Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
Dan - Thanks for sharing this information - I found it an interesting read. It's always good to review the different factors which may effect module output and longevity. Only time will really tell. In quick review, it sounds to me like encapsulation materials and methods, soldering quality, cell structure, overall quality control, etc are some of the big items which will determine module longevity. I'm sure there are many more factors and details which I'm missing. As I think Bill Brooks mentioned maybe making PV modules isn't as easy as people think... -August Luminalt Energy Corporation O: 415.564.7652 M: 415.559.1525 F: 650.244.9167 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of danr...@scinternet.net Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules All, In the spirit of full disclosure, I work for Conergy in applications engineering, and we're distributors of CSI modules. (Michael, I hope I'm not out of line commenting from this perspective). Keep in mind that CSI (Canadian Solar Inc.) is one of several manufacturers selling modules with cells made from solar grade silicon or Upgraded Metallurgical Grade (UMG) silicon. UMG is a less refined product than polysilicon (not to be confused with polycrystalline), from which the standard monocrystalline and polycrystalline cells are produced. Cells produced from UMG silicon are known to have greater levels of impurities, which lead to a greater degree of charge recombination within the cell -meaning fewer electrons make it out of the cell to do work. Consequently, the cells have a lower power/unit area output. This is why some of the CSI modules have lower power output per unit area than comparably sized modules. CSI also makes modules using cells produced from polysilicon, and these modules have power densities comparable to other polysilicon-cell modules. Here's the rub with CSI: Both lines of modules -the UMG line and the Polysilicon line, use the same basic model numbers. The CS6P line of modules uses 60 6 square cells. The UMG cell modules are referred to as e modules in the CSI literature. Typically, the CS6P modules in the 160 - 200 watt range will be the e-modules, and the CS6P models from 200 - 230 W are the polysilicon modules. It's best to look at Canadian Solar's web site to figure out which module you're actually looking at. CSI has had some labeling issues, too, which has caused some consternation for folks using the e-modules in CA under the CSI rebate program. I understand that CSI is addressing the problem. What I've seen of and read about UMG modules (including the CSI e-modules) suggests that there are some issues with UMG that must be addressed in order to use it as a PV cell material. Apparently, the purification processes for UMG are proprietary to the various processors making the raw materials, and making cells from UMG silicon is also a touchy process that's closely held by those making them. The types and levels of impurities vary, so purification is a moving target, and it's difficult to get a consistent product. From what I've read, UMG, because of the impurities, degrades somewhat quickly initially, then stabilizes and should remain predictably stable over the life of the module. This is reflected by CSI in their module warranty for the e-modules, which is comparable to other polysilicon modules. It is known that, due to the impurities, back-currents in UMG cells can lead to hot spots. UMG modules are less shade tolerant as a consequence. In the case of the CSI e-mod ules, the j-box is loaded with diodes -5, if my memory serves me. The reason is that there are fewer cells in each string within the module that's protected by a bypass diode. This is the manufacturer's way of dealing to some degree with the shade intolerance. Other module manufacturers, from what I read, are less forthright about their use of UMG cells -to their credit, CSI does not obfuscate the fact that they have a product line that uses UMG. I've been somewhat skeptical of UMG modules and have withheld judgement of the CSI e-modules, waiting for field results. I have but a fraction of the experience of many among this august group, and I have no need to promote product for Conergy or anybody else. What I have seen so far, among the few systems I'm monitoring, is that the CSI modules are performing to spec, and aren't failing to any significant degree. That said, the CSI e-module is intended to be a lower cost product -that's the presumed niche for UMG in the first place. Time will tell if UMG and other less expensive technologies are worth the money saved. I hope this information is somewhat helpful. Caveat emptor. Further! Dan Rice Conergy and Abundant Sun (solar) (-Bill, I got your acronym already...) --- penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote
Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
Holt, No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole misnomer of Canadian Solar is enough to turn me off to them. Bob-O On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly appreciated. Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco TX. 76712 254-751-9111 www.holteksolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
Conergy (not our favorite distributor aymore) has been pushing them and offering very low prices. We haven't used any, but you might talk with Jeremy there; he'll give you a straight answer. 505 473-3800, X4472. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.PositiveEnergySolar.com http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O Schultze Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules Holt, No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole misnomer of Canadian Solar is enough to turn me off to them. Bob-O On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly appreciated. Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco TX. 76712 254-751-9111 www.holteksolar.com http://www.holteksolar.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
Interesting, not mine either. Having used Sanyos for quite a long time, I then I had a customer w/ a low voltage application request one. Can you say Barn Door? -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:40 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules Conergy (not our favorite distributor aymore) has been pushing them and offering very low prices. We haven't used any, but you might talk with Jeremy there; he'll give you a straight answer. 505 473-3800, X4472. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.PositiveEnergySolar.com http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O Schultze Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules Holt, No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole misnomer of Canadian Solar is enough to turn me off to them. Bob-O On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly appreciated. Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco TX. 76712 254-751-9111 www.holteksolar.com http://www.holteksolar.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
We have installed about 20k of these modules, largely off grid. I would make these recommendations: Install on good quality mounting. We have almost exclusively been installing these on DPW top of pole mounts. The frames are not particularly beefy but they are not flimsy, either, and a good mounting system should compensate. That said, we will not use them in our Caribbean installations due to hurricane potential. Install where the people have plenty of room. As Tump said, these things are doors (39 5/8 x 64 or so), but when our customers have more room than money we install them. We installed some CSI 200's yesterday and today installed an array of Sanyo 195's and the difference was pretty obvious. CSI panels have met the same specs and pass muster other manufacturers have had to to achieve UL approval. They are not for everyone I suspect, but they are meeting a niche market, are UL approved and I think are a decent product. Perhaps in a few years I'll feel differently but the ones we have in the field are performing well and have been through some big winds without issues. As I said, time will tell... Daryl DeJoy Penobscot Solar Design Canadian Solar modules are most definitely made in China. I guess they couldn't get away with branding American Solar and probably didn't want Mexican Solar. Heck, everyone likes Canadians. The Strong frame is not very rigid and flexes too much like most Chinese modules. - Original Message - From: Bob-O Schultze mailto:bo...@electronconnection.com To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules Holt, No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole misnomer of Canadian Solar is enough to turn me off to them. Bob-O On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly appreciated. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
Marco and Joel, In the latest version of the Expedited Permit Process, I was required to remove references to real manufacturers in my example problem. I made up a company called American Solar in true Canadian Solar style. It is really a shortened version of the company American Solar Systems, which inevitably would be shortened to the obvious acronym to give credit where credit is due... Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:15 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules Canadian Solar modules are most definitely made in China. I guess they couldn't get away with branding American Solar and probably didn't want Mexican Solar. Heck, everyone likes Canadians. The Strong frame is not very rigid and flexes too much like most Chinese modules. - Original Message - From: Bob-O Schultze mailto:bo...@electronconnection.com To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules Holt, No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole misnomer of Canadian Solar is enough to turn me off to them. Bob-O On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly appreciated. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
