Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-22 Thread dan 
", I would appreciate it.Thank You. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: Charles Picard <cpic...@solarcity.com>
Date: Wed, September 21, 2016 9:39 am
To: "d...@foxfire-energy.com" <d...@foxfire-energy.com>
Cc: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hi Dan,   I’ll try to stop short of playing armchair firefighter here, and stick to what legitimate data is available. I follow most of the prominent Firefighter trade rags, and while there is some good technical content, there are also a fair amount of opinion pieces.   The UL study linked earlier is typically the basis for any credible guidance on tactics or strategies, largely because there has been very little research done in the U.S.. In section 9 of that document you’ll find the analysis of the de-energizing experiments conducted.  These quotes stand out to me:    1.   “It was the consensus of those witnessing this experiment that this Class A foam was generally ineffective in blocking what little illumination the sun was providing that day.”  2.   “The application of ordinary Class A foam with a compressed air foam system did not prove to be effective or reliable in blocking sun to an array of PV modules.” (Note:  VT is likely to have much steeper roofs than used in these tests.)  3.   “…firefighting foam should not be relied upon to block light.” – Section 14   You bring up a great point about the rank-and-file firefighter needing something quick and effective. Foam may be quick, but we would never say with confidence it is safe and effective. (How does an “average Fire Fighter” confirm that hypothetical 20Vdc?) I’d also ask that we start first by examining the need…Why would the firefighters need to de-energize the array during active fireground operations? Are those scenarios both plausible and likely?   As a practical matter, de-energizing the array itself is going to be most important post-incident. This is admittedly a gap in coverage in this country. “Board-up”, or salvage companies may not be trained to make these systems 100% safe, so each Fire Department is left to seek out a local PV professional to offer guidance.   Another document that may serve as a blueprint for developing standard procedures is here:  http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/fire-fighter-safety-and-response-for-solar-power-systems  The bibliography is quite extensive.   Happy Reading!      Charles Picard  Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity  --- t:518.380.6628 m:  508.965.0144  RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here to view our complete list of license numbers by state.    


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-21 Thread Michael Welch 


Allow me to grease the skids:

http://www.iaff.org/pvsafetytraining/ 
Dan Fink wrote at 07:37 AM 9/21/2016:
 
I and others recently finished
working with IREC on developing  an online basic solar training
program for firefighters. It's live online on the IAFF website and is
free. I'm in a remote location now with only satellite email and don't
have the link but it's something like iaff/pv safety. 
I also offer a NABCEP registered CEU train the trainer class for pv
installers contact me off list.
I will try to address some topics brought up in this thread as this
horrible internet service permits.and can do so in detail when I'm
back in civilization next week.
On Sep 20, 2016 11:25 AM,
<d...@foxfire-energy.com
> wrote:


Hey Charles, would you direct me to your reference "you’ll
notice that foam does not work and should not be used."? I've found
reference in this and other articles that states roughly 'like tarps,
foam can not be relied upon to completely reduce array voltage to zero',
but no where can I find the statement that states for the average Fire
Fighter, a heavy foam is not a fast, safe and effective method of
reducing array voltage in a PV array in an emergency situation - using
equipment readily available. IMHO 20VDC is much preferable to
480VDC.

Thank You. db

 


Dan Brown

Foxfire Energy Corp.

Renewable Energy Systems

(802)-483-2564

www.Foxfire-Energy.com

NABCEP #092907-44



---- Original Message ----

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

From: Charles Picard
<cpic...@solarcity.com
>

Date: Tue, September 20, 2016 1:27 pm

To:
"palumbo1...@gmail.com
"
<palumbo1...@gmail.com
>

Cc:
"
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"

<
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hi Dave,

 

These are some great questions you’re asking, and you’ve prompted
some interesting responses. I’ve been partnered up with a career
firefighter for the past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few
thoughts for you:

 

Review the NFPA’s recommended best practices for interactions with
PV, you can find that free training here

https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901


 

The training is based on this research:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url="">


 

That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague
says, you can still “Put the wet stuff on the red stuff” but you need
to understand the rules you’re playing by.  This study does
address how arrays may be de-energized, you’ll notice that foam does
not work and should not be used.

 

You’ll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology
is woefully lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you’re
going to tackle the subject, I recommend doing a little research on the
types of construction and chemistries used. Too often folks lead their
presentations with exploding hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In
reality these are apples to oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall
specifically, they have published an Emergency Response Guide that is
publically available. They have also released results of a burn-test
study that is very informative.

 

There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt
Paiss has some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the
IAFF and IREC to create some online training content that looks very
good.

 

Feel free to contact me directly with any questions.

 

 

Charles Picard 

Sr. Compliance Engineer |
SolarCity 


---

t:Â Â Â Â 518.380.6628

m:Â Â 508.965.0144

RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR.
Click
here to view our complete list of license numbers by state. 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-21 Thread Dan Fink 
Hi charles, all.yes, foam is both not opaque enough and slides off.
Blue tarps / thin tarps are not eitheronly thick or canvas worksand
what if the wind blows it off during the response?

I recommend the irec / iaff Web class highly, it uses all the new UL data
and  It covers nozzles patterns vs distance and voltage. Big takeaway on
that.Ok to put water on pv from even 10 feet away, but do NOT direct
water at electrical enclosures, inverters etc

On Sep 21, 2016 6:39 AM, "Charles Picard"  wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
>
>
> I’ll try to stop short of playing armchair firefighter here, and stick to
> what legitimate data is available. I follow most of the prominent
> Firefighter trade rags, and while there is some good technical content,
> there are also a fair amount of opinion pieces.
>
>
>
> The UL study linked earlier is typically the basis for any credible
> guidance on tactics or strategies, largely because there has been very
> little research done in the U.S.. In section 9 of that document you’ll find
> the analysis of the de-energizing experiments conducted.  These quotes
> stand out to me:
>
>
>
> 1.   “It was the consensus of those witnessing this experiment that
> this Class A foam was generally ineffective in blocking what little
> illumination the sun was providing that day.”
>
> 2.   “The application of ordinary Class A foam with a compressed air
> foam system did not prove to be effective or reliable in blocking sun to an
> array of PV modules.” (Note:  VT is likely to have much steeper roofs than
> used in these tests.)
>
> 3.   “…firefighting foam should not be relied upon to block light.” –
> Section 14
>
>
>
> You bring up a great point about the rank-and-file firefighter needing
> something quick and effective. Foam may be quick, but we would never say
> with confidence it is safe and effective. (How does an “average Fire
> Fighter” confirm that hypothetical 20Vdc?) I’d also ask that we start first
> by examining the need…Why would the firefighters need to de-energize the
> array during active fireground operations? Are those scenarios both
> plausible and likely?
>
>
>
> As a practical matter, de-energizing the array itself is going to be most
> important post-incident. This is admittedly a gap in coverage in this
> country. “Board-up”, or salvage companies may not be trained to make these
> systems 100% safe, so each Fire Department is left to seek out a local PV
> professional to offer guidance.
>
>
>
> Another document that may serve as a blueprint for developing standard
> procedures is here: http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-
> research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/for-
> emergency-responders/fireground-operations/fire-
> fighter-safety-and-response-for-solar-power-systems
>
> The bibliography is quite extensive.
>
>
>
> Happy Reading!
>
>
>
>
>
> *Charles Picard*
> Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity 
> ---
> t:518.380.6628
> m:  508.965.0144
>
> RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here
>  to view our
> complete list of license numbers by state.
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> org/maillist.html
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-21 Thread Dan Fink 
I and others recently finished working with IREC on developing  an online
basic solar training program for firefighters. It's live online on the IAFF
website and is free. I'm in a remote location now with only satellite email
and don't have the link but it's something like iaff/pv safety.

I also offer a NABCEP registered CEU train the trainer class for pv
installers contact me off list.

I will try to address some topics brought up in this thread as this
horrible internet service permits.and can do so in detail when I'm back
in civilization next week.

On Sep 20, 2016 11:25 AM,  wrote:

> Hey Charles, would you direct me to your reference "you’ll notice that
> foam does not work and should not be used."? I've found reference in this
> and other articles that states roughly 'like tarps, foam can not be relied
> upon to completely reduce array voltage to zero', but no where can I find
> the statement that states for the average Fire Fighter, a heavy foam is not
> a fast, safe and effective method of reducing array voltage in a PV array
> in an emergency situation - using equipment readily available. IMHO 20VDC
> is much preferable to 480VDC.
>
> Thank You. db
>
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> NABCEP #092907-44
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
> From: Charles Picard 
> Date: Tue, September 20, 2016 1:27 pm
> To: "palumbo1...@gmail.com" 
> Cc: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
> 
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> These are some great questions you’re asking, and you’ve prompted some
> interesting responses. I’ve been partnered up with a career firefighter for
> the past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you:
>
> Review the NFPA’s recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you
> can find that free training here https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/
> catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901
>
> The training is based on this research: https://www.google.com/url?sa=
> t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_
> 67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ul.com%
> 2Fglobal%2Fdocuments%2Fofferings%2Findustries%2Fbuildingmaterials%
> 2Ffireservice%2FPV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEHXYPQ5_R0p-_
> QDW8fRvEYFx1xUg&sig2=W0zmY8dwh3D2EXk1XucXMA
>
> That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you
> can still “Put the wet stuff on the red stuff” but you need to understand
> the rules you’re playing by.  This study does address how arrays may be
> de-energized, you’ll notice that foam does not work and should not be used.
>
> You’ll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is
> woefully lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you’re going
> to tackle the subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of
> construction and chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations
> with exploding hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these
> are apples to oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they
> have published an Emergency Response Guide that is publically available.
> They have also released results of a burn-test study that is very
> informative.
>
> There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss
> has some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and
> IREC to create some online training content that looks very good.
>
> Feel free to contact me directly with any questions.
>
>
> *Charles Picard*
> Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity <http://www.solarcity.com>
> ---
> t:518.380.6628
> m:  508.965.0144
>
> RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here
> <http://www.solarcity.com/company/contractor-licenses> to view our
> complete list of license numbers by state.
>
> --
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Change listserver email address & settings:
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> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
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> List rules & etiquette:
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> Check out or update participant bios:
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>
>
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> List sp

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-21 Thread Charles Picard 
Hi Dan,

I'll try to stop short of playing armchair firefighter here, and stick to what 
legitimate data is available. I follow most of the prominent Firefighter trade 
rags, and while there is some good technical content, there are also a fair 
amount of opinion pieces.

The UL study linked earlier is typically the basis for any credible guidance on 
tactics or strategies, largely because there has been very little research done 
in the U.S.. In section 9 of that document you'll find the analysis of the 
de-energizing experiments conducted.  These quotes stand out to me:


1.   "It was the consensus of those witnessing this experiment that this 
Class A foam was generally ineffective in blocking what little illumination the 
sun was providing that day."

2.   "The application of ordinary Class A foam with a compressed air foam 
system did not prove to be effective or reliable in blocking sun to an array of 
PV modules." (Note:  VT is likely to have much steeper roofs than used in these 
tests.)

3.   "...firefighting foam should not be relied upon to block light." - 
Section 14

You bring up a great point about the rank-and-file firefighter needing 
something quick and effective. Foam may be quick, but we would never say with 
confidence it is safe and effective. (How does an "average Fire Fighter" 
confirm that hypothetical 20Vdc?) I'd also ask that we start first by examining 
the need...Why would the firefighters need to de-energize the array during 
active fireground operations? Are those scenarios both plausible and likely?

As a practical matter, de-energizing the array itself is going to be most 
important post-incident. This is admittedly a gap in coverage in this country. 
"Board-up", or salvage companies may not be trained to make these systems 100% 
safe, so each Fire Department is left to seek out a local PV professional to 
offer guidance.

Another document that may serve as a blueprint for developing standard 
procedures is here: 
http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/fire-fighter-safety-and-response-for-solar-power-systems
The bibliography is quite extensive.

Happy Reading!


Charles Picard
Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity
---
t:518.380.6628
m:  508.965.0144

RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click 
here to view our complete 
list of license numbers by state.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-20 Thread dan 
Hey Charles, would you direct me to your reference "you’ll notice that foam does not work and should not be used."? I've found reference in this and other articles that states roughly 'like tarps, foam can not be relied upon to completely reduce array voltage to zero', but no where can I find the statement that states for the average Fire Fighter, a heavy foam is not a fast, safe and effective method of reducing array voltage in a PV array in an emergency situation - using equipment readily available. IMHO 20VDC is much preferable to 480VDC.Thank You. db Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: Charles Picard <cpic...@solarcity.com>
Date: Tue, September 20, 2016 1:27 pm
To: "palumbo1...@gmail.com" <palumbo1...@gmail.com>
Cc: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hi Dave,   These are some great questions you’re asking, and you’ve prompted some interesting responses. I’ve been partnered up with a career firefighter for the past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you:   Review the NFPA’s recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you can find that free training here  https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901   The training is based on this research:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url="">   That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you can still “Put the wet stuff on the red stuff” but you need to understand the rules you’re playing by.  This study does address how arrays may be de-energized, you’ll notice that foam does not work and should not be used.   You’ll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is woefully lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you’re going to tackle the subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of construction and chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations with exploding hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these are apples to oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they have published an Emergency Response Guide that is publically available. They have also released results of a burn-test study that is very informative.   There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss has some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and IREC to create some online training content that looks very good.   Feel free to contact me directly with any questions.      Charles Picard  Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity  --- t:518.380.6628 m:  508.965.0144  RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here to view our complete list of license numbers by state.    ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-20 Thread Charles Picard 
Hi Dave,

These are some great questions you're asking, and you've prompted some 
interesting responses. I've been partnered up with a career firefighter for the 
past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you:

Review the NFPA's recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you can 
find that free training here 
https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901

The training is based on this research: 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ul.com%2Fglobal%2Fdocuments%2Fofferings%2Findustries%2Fbuildingmaterials%2Ffireservice%2FPV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEHXYPQ5_R0p-_QDW8fRvEYFx1xUg&sig2=W0zmY8dwh3D2EXk1XucXMA

That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you can 
still "Put the wet stuff on the red stuff" but you need to understand the rules 
you're playing by.  This study does address how arrays may be de-energized, 
you'll notice that foam does not work and should not be used.

You'll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is woefully 
lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you're going to tackle the 
subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of construction and 
chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations with exploding 
hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these are apples to 
oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they have published an 
Emergency Response Guide that is publically available. They have also released 
results of a burn-test study that is very informative.

There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss has 
some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and IREC to 
create some online training content that looks very good.

Feel free to contact me directly with any questions.


Charles Picard
Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity
---
t:518.380.6628
m:  508.965.0144

RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click 
here to view our complete 
list of license numbers by state.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-20 Thread Glenn Burt 
I suggest you review the testing UL did regarding firefighting and PV, 
specifically their tests involving the use of foam, before jumping on that 
bandwagon...

-Original Message-
From: "Dave Palumbo" 
Sent: ‎9/‎20/‎2016 10:25
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

Thanks Dan,

 

Thanks for these good points and good ideas. Of course safety of the 
responders/helpers is #1, thanks for the reminder.

 

I have not heard about spraying foam on the array to disable. What are the 
specifics on this? What kind of foam? Are your local fire fighters equipped to 
spray this when needed? 

 

Also, I had not thought that there would be lethal voltage from a PV array at 
night. Are you talking about small amounts of moonlight and starlight 
generating enough power to kill someone who cuts into those wires?

 

Another question for the group. On an off-grid home, or barn, powered by an 
inverter I would assume that if fire fighters (wearing protective gloves) have 
cut into the homes AC wiring that the inverter power will be disabled assuming 
shorted wires. I know the old Trace SW's and the OutBack inverters shut off 
quickly in cases of shorted output wiring. Do all stand alone inverters shut 
down quickly in cases of shorted output? At this point the fire fighter would 
need to be concerned with the battery bank, any DC voltages in the structure, 
and of course whatever other power source may be connected to the structure - 
fossil fueled generator, PV array, wind turbine, hydro turbine. I recommend 
that the emergency responders send one person to sweep around the perimeter of 
the building(s) looking for any potential power generators. This person should 
have enough training/experience to disable these alternate generators by 
shutting off the fuel sources and or throwing disconnect switches as required.

 

Dave Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

Hyde Park, VT

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

 

Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to 
address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off 
Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in 
subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that 
training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself 
and the public'.. In that order.

 

HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some 
industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the 
area based on the threat identified. i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's 
not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a 
hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still 
knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the 
best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is 
knowing the difference.

 

As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for 
disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't 
know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. 
Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative 
Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many 
of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. 
and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, 
Identify and if it's beyond their training, run.

 

As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the 
array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I 
like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to 
temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, 
they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros.

 

I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years 
is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, 
well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed 
more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems 
and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than 
not, the home owner knows what's what.. 

 

Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep 
up with them'.

 

Hope this helps. db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
 <http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #0929

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-20 Thread Dave Palumbo 
Thanks Dan,

 

Thanks for these good points and good ideas. Of course safety of the 
responders/helpers is #1, thanks for the reminder.

 

I have not heard about spraying foam on the array to disable. What are the 
specifics on this? What kind of foam? Are your local fire fighters equipped to 
spray this when needed? 

 

Also, I had not thought that there would be lethal voltage from a PV array at 
night. Are you talking about small amounts of moonlight and starlight 
generating enough power to kill someone who cuts into those wires?

 

Another question for the group. On an off-grid home, or barn, powered by an 
inverter I would assume that if fire fighters (wearing protective gloves) have 
cut into the homes AC wiring that the inverter power will be disabled assuming 
shorted wires. I know the old Trace SW's and the OutBack inverters shut off 
quickly in cases of shorted output wiring. Do all stand alone inverters shut 
down quickly in cases of shorted output? At this point the fire fighter would 
need to be concerned with the battery bank, any DC voltages in the structure, 
and of course whatever other power source may be connected to the structure - 
fossil fueled generator, PV array, wind turbine, hydro turbine. I recommend 
that the emergency responders send one person to sweep around the perimeter of 
the building(s) looking for any potential power generators. This person should 
have enough training/experience to disable these alternate generators by 
shutting off the fuel sources and or throwing disconnect switches as required.

 

Dave Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

Hyde Park, VT

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

 

Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to 
address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off 
Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in 
subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that 
training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself 
and the public'.. In that order.

 

HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some 
industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the 
area based on the threat identified. i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's 
not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a 
hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still 
knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the 
best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is 
knowing the difference.

 

As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for 
disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't 
know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. 
Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative 
Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many 
of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. 
and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, 
Identify and if it's beyond their training, run.

 

As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the 
array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I 
like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to 
temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, 
they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros.

 

I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years 
is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, 
well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed 
more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems 
and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than 
not, the home owner knows what's what.. 

 

Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep 
up with them'.

 

Hope this helps. db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
 <http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44

 

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: "Dave Palumbo" < <mailto:palumbo1...@gmail.com> palumbo1...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, September 19, 2016 10:13 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" < <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
re-wrenches@lis

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-20 Thread dan 
Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself and the public'.. In that order. HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the area based on the threat identified.  i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is knowing the difference.As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, Identify and if it's beyond their training, run.As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros.I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than not, the home owner knows what's what.. Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep up with them'.Hope this helps. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: "Dave Palumbo" <palumbo1...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, September 19, 2016 10:13 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Wrenches, I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro, different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators - diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we will visit  a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no battery back-up). · I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I could use some advice for the fire fighters.· Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's?· There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar with? Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from utility power.  As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It can be a little scary, but always interesting. Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with solar electric systems that you recommend? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC462 Solar Way DriveHyde Park, VT 05655802-371-8678 cell802-888-4917 home  ___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-20 Thread Glenn Burt 
Hi Dave,

I have given this type of class to the Southern VT Fire Academy for the past 
couple of years, combining classroom powepoint and example labels, racking and 
modules with field trips to several  PV installations in the Rutland area.
I have been told that fire departments do not pull utility meters, they call 
GMP and a utility worker responds and handles that.
Don't forget to cover SHW and other solar based obstacles and gizmos they may 
be exposed to on a rooftop-no one else is exposing them to these systems either.
Also, lithium batteries are more common in motor vehicles today, and they 
probably already have some training in that regard.
Good luck!

Glenn Burt

-Original Message-
From: "Dave Palumbo" 
Sent: ‎9/‎19/‎2016 22:13
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

Wrenches,

 

I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our
local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around
my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro,
different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators -
diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we
will visit  a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no
battery back-up).

 

. I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall
battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in
Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I
could use some advice for the fire fighters.

. Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with
back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's?

. There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally
recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in
power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar
with?

 

Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have
a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer
squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of
serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home
on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from
utility power. 

 

As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for
residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It
can be a little scary, but always interesting.

 

Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with
solar electric systems that you recommend?

 

Thanks for your time,

 

David Palumbo 

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home

 

 

___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

2016-09-19 Thread Dave Palumbo 
Wrenches,

 

I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our
local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around
my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro,
different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators -
diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we
will visit  a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no
battery back-up).

 

. I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall
battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in
Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I
could use some advice for the fire fighters.

. Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with
back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's?

. There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally
recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in
power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar
with?

 

Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have
a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer
squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of
serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home
on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from
utility power. 

 

As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for
residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It
can be a little scary, but always interesting.

 

Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with
solar electric systems that you recommend?

 

Thanks for your time,

 

David Palumbo 

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home

 

 

___
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