Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
Similar to my previous contention about module warranties, as PV module and microinverter prices plummet, it becomes less important to squeeze every watt out of a module. True, we have limited physical space to deal with, but ultimately it boils down to $/watt, or more accurately $/watt-hour. If standardization results in significantly lower costs with some lost efficiency, does it really matter? Something to think about... Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 9:24 PM To: William Miller; RE-Wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 William It seems like the product tries to be everything to all mod manu's, which is hard to do, at best. Don't know if its a limitation in the electronics or design architecture. Could also be a strategic position to clamp down on what can be plugged into the circuit per NEC to limit their exposure to liability and keeping up with the myriad of modules hitting the market every month. As you point out, its a delicate balance- insolation vs max harvest. Sites that are free and clear of any shading are penalized, so to speak. I suspect they are aware of this design challenge and in the future, we will see matched inverters to the mod wattage output to not leave any watts on the table. Within 24 months, we could even see things go a different direction- mods labeled AC rating first and DC second. If the inverter is built into the modules already, this make the language universal, like virtually all AC wiring in a home. Keith From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 Keith: Her's my guess: Through the MPPT algorithm. The processor indicates near maximum output, the MPPT impedance reduces to throttle back power production. This is pure speculation, but I'm stickin' with it (untold told otherwise). Throwing away power? Yes. If MPPT is not at maximum power transfer at all times then your investment in PV is not earning it's full return. However, your inverter investment is not earning it's full return during the many hours of less than optimum insolation. These are the two factors to balance in system design. William At 01:01 PM 8/24/2011, you wrote: David, et al Yes, their literature states max output power of 215. Not sure how that is controlled, except for electronically. So this could be the shunt, so to speak and must take into consideration voltage to follow some algorithm to keep things humming along at that threshold. Having said this- are we throwing away power then? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
I think the thing that I still haven't seen mentioned, is printed on the device itself, it's nameplate says 215 @.95 power Factor. Which would mean, at unity it would be higher... Another shining example of this company not telling the whole story in their documentation. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
Do the 215's output more than 215 Watts? From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:21 AM To: RE-Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 Hey gang With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website, they state you can put up to 17 modules on a string. Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the napkin- 235 watts/240 volts = .97 amps. 17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the current higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting? Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to 20 amp circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a few other changes. As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone, it seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to reflect this. Thoughts, comments? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
The inverter should be current-limited on its output. The other Enphases have a higher output power than rated (199 @ 190, 219 @ 210, if memory serves from earlier list posts), so this may have a similar window. 215Wac max inverter output / 240V = 0.896 0.896 x 17 = 15.23A 15.23A x 1.25 20A so it's OK. As long as the inverter output is actually 225W or less, you can fit 17 on a 20A circuit. As before, you'd have the inverter limiting output when the high-power modules are actually performing near or above STC. There will certainly be times during the year where the inverters are maxed out but those times will be a small portion. Enphase had some documentation on their site about this where they claimed it wasn't worth worrying about, but it's a site-specific question that the installer should answer. On 2011/8/24 0:20, Keith Cronin wrote: Hey gang With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website, they state you can put up to 17 modules on a string. Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the napkin- 235 watts/240 volts = .97 amps. 17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the current higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting? Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to 20 amp circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a few other changes. As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone, it seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to reflect this. Thoughts, comments? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
According to my discussions with Enphase on this subject, the M215 can actually put out 225 watts continuous. Marv? Please confirm. marco The inverter should be current-limited on its output. The other Enphases have a higher output power than rated (199 @ 190, 219 @ 210, if memory serves from earlier list posts), so this may have a similar window. 215Wac max inverter output / 240V = 0.896 0.896 x 17 = 15.23A 15.23A x 1.25 20A so it's OK. As long as the inverter output is actually 225W or less, you can fit 17 on a 20A circuit. As before, you'd have the inverter limiting output when the high-power modules are actually performing near or above STC. There will certainly be times during the year where the inverters are maxed out but those times will be a small portion. Enphase had some documentation on their site about this where they claimed it wasn't worth worrying about, but it's a site-specific question that the installer should answer. On 2011/8/24 0:20, Keith Cronin wrote: Hey gang With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website, they state you can put up to 17 modules on a string. Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the napkin- 235 watts/240 volts = .97 amps. 17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the current higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting? Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to 20 amp circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a few other changes. As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone, it seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to reflect this. Thoughts, comments? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
David, et al Yes, their literature states max output power of 215. Not sure how that is controlled, except for electronically. So this could be the shunt, so to speak and must take into consideration voltage to follow some algorithm to keep things humming along at that threshold. Having said this- are we throwing away power then? Keith From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 The inverter should be current-limited on its output. The other Enphases have a higher output power than rated (199 @ 190, 219 @ 210, if memory serves from earlier list posts), so this may have a similar window. 215Wac max inverter output / 240V = 0.896 0.896 x 17 = 15.23A 15.23A x 1.25 20A so it's OK. As long as the inverter output is actually 225W or less, you can fit 17 on a 20A circuit. As before, you'd have the inverter limiting output when the high-power modules are actually performing near or above STC. There will certainly be times during the year where the inverters are maxed out but those times will be a small portion. Enphase had some documentation on their site about this where they claimed it wasn't worth worrying about, but it's a site-specific question that the installer should answer. On 2011/8/24 0:20, Keith Cronin wrote: Hey gang With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website, they state you can put up to 17 modules on a string. Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the napkin- 235 watts/240 volts = .97 amps. 17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the current higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting? Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to 20 amp circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a few other changes. As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone, it seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to reflect this. Thoughts, comments? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
All, Please note that I left Enphase about one year ago, and joined John Berdner at SolarEdge. To answer the question, virtually all inverters will deliver more power than their rating. The Max power test for listing on the CEC list of eligible inverters requires a full power run at elevated temperature for 3 hours. At the end of that test, the power rating listed on the CEC site is either the manufacturer's rating, or the lowest single value recorded during the test, whichever is lower. For this reason, most manufacturers build in a little extra margin to account for internal measurement and control system error. By the way, the UL1741 standard requires that the inverter operates within 10% of its' rating. See ya! Marv Director of Technology and Support, North America SolarEdge Technologies, Inc. Tech Support Mobile: +530.798.6770 Mobile: +530.392.0356 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 According to my discussions with Enphase on this subject, the M215 can actually put out 225 watts continuous. Marv? Please confirm. marco The inverter should be current-limited on its output. The other Enphases have a higher output power than rated (199 @ 190, 219 @ 210, if memory serves from earlier list posts), so this may have a similar window. 215Wac max inverter output / 240V = 0.896 0.896 x 17 = 15.23A 15.23A x 1.25 20A so it's OK. As long as the inverter output is actually 225W or less, you can fit 17 on a 20A circuit. As before, you'd have the inverter limiting output when the high-power modules are actually performing near or above STC. There will certainly be times during the year where the inverters are maxed out but those times will be a small portion. Enphase had some documentation on their site about this where they claimed it wasn't worth worrying about, but it's a site-specific question that the installer should answer. On 2011/8/24 0:20, Keith Cronin wrote: Hey gang With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website, they state you can put up to 17 modules on a string. Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the napkin- 235 watts/240 volts = .97 amps. 17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the current higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting? Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to 20 amp circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a few other changes. As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone, it seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to reflect this. Thoughts, comments? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible for delivering the e-mail
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
Keith: Her's my guess: Through the MPPT algorithm. The processor indicates near maximum output, the MPPT impedance reduces to throttle back power production. This is pure speculation, but I'm stickin' with it (untold told otherwise). Throwing away power? Yes. If MPPT is not at maximum power transfer at all times then your investment in PV is not earning it's full return. However, your inverter investment is not earning it's full return during the many hours of less than optimum insolation. These are the two factors to balance in system design. William At 01:01 PM 8/24/2011, you wrote: David, et al Yes, their literature states max output power of 215. Not sure how that is controlled, except for electronically. So this could be the shunt, so to speak and must take into consideration voltage to follow some algorithm to keep things humming along at that threshold. Having said this- are we throwing away power then? Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
William It seems like the product tries to be everything to all mod manu's, which is hard to do, at best. Don't know if its a limitation in the electronics or design architecture. Could also be a strategic position to clamp down on what can be plugged into the circuit per NEC to limit their exposure to liability and keeping up with the myriad of modules hitting the market every month. As you point out, its a delicate balance- insolation vs max harvest. Sites that are free and clear of any shading are penalized, so to speak. I suspect they are aware of this design challenge and in the future, we will see matched inverters to the mod wattage output to not leave any watts on the table. Within 24 months, we could even see things go a different direction- mods labeled AC rating first and DC second. If the inverter is built into the modules already, this make the language universal, like virtually all AC wiring in a home. Keith From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 Keith: Her's my guess: Through the MPPT algorithm. The processor indicates near maximum output, the MPPT impedance reduces to throttle back power production. This is pure speculation, but I'm stickin' with it (untold told otherwise). Throwing away power? Yes. If MPPT is not at maximum power transfer at all times then your investment in PV is not earning it's full return. However, your inverter investment is not earning it's full return during the many hours of less than optimum insolation. These are the two factors to balance in system design. William At 01:01 PM 8/24/2011, you wrote: David, et al Yes, their literature states max output power of 215. Not sure how that is controlled, except for electronically. So this could be the shunt, so to speak and must take into consideration voltage to follow some algorithm to keep things humming along at that threshold. Having said this- are we throwing away power then? Keith___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215
Actually, the max rating of the M190 is 190W. The max possible is 199W. For the M215 it is 215W and 225W respectively I was told. Highlight: 25 year warranty! Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:28 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215 Anyone know what the max rated output of the his new bugger will be? For the Enphase M190 it's 199 watts and 219 watts for the M210 according to our inphase Enphase friends. I'm wondering if the new M215 will also have some higher than nameplate max continuous rating. Thanks, marco ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
