Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[Roy Butler]

Larry,

Too bad that Outback (Alpha Group) is now in the process of sending all 
inverter manufacturing to India.sigh


Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer®
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV&  wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747

www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




On 10/19/2011 6:31 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

I may have mislead some with my last post. When I said Outback was "much better than 
any of the other Made in China products",  I did not mean to imply that Outback was 
made in China. Outback products are made in the US. My wording was poor. Sorry for the 
confusion.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
wrote:


I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK battery 
monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far as 
function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for off 
grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan.

In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, the 
configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration and cost. When 
your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to be easy for the customer to 
understand. After the FM controllers were released, we had several failures that soured 
my opinion on Outback. It would of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was 
given. Now we only install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile 
installs. I'm not "disssing" Outback as I think they are much better than the 
any of the other Made in China products.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I may have mislead some with my last post. When I said Outback was "much better 
than any of the other Made in China products",  I did not mean to imply that 
Outback was made in China. Outback products are made in the US. My wording was 
poor. Sorry for the confusion.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
wrote:

> I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK 
> battery monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far 
> as function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for 
> off grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. 
> 
> In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, 
> the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration 
> and cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to 
> be easy for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were 
> released, we had several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would 
> of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only 
> install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. 
> I'm not "disssing" Outback as I think they are much better than the any of 
> the other Made in China products.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[Jesse Dahl]

I just installed a Magnum system with control and the customer was impressed 
with the ease of operation. They have nothing to compare against, but they seem 
very pleased. 

The comment about the IPhone not needing a manual is great! 

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2011, at 9:11 AM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power 
Systems" wrote:

> I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK 
> battery monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far 
> as function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for 
> off grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. 
> 
> In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, 
> the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration 
> and cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to 
> be easy for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were 
> released, we had several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would 
> of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only 
> install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. 
> I'm not "disssing" Outback as I think they are much better than the any of 
> the other Made in China products.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:16 AM, PRP wrote:
> 
>> Magnum with the standard control.
>> Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call.
>> 
>> In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any 
>> problems at all.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Pine Ridge Products LLC
>> 1646 East Highwood Rd
>> Belt, MT 59412
>> 
>> www.pineridgeproducts.com
>> www.chinookturbines.com
>> 
>> On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> Mark:
>>> 
>>> The XW SCP is no picnic either.  Are there any off-grid inverters with a 
>>> decent user control panel?
>>> 
>>> William
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK battery 
monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far as 
function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for off 
grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. 

In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, 
the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration and 
cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to be easy 
for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were released, we had 
several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would of helped if they 
covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only install Magnum 
products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. I'm not "disssing" 
Outback as I think they are much better than the any of the other Made in China 
products.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:16 AM, PRP wrote:

> Magnum with the standard control.
> Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call.
> 
> In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any 
> problems at all.
> 
> -- 
> Pine Ridge Products LLC
> 1646 East Highwood Rd
> Belt, MT 59412
> 
> www.pineridgeproducts.com
> www.chinookturbines.com
> 
> On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote:
> 
>> Mark:
>> 
>> The XW SCP is no picnic either.  Are there any off-grid inverters with a 
>> decent user control panel?
>> 
>> William

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[Carl Hansen]

Ray, without a Mate how do your clients initiate an equalize charge via 
generator ?  Do you just set the Bulk Charge volts at an equalize V level ?


Carl,
solar...@cybermesa.com

On 10/17/2011 10:09 PM, R Ray Walters wrote:
For this and cost reasons ($295!) I almost never offer a MATE on my 
Outback systems. We just keep one on  the truck adjust everything, and 
then pull it.
I've waited for close to 10 years now for the computer interface, so 
you could pull everything up in a Windows screen, click on the 
particular parameter for more info and adjustment.
The Pentametric does that, and its nice except for the old serial 
connection.
William, I'd be interested in being on the manual review board. Do we 
get paid anything or is it sort of like all that unofficial product 
beta testing we've done..


R. Walters
r...@solarray.com 
Solar Engineer




On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:25 PM, > > wrote:



I am in full agreement.
The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate.
The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password 
protected area.


Mark

 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
From: William Miller mailto:will...@millersolar.com>>
Date: Mon, October 17, 2011 7:49 pm
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>

Friends:

I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem
with an Outback FX system.  I found that the customer, in the
process of using a remote Mate to start the generator, had
inadvertently turned the global charge control setting to "off". 
This causes a problem that is very serious but hard to detect: 
The generator will run but it will not charge the batteries.  No

one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime the
customers batteries were chronically undercharged.

Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the
customer (or someone from another "solar" company) had selected
the "drop" setting from the "use" menu.  Similar results to the
previous case, but in this situation the customer had to use the
bypass breakers to get power to the house while the batteries did
not charge.

To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all
manufacturers of technical equipment:  Poor user interface.  Who,
in their right mind, would put controls to disable critical
functions in the same menu tree as the control to do a common
place, frequently used function such as starting a generator
remotely?  And the screens are all almost identical.  This is
extremely poor design.

On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written
very poorly.  For example, why put the installation instructions
in the front of the manual?  You install a system once, but you
operate it every day.  The installation instructions should be in
the back and the operating instructions in the front (or better
yet, in separate books).  Why are we trying to use the same
manual for the installer as for the user?  A majority of users
need a 4 page manual that includes:  1. how to turn the system on
and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter
functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to
do when your power goes out.  That's it.  For the few users that
want to know more, they can wade through the installation /
technical manual.

We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform
the limited functions described above.  For a sample, see:

file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmll



We provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell
them to others, including other installers (off list, if you are
interested).

I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users
manuals for off-grid inverter manufacturer's.  Maybe if a few of
us grey beards look over these manuals before they are printed,
we can get them straightened out.  Anyone else on board?

Rant off.

William Miller

PS:  Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not
worth the paper it is printed on.

Wm

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com 
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[mark]

Comment on manuals in general -If you need to read the manual, it's just not designed friendly enough.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
From: "Jason Szumlanski" <ja...@fafcosolar.com>
Date: Tue, October 18, 2011 7:58 am
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

I second your rant. The charge control setting has been an issue for me, too. It’s especially hard to diagnose remotely when there is solar charging the batteries and the voltage is coming up. You may make the false assumption that the generator is charging the batteries. The MATE 3 is a bit nicer, because you can see charging kW at a glance, but even that is not foolproof.  I wouldn’t care about the manual so much if the interface was easy to understand. Did you read the manual for your iPhone? Of course not… not necessary… Jason SzumlanskiFafco Solar  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William MillerSent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:49 PMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant Friends:I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an Outback FX system.  I found that the customer, in the process of using a remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global charge control setting to "off".  This causes a problem that is very serious but hard to detect:  The generator will run but it will not charge the batteries.  No one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime the customers batteries were chronically undercharged.Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or someone from another "solar" company) had selected the "drop" setting from the "use" menu.  Similar results to the previous case, but in this situation the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to the house while the batteries did not charge.To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of technical equipment:  Poor user interface.  Who, in their right mind, would put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree as the control to do a common place, frequently used function such as starting a generator remotely?  And the screens are all almost identical.  This is extremely poor design.On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very poorly.  For example, why put the installation instructions in the front of the manual?  You install a system once, but you operate it every day.  The installation instructions should be in the back and the operating instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books).  Why are we trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user?  A majority of users need a 4 page manual that includes:  1. how to turn the system on and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when your power goes out.  That's it.  For the few users that want to know more, they can wade through the installation / technical manual.We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the limited functions described above.  For a sample, see: file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmllWe provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them to others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested).I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals for off-grid inverter manufacturer's.  Maybe if a few of us grey beards look over these manuals before they are printed, we can get them straightened out.  Anyone else on board?Rant off.William MillerPS:  Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the paper it is printed on.WmWilliam Miller Miller SolarVoice :805-438-5600email: will...@millersolar.comhttp://millersolar.comLicense No. C-10-773985___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[mark]

The setup and control for the Victrons is pretty friendly, although it runs on a PC.You can get a cheap notebook for the price of the Outback remote.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
From: William Miller <will...@millersolar.com>
Date: Tue, October 18, 2011 12:23 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

  Mark: The XW SCP is no picnic either.  Are there any off-grid inverters with a decent user control panel? William At 08:25 PM 10/17/2011, you wrote: I am in full agreement. The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate. The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected area. Mark  ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[Jason Szumlanski]

I second your rant. The charge control setting has been an issue for me,
too. It's especially hard to diagnose remotely when there is solar
charging the batteries and the voltage is coming up. You may make the
false assumption that the generator is charging the batteries. The MATE
3 is a bit nicer, because you can see charging kW at a glance, but even
that is not foolproof. 

 

I wouldn't care about the manual so much if the interface was easy to
understand. Did you read the manual for your iPhone? Of course not...
not necessary...

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

 

Friends:

I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an
Outback FX system.  I found that the customer, in the process of using a
remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global
charge control setting to "off".  This causes a problem that is very
serious but hard to detect:  The generator will run but it will not
charge the batteries.  No one can know how long ago this was done, but
in the meantime the customers batteries were chronically undercharged.

Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or
someone from another "solar" company) had selected the "drop" setting
from the "use" menu.  Similar results to the previous case, but in this
situation the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to
the house while the batteries did not charge.

To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of
technical equipment:  Poor user interface.  Who, in their right mind,
would put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree
as the control to do a common place, frequently used function such as
starting a generator remotely?  And the screens are all almost
identical.  This is extremely poor design.

On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very
poorly.  For example, why put the installation instructions in the front
of the manual?  You install a system once, but you operate it every day.
The installation instructions should be in the back and the operating
instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books).  Why are
we trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user?  A
majority of users need a 4 page manual that includes:  1. how to turn
the system on and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter
functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when
your power goes out.  That's it.  For the few users that want to know
more, they can wade through the installation / technical manual.

We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the
limited functions described above.  For a sample, see:
file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/S
upport/_support.htmll
 

We provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them
to others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested).

I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals
for off-grid inverter manufacturer's.  Maybe if a few of us grey beards
look over these manuals before they are printed, we can get them
straightened out.  Anyone else on board?

Rant off.

William Miller

PS:  Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the
paper it is printed on.

Wm




William Miller 
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
 License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[PRP]

 Magnum with the standard control.
Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call. 

In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any 
problems at all. 

-- 
Pine Ridge Products LLC
1646 East Highwood Rd
Belt, MT 59412

www.pineridgeproducts.com
www.chinookturbines.com


On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote:

> Mark:
> 
>  The XW SCP is no picnic either.  Are there any off-grid inverters with a 
> decent user control panel?
> 
>  William
> 
>  At 08:25 PM 10/17/2011, you wrote:
> > I am in full agreement.
> >  The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate.
> >  The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected 
> > area.
> > 
> >  Mark
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[William Miller]

Mark:

The XW SCP is no picnic either.  Are there any off-grid inverters with a 
decent user control panel?


William

At 08:25 PM 10/17/2011, you wrote:

I am in full agreement.
The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate.
The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected 
area.


Mark
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[William Miller]

Ray:

I always like to get paid, but that usually doesn't work when you 
volunteer.  Maybe we'll get a free high lighter!  Also, I just invented 
this idea and no one has called yet.  If they do, I'll let you know.


William

PS:  I like my customers to monitor battery voltage and current consumed, 
and without a Mate that is difficult.   Plus I have clients some distance 
from the power equipment and remote generator start is nice.


Wm




At 07:18 PM 10/17/2011, R Ray Walters wrote:
For this and cost reasons ($295!) I almost never offer a MATE on my 
Outback systems. We just keep one on  the truck adjust everything, and 
then pull it.
I've waited for close to 10 years now for the computer interface, so you 
could pull everything up in a Windows screen, click on the particular 
parameter for more info and adjustment.

The Pentametric does that, and its nice except for the old serial connection.
William, I'd be interested in being on the manual review board. Do we get 
paid anything or is it sort of like all that unofficial product beta 
testing we've done..
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[R Ray Walters]

For this and cost reasons ($295!) I almost never offer a MATE on my Outback 
systems. We just keep one on  the truck adjust everything, and then pull it.
I've waited for close to 10 years now for the computer interface, so you could 
pull everything up in a Windows screen, click on the particular parameter for 
more info and adjustment.
The Pentametric does that, and its nice except for the old serial connection.
William, I'd be interested in being on the manual review board. Do we get paid 
anything or is it sort of like all that unofficial product beta testing we've 
done..

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:25 PM,   wrote:

> I am in full agreement.
> The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate.
> The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected 
> area.
> 
> Mark
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
> From: William Miller 
> Date: Mon, October 17, 2011 7:49 pm
> To: RE-wrenches 
> 
> Friends:
> 
> I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an 
> Outback FX system.  I found that the customer, in the process of using a 
> remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global 
> charge control setting to "off".  This causes a problem that is very serious 
> but hard to detect:  The generator will run but it will not charge the 
> batteries.  No one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime 
> the customers batteries were chronically undercharged.
> 
> Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or 
> someone from another "solar" company) had selected the "drop" setting from 
> the "use" menu.  Similar results to the previous case, but in this situation 
> the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to the house while 
> the batteries did not charge.
> 
> To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of 
> technical equipment:  Poor user interface.  Who, in their right mind, would 
> put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree as the 
> control to do a common place, frequently used function such as starting a 
> generator remotely?  And the screens are all almost identical.  This is 
> extremely poor design.
> 
> On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very poorly.  
> For example, why put the installation instructions in the front of the 
> manual?  You install a system once, but you operate it every day.  The 
> installation instructions should be in the back and the operating 
> instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books).  Why are we 
> trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user?  A majority 
> of users need a 4 page manual that includes:  1. how to turn the system on 
> and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter functions, 3. how 
> (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when your power goes out.  
> That's it.  For the few users that want to know more, they can wade through 
> the installation / technical manual.
> 
> We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the limited 
> functions described above.  For a sample, see: 
> file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmll
> 
> We provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them to 
> others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested).
> 
> I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals for 
> off-grid inverter manufacturer's.  Maybe if a few of us grey beards look over 
> these manuals before they are printed, we can get them straightened out.  
> Anyone else on board?
> 
> Rant off.
> 
> William Miller
> 
> PS:  Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the 
> paper it is printed on.
> 
> Wm
> 
> William Miller 
> Miller Solar
> Voice :805-438-5600
> email: will...@millersolar.com
> http://millersolar.com
> License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant

[mark]

I am in full agreement.The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate.The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected area.Mark


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
From: William Miller 
Date: Mon, October 17, 2011 7:49 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

  Friends: I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an Outback FX system.  I found that the customer, in the process of using a remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global charge control setting to "off".  This causes a problem that is very serious but hard to detect:  The generator will run but it will not charge the batteries.  No one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime the customers batteries were chronically undercharged. Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or someone from another "solar" company) had selected the "drop" setting from the "use" menu.  Similar results to the previous case, but in this situation the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to the house while the batteries did not charge. To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of technical equipment:  Poor user interface.  Who, in their right mind, would put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree as the control to do a common place, frequently used function such as starting a generator remotely?  And the screens are all almost identical.  This is extremely poor design. On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very poorly.  For example, why put the installation instructions in the front of the manual?  You install a system once, but you operate it every day.  The installation instructions should be in the back and the operating instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books).  Why are we trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user?  A majority of users need a 4 page manual that includes:  1. how to turn the system on and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when your power goes out.  That's it.  For the few users that want to know more, they can wade through the installation / technical manual. We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the limited functions described above.  For a sample, see: file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmll We provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them to others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested). I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals for off-grid inverter manufacturer's.  Maybe if a few of us grey beards look over these manuals before they are printed, we can get them straightened out.  Anyone else on board? Rant off. William Miller PS:  Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the paper it is printed on. Wm  William Miller  Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985   ___
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