Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Jay]

Hi drake,

My follow up question would be, how many inverters are there up and running at 
this point?

Jay






> On Nov 24, 2015, at 6:34 AM, Drake  
> wrote:
> 
> Is there any any recorded case to date of a UL 1741 inverter backfeeding the 
> grid and causing harm?
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Drake]

Is there any any recorded case to date of a UL 1741 inverter 
backfeeding the grid and causing harm?


At 05:27 PM 11/23/2015, you wrote:

Gary:

Here in the North Texas area, for the Oncor TDSP (Transmission and 
Distribution Service Provider), an 8-page Interconnection Agreement 
(IA) is required before a DG (distributed generation) system can 
become grid-interactive.


The Oncor IA is a legal agreement signed by the DG system owner and 
Oncor. It is very specific about the owner's liabilities and 
responsibilities for their DG system.


If an IA is required in Ohio between your customer and the serving 
TDSP, the customer's liabilities and responsibilities should be 
described in that document.


Whether or not there is a TDSP IA requirement in Ohio, I suggest 
that your customer discuss their liability concerns with their home 
owner or business insurance provider. It's possible that additional 
liability coverage may be appropriate to protect your customer, or 
possibly required by the insurance provider.


Regards,

Gary Willett PE
Icarus Engineering & Solar Services

Here's the liability section excerpt from the Oncor Interconnection Agreement:
4. Limitation of Liability and indemnification

4a. Notwithstanding any other provision in this Agreement, with 
respect to Company's provision of electric service to Customer, 
Company's liability to Customer shall be limited as set forth in 
Section 4.2.1 of Company's PUC-approved tariffs and terms and 
conditions for electric service which is incorporated herein by reference.


4b. Neither Company nor Customer shall be liable to the other for 
damages for any act that is beyond such party's control, including 
any event that is a result of an act of God, labor disturbance, act 
of the public enemy, war, insurrection, riot, fire, storm or flood, 
explosion, breakage or accident to machinery or equipment, a 
curtailment, order, or regulation or restriction imposed by 
governmental, military, or lawfully established civilian 
authorities, or by the making of necessary repairs upon the property 
or equipment of either party.


4c. Notwithstanding Paragraph 4.b of this Agreement, Company shall 
assume a/I liability for and shall indemnify Customer for any 
claims, losses, costs, and expenses of any kind or character to the 
extent that they result from Company's negligence in connection with 
the design, construction, or operation of its facilities as 
described on Exhibit A; provided, however, that Company shall have 
no obligation to indemnify Customer for claims brought by claimants 
who cannot recover directly from Company. Such indemnity shall 
include, but is not limited to, financial responsibility for: (a) 
Customer's monetary losses; (b) reasonable costs and expenses of 
defending an action or claim made by a third person; (c) damages 
related to the death or injury of a third person; (d) damages to the 
property of Customer; (e) damages to the property of a third person; 
(f) damages for the disruption of the business of a third person. In 
no event shall Company be liable for consequential, special, 
incidental or punitive damages, including, without limitation, loss 
of profits, loss of revenue, or loss of production. The Company does 
not assume liability for any costs for damages arising from the 
disruption of the business of the Customer or for the Customer's 
costs and expenses of prosecuting or defending an action or claim 
against the Company. This paragraph does not create a liability on 
the part of the Company to the Customer or a third person, but 
requires indemnification where such liability exists. The 
limitations of liability provided in this paragraph do not apply in 
cases of gross negligence or intentional wrongdoing.


4d. Notwithstanding Paragraph 4.b of this Agreement, Customer shall 
assume all liability for and shall indemnify Company for any claims, 
losses, costs, and expenses of any kind or character to the extent 
that they result from Customer's negligence in connection with the 
design, construction or operation of its facilities as described on 
Exhibit A; provided, however, that Customer shall have no obligation 
to indemnify Company for claims brought by claimants who cannot 
recover directly from Customer. Such indemnity shall include, but is 
not limited to, financial responsibility for: (a) Company's monetary 
losses; (b) reasonable costs and expenses of defending an action or 
claim made by a third person; (c) damages related to the death or 
injury of a third person; (d) damages to the property of Company; 
(e) damages to the property of a third person; (f) damages for the 
disruption of the business of a third person. In no event shall 
Customer be liable for consequential, special, incidental or 
punitive damages, including, without limitation, loss of profits, 
loss of revenue, or loss of production. The Customer does not assume 
liability for any costs for damages arising from the disruption of 
the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Jason Szumlanski]

Hahaha. Here in Florida where everyone is a retired something, everyone is
an engineer, doctor, or lawyer, or they slept at a Holiday Inn Express last
night.

On a serious note, the way I usually handle engineers is to ask their
particular area of work. Understanding whether they are focused on
structural, electrical, materials, chemical, civil, et cetera, helps me
walk them through the issues they are likely to be concerned about.

On the original inverter backfeed liability issue, does it really matter?
Someone dies, everyone gets sued. What is the customer really asking? Who
is going to take responsibility? The answer is nobody. The lawyers and
insurance companies battle it out and nobody wins. Sometimes when asked
these kinds of questions I just tell the shocking truth. What happens in a
hurricane? Your house blows down. Call your insurance company. What happens
to the warranty if the manufacturer goes out of business? You're screwed.
Sometimes people just need to hear the raw truth, and they usually
appreciate it!

Side note: Why does it seem like lawyers never ask questions about the
small print and sign without reading contracts?


​Jason


On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> OMG!…I thought I was the only one that had to deal with those experts. My
> favorite was a fellow leaned over the counter and announced to me that he
> was retired from NASA. Well, guess I better pad my estimate by 25%. Good
> one, Hilton.
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 4:59 PM, Hilton Dier  wrote:
>
> The most frightening words I can hear from a client are, "I am an
> engineer." Equally alarming is "I am a retired engineer."
>
> Either way, the "what ifs" are endless.
>
> Hilton Dier III
> Renewable Energy Design
> Solar Gain, LLC
> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Bill Loesch]

Hilton,
Would not an appropriate (and respectful) rejoinder be, "Why are you 
coming to me?"


Your experience and expertise beyond Physics 101 may be primary driving 
reasons. A long time ago, I think it was Dave P. who shared he talked to 
a potential customer for a half hour for free, after that he was on 
their clock. Educate them, properly. Provide them resources. SELL them 
resources. Sell them what works. Sell them your expertise...with a smile.


Best,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

On 11/23/2015 5:59 PM, Hilton Dier wrote:

The most frightening words I can hear from a client are, "I am an  engineer." Equally 
alarming is "I am a retired engineer."

Either way, the "what ifs" are endless.

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Solar Gain, LLC
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Gary Willett]

  
  
Gary:

Here in the North Texas area, for the Oncor TDSP (Transmission and
Distribution Service Provider), an 8-page Interconnection Agreement
(IA) is required before a DG (distributed generation) system can
become grid-interactive.

The Oncor IA is a legal agreement signed by the DG system owner and
Oncor. It is very specific about the owner's liabilities and
responsibilities for their DG system.

If an IA is required in Ohio between your customer and the serving
TDSP, the customer's liabilities and responsibilities should be
described in that document.

Whether or not there is a TDSP IA requirement in Ohio, I suggest
that your customer discuss their liability concerns with their home
owner or business insurance provider. It's possible that additional
liability coverage may be appropriate to protect your customer, or
possibly required by the insurance provider.

Regards,

Gary Willett PE
Icarus Engineering & Solar Services

Here's the liability section excerpt from the Oncor Interconnection
Agreement:
4. Limitation of
  Liability and indemnification

4a. Notwithstanding any other provision in this Agreement,
with respect to Company's provision of electric service to
Customer, Company's liability to Customer shall be limited
as set forth in Section 4.2.1 of Company's PUC-approved
tariffs and terms and conditions for electric service which
is incorporated herein by reference.

4b. Neither Company nor Customer shall be liable to the
other for damages for any act that is beyond such party's
control, including any event that is a result of an act of
God, labor disturbance, act of the public enemy, war,
insurrection, riot, fire, storm or flood, explosion,
breakage or accident to machinery or equipment, a
curtailment, order, or regulation or restriction imposed by
governmental, military, or lawfully established civilian
authorities, or by the making of necessary repairs upon the
property or equipment of either party. 

4c. Notwithstanding Paragraph 4.b of this Agreement, Company
shall assume a/I liability for and shall indemnify Customer
for any claims, losses, costs, and expenses of any kind or
character to the extent that they result from Company's
negligence in connection with the design, construction, or
operation of its facilities as described on Exhibit A;
provided, however, that Company shall have no obligation to
indemnify Customer for claims brought by claimants who
cannot recover directly from Company. Such indemnity shall
include, but is not limited to, financial responsibility
for: (a) Customer's monetary losses; (b) reasonable costs
and expenses of defending an action or claim made by a third
person; (c) damages related to the death or injury of a
third person; (d) damages to the property of Customer; (e)
damages to the property of a third person; (f) damages for
the disruption of the business of a third person. In no
event shall Company be liable for consequential, special,
incidental or punitive damages, including, without
limitation, loss of profits, loss of revenue, or loss of
production. The Company does not assume liability for any
costs for damages arising from the disruption of the
business of the Customer or for the Customer's costs and
expenses of prosecuting or defending an action or claim
against the Company. This paragraph does not create a
liability on the part of the Company to the Customer or a
third person, but requires indemnification where such
liability exists. The limitations of liability provided in
this paragraph do not apply in cases of gross negligence or
intentional wrongdoing.

4d. Notwithstanding Paragraph 4.b of this Agreement,
Customer shall assume all liability for and shall indemnify
Company for any claims, losses, costs, and expenses of any
kind or character to the extent that they result from
Customer's negligence in connection with the design,
construction or operation of its facilities as described on
Exhibit A; provided, however, that Customer shall have no
obligation to indemnify Company for claims brought by
claimants who cannot recover directly from Customer. Such
indemnity shall include, but is not limited to, financial

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

OMG!…I thought I was the only one that had to deal with those experts. My 
favorite was a fellow leaned over the counter and announced to me that he was 
retired from NASA. Well, guess I better pad my estimate by 25%. Good one, 
Hilton.


On Nov 23, 2015, at 4:59 PM, Hilton Dier  wrote:

The most frightening words I can hear from a client are, "I am an  engineer." 
Equally alarming is "I am a retired engineer."

Either way, the "what ifs" are endless. 

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Solar Gain, LLC
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[Chris Mason]

As long as the inverter carries a UL listing, it is the manufacturer's
liability.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 6:10 PM,  wrote:

> worst case scenario, a battery based inverter system trying to power the
> grid would immediately shutdown on overload as the "infinite load" of the
> grid would look like a dead short.
>
>
>
> also, all utility workers treat lines as "live" and routinely short out
> feeders before working on them... so the likelihood of this being an issue
> is extremely tiny.
>
>
>
> someone else would have to address the liability issue, but i imagine this
> is covered in the utility's net metering contract.
>
>
>
> todd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:19pm, "gary easton" 
> said:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
> I have an electrical engineer customer that asked me a "what if" that I
> had not heard before. If an inverter somehow back feeds the grid during an
> outage and damages something or hurts someone who is liable?
> --
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>
> T: 740-277-8498
>  www.arp-solar.com
> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
> you win.”
> ~Ghandi
>
>
>
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
>
> ___
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>
>


-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[wes kennedy]

Hi All,
My 2 cents.
UL1741 and IEEE 1547 talk about Anti Islanding requirements for grid 
interactive inverters. It is possible in theory, if the load on the grid 
exactly matched the pv production you could have an islanded situation. But as 
soon as the teeter totter tipped either way, the island collapses. 
I agree with Chris, if it were to happen, then the inverter manufacturer would 
be at fault.  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073
  From: Chris Mason <cometenergysyst...@gmail.com>
 To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
 Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 3:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability
   
As long as the inverter carries a UL listing, it is the manufacturer's 
liability.


On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 6:10 PM, <toddc...@finestplanet.com> wrote:

worst case scenario, a battery based inverter system trying to power the grid 
would immediately shutdown on overload as the "infinite load" of the grid would 
look like a dead short. also, all utility workers treat lines as "live" and 
routinely short out feeders before working on them... so the likelihood of this 
being an issue is extremely tiny. someone else would have to address the 
liability issue, but i imagine this is covered in the utility's net metering 
contract. todd   

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:19pm, "gary easton" <g...@arp-solar.com> said:

Hello Wrenches,I have an electrical engineer customer that asked me a "what if" 
that I had not heard before. If an inverter somehow back feeds the grid during 
an outage and damages something or hurts someone who is liable? 
-- 
Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable PowerStewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV                                                       
     
T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com
“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you 
win.”
~Ghandi


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

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-- 
Chris MasonNABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™Solar Design EngineerGenerac 
Generators Industrial technician
www.cometsolar.com264.235.5670869.662.5670Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[toddcory]

worst case scenario, a battery based inverter system trying to power the grid 
would immediately shutdown on overload as the "infinite load" of the grid would 
look like a dead short.
 
also, all utility workers treat lines as "live" and routinely short out feeders 
before working on them... so the likelihood of this being an issue is extremely 
tiny.
 
someone else would have to address the liability issue, but i imagine this is 
covered in the utility's net metering contract.
 
todd
 
 
 


On Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:19pm, "gary easton"  said:



Hello Wrenches,
I have an electrical engineer customer that asked me a "what if" that I had not 
heard before. If an inverter somehow back feeds the grid during an outage and 
damages something or hurts someone who is liable? 
-- 


Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power
Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV   
 
T: 740-277-8498
 [ www.arp-solar.com ]( http://www.arp-solar.com )

“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you 
win.”
~Ghandi


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter back feed liability

[gary easton]

That was basically my reply and we're not even talking about battery back
up inverters only direct grid tie.   He just persisted with the what if.
Is it actually "impossible" for a direct grid tied inverter to back feed
any voltage to a dead grid ?

On Sunday, November 22, 2015,  wrote:

> worst case scenario, a battery based inverter system trying to power the
> grid would immediately shutdown on overload as the "infinite load" of the
> grid would look like a dead short.
>
>
>
> also, all utility workers treat lines as "live" and routinely short out
> feeders before working on them... so the likelihood of this being an issue
> is extremely tiny.
>
>
>
> someone else would have to address the liability issue, but i imagine this
> is covered in the utility's net metering contract.
>
>
>
> todd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:19pm, "gary easton"  > said:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
> I have an electrical engineer customer that asked me a "what if" that I
> had not heard before. If an inverter somehow back feeds the grid during an
> outage and damages something or hurts someone who is liable?
> --
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>
> T: 740-277-8498
>  www.arp-solar.com
> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
> you win.”
> ~Ghandi
>
>
>
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
>


-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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