the roofing with butyl (comp) or EPDM (metal) and pre-filled our holes and covered the attachments with good goop. We've never had a leak reported from this practice. And, here in western Washington State, it does get tested. We changed methods about 10 years ago deciding it would be good practice - both legally and professionally - to follow roofing industry guidelines that prescribe (if you consider attachments “penetrations”) the use of flashings. This spring we had our first leak, from a 2-year old system, on a 4:12 comp roof, with flashed L-feet. The leak occurred through a roofing nail hole that our installers had pulled but didn’t quite get covered up by the flashing or sealant. Even though the hole was still “shingled” by 2 layers of overlapping comp, the concentrated storm runoff from the module edges overwhelmed the ability of the shingles to shed the water. We fixed the problem, reroofing the section and fixing the damage to the ceiling, but not to our reputation and pride. Even though this issue was caused by a combination of procedural error and specific geometry, it’s easy to imagine this could happen again. Installers moving fast on roofs and not being able to see exactly where those nails they are pulling are coming from. And, when it’s cold out older comp shingles can crack when trying to get the nails out. If “best practices” for our industry could be established/recognized that prescribed our former methodology with L-feet, I would be happy to return to it (customers would also get lower costs). As of now, however, “best practices” for us mean following the roofing industry standards. -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator ke...@whidbeysunwind.com mailto:ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:44, jay jay.pe...@gmail.com mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side. Question for those who don’t. How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade ja...@westcoastsustainables.com mailto:ja...@westcoastsustainables.com wrote: I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on roofing. Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office (530) 348-5301 Fax ja...@westcoastsustainables.com mailto:ja...@westcoastsustainables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side. Question for those who don’t. How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade ja...@westcoastsustainables.com wrote: I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on roofing. Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office (530) 348-5301 Fax ja...@westcoastsustainables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define penetration, but it does say in the shingle manual: Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others. There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane. Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar attachments and fasteners we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think unflashed fasteners are completely unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen kjenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
I've dancing around the perimeter of this discussion but now wish to make that one more not to flash. There are many ways to do any job. I have been attaching things to roofs and cutting holes in roofs for a couple trades for 38 years and have yet to discover (or have a customer discover and contact me) any damage from water. When attaching feet to a roof for a PV rail system, I do not flash...I have but can't justify the time and cost for my perceived lack of benefit. When I cut a hole in a roof, I flash. I think its all about the correct caulking for the particular kind of roofing material (one type does not fit all), proper preparation of the attachment location, insuring there is plenty of wood for the fastener, laying a liberal bead and proper torque of the fastener. $.02 Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax solar powered since 1982 From: Daniel Young To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define penetration, but it does say in the shingle manual: Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others. There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane. Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar attachments and fasteners we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think unflashed fasteners
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define penetration, but it does say in the shingle manual: Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others. There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane. Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar attachments and fasteners we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think unflashed fasteners are completely unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen kjenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
I agree with Ray on this, but think the neoprene boot here is so badly separated more likely because the house is settling around it. Still it cracked due to UV and would have failed anyway. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:20 PM To: Wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash http://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up .png http://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up. png Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. wa...@pureenergysolar.com mailto:pureenergyso...@hotmail.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net https://solarchargingstation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400 From: kjenergysyst...@gmail.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don't think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
WrenchesWe stay away from anything with a rubber type boot as it will shrink over time in the shade of the array or not. You all night want to look at the sunmodo out of Washington. Have had no leak issues or installation issues, there is no exposed rubber and the flashing is malleable and can be shaped around the roofing materials and does not lift up on the cornersJerrySent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: William Dorsett <wmdors...@sbcglobal.net> Date:08/08/2015 9:51 AM (GMT-10:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash I agree with Ray on this, but think the neoprene boot here is so badly separated more likely because the house is settling around it. Still it cracked due to UV and would have failed anyway.Bill DorsettManhattan, KSFrom: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne IrwinSent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:20 PMTo: WrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flashhttp://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up.pngWayne Irwin,PresidentLicense #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar ContractorPure Energy Solar International Inc. wa...@pureenergysolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.comhttp://SolarChargingStation.net352 377-6527 Office352 336-3299 FaxThe Sun Is Always Shining!The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400From: kjenergysyst...@gmail.comTo: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flashNot that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this.Kurt JohnsenOn Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote:"If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. "By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof.Just sayin'...Jason SzumlanskiOn Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote:Ray:I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof.If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment.(The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.)Sincerely,William MillerLic 773985millersolar.com805-438-5600From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray WaltersSent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flashMy opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent.I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing.Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well.I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake).___List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
We did a shake roof, and used a quick mount flashing ( I believe) that was 18 x 18. According to the directions, we had to use a roofing bar to pull out the nails to insert the flashing up under the shake. Missing nails the shakes were not secure on the neds, so we ended up using sealant to try and hold the ends down over the flashing. I felt the roof integrity suffered, but of course I can't believe that shake roofs are even a viable roofing system, so that's another story. On asphalt roofs, you need to cut part of the shingle away and also remove nails from under the layer above. THe nails can tear through both shingle layers when pulled, and you are now mising some of the original roofing structure. You are also pulling apart the adhesive that holds the shingles down to the layer below, leaving them vulnerable to wind. Working with aging shingles on a cold day they may tear or crack, while on a hot day you end up loosing some of the gravel. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against flashings, I just question other folks insistence that we are not living up to NABCEP values if we elect to not use them. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/7/2015 12:08 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray Can you elaborate on how a large flashing can cause more damage than it prevents? Thanks Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-876 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
It may be helpful to distinguish between exposed-fastener metal roofs and other roofing systems. If you’re working on a metal roof that is attached with exposed fasteners, I don’t know of any practical solution for retrofitting PV without adding more exposed fasteners. And, yes, the mastic under the L-foot will likely outlast the waterproofing around the roof attachments. However, according to conversations I’ve had with James Kirby, exposed fastener metal roofs are not an NRCA-approved/recognized roofing system. The waterproofing methods on exposed-fastener metal roofs are inherently inconsistent with NRCA standards. Other roofing systems are consistent with NRCA standards. If you don’t use flashing with these NRCA-approved roofing systems, your PV attachment method is going to compromise the waterproofing for the roof system. You can’t really argue that point, because there are established standards that apply to flashing and waterproofing according to roof type. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, right? Same goes for vents with boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. I realize that logic escapes code writers and interpreters sometimes, but I think rational people can see it both ways. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Both issues have interpretations and preferences, most with merit and based on lots of experience. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think unflashed fasteners are unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen kjenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Hi William; First, a sealed L foot is not a sealant only attachment system. It has quite a bit of surface area beyond the hole just like a flashing, and has mechanical attachment through the roof to the structure (which a flashing often does not). I consider an L foot to be a mini flashing for a mini penetration. Its relative. A propanel screw has a 1/2 rubber washer for a 3/16 screw, and is accepted by the roofing industry and IBC. A 2 x2 L foot base with a 5/16 high strength lag and sealant is much more seal relative to the penetration. A 12 x 12 flashing is used for penetrations as large as 4 plumbing vents, and depends on the rubber Oatey boot to seal, which most of us know will dry rot in 5-10 years. It's accepted by the roofing industry too, so I'm not that impressed with the roofing industry's judgement to be honest. I do agree, that overlapping layers so that gravity helps shed the water is a good concept, but can't always be adhered to, especially on metal roofs for instance. However, I will also mention that while I am comfortable with L feet, and think they do meet code; I am considering flashings on my next asphalt roof project. I've made many changes to my practices over the years, not always because I though it was necessary, but instead to keep up with the Solar Jones. Have a good weekend, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/6/2015 1:53 PM, William Miller wrote: Daniel: Good question, and worthy of revisiting. As a contractor and businessman, I am obligated to reduce risk exposure by using best evolved practices. This requires I used modern, purpose-built, approved attachment hardware. To my knowledge, these are all flashed. No roofing contractor will honor a warranty on sealant-only attachments. On pitched roofs, gravity is the main factor in shedding rain water and flashed systems accomplish this. Thanks for bringing this up. William On Aug 6, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com mailto:dyo...@dovetailsolar.com wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/6/2015 12:59 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: Hi fellow Wrenches, Flashing - We have ~30 years experience with ~700 systems dating back to 1980 here in the Northeast primarily on asphalt shingles. Standard attachment method on these historic systems and currently for us is a lagged foot bedded in silicone. We've seen no leaks including the historic systems as long as there was solid attachment to framing and the foot size was big enough to not crush the roofing. Our current technique is to use a single lag through the center of a 1.5 x 5 foot. Bed the foot 100% and run the lag in coated as well. Fillet all gush out (you can look these terms up : ). Don't use GE silicone below 45F - it will never cure. For aspahlt here in the NE, I feel as though the flashing products are OK but actually create more roof liability as they require the releasing of shingles at a minimum. Conrad Geyser Cotuit Solar LLC NAPCEP PV and Thermal On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com mailto:m...@solar-energy-solutions.com wrote: Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 tel:%28877%29%20312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com mailto:m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don't think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 http://www.millersolar.com/ millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Hi Ray Can you elaborate on how a large flashing can cause more damage than it prevents? Thanks Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-876 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
http://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up.png Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. wa...@pureenergysolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400 From: kjenergysyst...@gmail.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1 conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3x3 or 4 x 4 L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Daniel: Good question, and worthy of revisiting. As a contractor and businessman, I am obligated to reduce risk exposure by using best evolved practices. This requires I used modern, purpose-built, approved attachment hardware. To my knowledge, these are all flashed. No roofing contractor will honor a warranty on sealant-only attachments. On pitched roofs, gravity is the main factor in shedding rain water and flashed systems accomplish this. Thanks for bringing this up. William On Aug 6, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Tump, Glad you feel you have a superior method. Please feel free to use it but do not assume that your process is superior for others and hence infer an alleged best practice. Silicone does indeed react with aluminum; it bonds with it by etching the surface. This is a good thing. I agree with you on looking out for polyurethane products (some made by Sika) that asphalt degrades! No need to wander far, silicone works great and stays flexible indefinitely. Polyurethane has some great properties but is not oil or bitumen(asphalt) resistant. Conrad On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Tump t...@swnl.net wrote: Silicone is not a roof mastic and it does react to Alu despite your record w/ your historic installation methods. We and our industry are now in the 21st century with 21 century requirements and many hi quality roof mastic sealants. The way I figure it is that I am a professional solar installer, I am not a roofer nor a sealant engineer but they have provided our industry with requirements and products to ensure my clients receive hi level of quality installations despite the costs. On Aug 6, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: This started as an asphalt shingle attachment discussion, so it's important to note that many of the sealants from Sika are NOT compatible with asphaltic/bitumunous surfaces. Many competitors are still using products from this company that are specifically noted by the manufacturer as not compatible with the materials being sealed. Make sure your sealant is compatible with the roof! On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* *jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com* jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 Mail Attachment.gif http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org -- Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Hi fellow Wrenches, Flashing - We have ~30 years experience with ~700 systems dating back to 1980 here in the Northeast primarily on asphalt shingles. Standard attachment method on these historic systems and currently for us is a lagged foot bedded in silicone. We've seen no leaks including the historic systems as long as there was solid attachment to framing and the foot size was big enough to not crush the roofing. Our current technique is to use a single lag through the center of a 1.5 x 5 foot. Bed the foot 100% and run the lag in coated as well. Fillet all gush out (you can look these terms up : ). Don't use GE silicone below 45F - it will never cure. For aspahlt here in the NE, I feel as though the flashing products are OK but actually create more roof liability as they require the releasing of shingles at a minimum. Conrad Geyser Cotuit Solar LLC NAPCEP PV and Thermal On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com wrote: Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
I'm with Jason. Even though for years we installed without flashing, we now use it on every job. It is code and besides, why take the chance? We use Snap N Rack flashing very successfully in Maine, where snow, ice, rain and large heat/cold expansion/contractions make flashing a great insurance. On really shallow roofs we use Eterna-Bond (dual side adhesion, 3 inch tape) under the flashing. Daryl Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
As NABCEP certified installers, the signed agreement states that; we as Pros
will use the IBC and other applicable codes for design installation methods.
I will say that I loose jobs due to the additional cost of components labor
to install flashings. It is very frustrating having my local competition
continue to squirt the L foot n go..
Our society, despite long winded explanations to a potential client the
benefits of flashing, still are driven by the short term savings despite
the long term liability cost of roof replacements.
The other advantage of flashing is the improved long term output w/ the
additional air circulation under the modules. Flash or walk!I sleep
better when the ol noreaster comes a howeling.
On Aug 6, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
If we are talking code, we should also point out how people are getting
away without using flashings and why AHJs are not requiring them. What I
have seen is that a fastener is not considered a penetration. The argument
used frequently is that the thousands of screws that attach an exposed
fastener metal roof are not flashed. The argument goes that the codes
sections cited be Andrew are intended for large openings like roof vents and
plumbing vents. If the screw occupies the space of the penetration and is
further sealed with sealant or a gasket, there is no flashing required. You
could extend this argument to shingle nails that go through the roof plane
depending on how you define it.
Don't kill the messenger - I'm just pointing out the logic/argument made
against the requirement for flashings.
I'll reiterate that my vote is to flash!
Jason
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Truitt atru...@gmail.com wrote:
Flash! It provides a better, longer-lasting seal, and its a Code requirement
in most jurisdictions. From the IBC via the Quickmount PV website:
image.png
If one chooses to attach a footing directly to the roof without an integrated
flashing then an insurance option is to install an 8 step-flashing under
the shingle course above the penetration. This works better for railed
systems than railless since the whole footing assembly can be covered by the
modules.
For a brighter energy future,
Andrew Truitt
Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC
(202) 486-7507
LinkedIn Profile
Company Website
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66
Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com
wrote:
Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the
wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel
free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there.
I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount
or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good
example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech
http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing
some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data
from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road
(thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof
seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and
cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs
ago.
Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash)
With Regards,
Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
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Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
40+ years of experience from the solar pool industry shows that shingle roof attachments without flashing with proper sealant and methods can be very successful. Typical pool heating systems involve 50+ attachments done without flashing. BUT, that experience is primarily based on two things that differ from the PV industry. First, the hardware for solar pool heat is designed specifically for this installation method. More importantly, the expansion and contraction issue does not really exist in the same sense. Solar pool heaters and straps that hold them down are inherently flexible to an extent, and the panels float under the tie-downs. Aluminum rails are rigid, and I can see expansion and contraction over long rail sections having a much greater degree of impact on an L-foot or standoff, especially given the leverage available with a taller attachment. This same issue exists with rail-less systems because the modules are rigid and presumably have a different coefficient of expansion than the roof. On the other hand, I don't think there is enough study and evidence to say definitively that a flashing-less PV system is necessarily detrimental to all shingle roofs, and most I have seen have been trouble-free going as long as 15 years. Where I have seen problems is where L-feet are tightened too much or too little, or were installed at angles that dug into the shingle with the sharp edge of the aluminum. I can see how a wider base would be smart for a manufacturer trying to get away without flashing. With all that said, my conclusion and vote is why risk it? Flash it. I find it to be a solid competitive advantage over those that don't anyway. The race to the bottom for the cheapest and least labor intensive installation method is not necessarily good for the industry. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Silicone is not a roof mastic and it does react to Alu despite your record w/ your historic installation methods. We and our industry are now in the 21st century with 21 century requirements and many hi quality roof mastic sealants. The way I figure it is that I am a professional solar installer, I am not a roofer nor a sealant engineer but they have provided our industry with requirements and products to ensure my clients receive hi level of quality installations despite the costs. On Aug 6, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: This started as an asphalt shingle attachment discussion, so it's important to note that many of the sealants from Sika are NOT compatible with asphaltic/bitumunous surfaces. Many competitors are still using products from this company that are specifically noted by the manufacturer as not compatible with the materials being sealed. Make sure your sealant is compatible with the roof! On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 Mail Attachment.gif From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org t...@swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine Northern
[RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
This started as an asphalt shingle attachment discussion, so it's important to note that many of the sealants from Sika are NOT compatible with asphaltic/bitumunous surfaces. Many competitors are still using products from this company that are specifically noted by the manufacturer as not compatible with the materials being sealed. Make sure your sealant is compatible with the roof! On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* *jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com* jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org -- Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Jarmo, years ago Sikaflex was thought to be the best solution, unto it was discovered that according to the manufacturer it is not compatible with asphalt shingles and their petroleum based components. Hopefully no one is still using it in that application. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -Original Message- From: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: 8/6/2015 13:34 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service
