Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Bruce,

I think my experience may be helpful to you. The only Lithium battery chemistry 
that we sell is LFP or LFMP, both use Li Iron Phosphate for the cathode. We 
have sold many hundreds of Li battery systems since 2013 and there have been no 
fires reported to us. Our customers include off grid, marine and RV use, 
industrial such as pipeline SCADA controls, law enforcement agencies and more. 
So we have a broad range of customers and applications. 

This chemistry is considered “safer” than others for a number of reasons. I 
recommend you study the report from "The Fire Protection Research Foundation" 
here: 
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/Hazardous-materials/rflithiumionbatterieshazard.ashx
I'm in no way saying that LFP is always safe but with a well designed 
management system, I believe they are safer than any flooded LA battery and the 
least likely to cause a fire.

A few years ago, I was privy to see destructive tests performed on 2 of the 3 
brands that we offer. In the tests, battery cells (with no BMS or EMS) were 
charged far over recommended voltage, stabbed with spikes at low speed and by 
high speed impact, crushed in a press, and in one case shot with 12 gauge 
shotgun. The results were always an exothermic release of heat and steam or 
smoke but no flames. The results are similar to this comparison video showing 
NMC cells (extreme thermal event) and LFP cells heating up. 
https://youtu.be/bnzxrnS0JkE

ANY Li battery being sold without charge protection below freezing is 
potentially dangerous. There are batteries being sold with only a brief warning 
message or mention in the manual. Instead they should all have active charge 
protection. What if the user accidentally charged a frozen Li battery? 
Depending on current and temperature, Li plating leading to dendrite formation 
will occur. This is a dangerous condition that can continue growth and lead to 
thermal runaway at any time, even long after the damage occurred. Some of you 
are installing these batteries. Don’t ask me to name a brand, just study the 
product you use…for everyones good.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger  wrote:

Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from residential 
or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested in lithium ion 
batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as well.

Thanks!

Bruce



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Bruce
Wrenches
There was again a utility scale battery fire in Hawaii in around 2014 that
was fire department said they would not attempt to extinguish because of
the water run off would be very toxic and refused and instead only
prevented the fire from spreading, I was told it was so hot and bright it
could be seen from space.
Jerry

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bruce Leininger 
wrote:

> According to this article
> ,
> they were electric bike batteries.  So far, I haven't discovered any
> reports from this country about fires associated with residential or
> commercial energy storage systems, only utility scale
> .
> Please feel free to share any additional information you might come across.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 7:32 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they
>> sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type
>> please.
>>
>>
>> https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/
>>
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>>
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay  wrote:
>> > HI Bruce,
>> >
>> > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on
>> a
>> > utility scale battery.
>> >
>> > jay
>> > peltz power
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from
>> >> residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested
>> >> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid
>> >> fires as well.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> Bruce
>> >> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Bruce Leininger]

According to this article
,
they were electric bike batteries.  So far, I haven't discovered any
reports from this country about fires associated with residential or
commercial energy storage systems, only utility scale
.
Please feel free to share any additional information you might come across.

Thanks.

Bruce

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 7:32 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they
> sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type
> please.
>
>
> https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay  wrote:
> > HI Bruce,
> >
> > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on
> a
> > utility scale battery.
> >
> > jay
> > peltz power
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from
> >> residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested
> >> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid
> >> fires as well.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> ___
> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> >>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Dan Fink]

  Yes, APS had lithium-ion storage battery fires in 2012 and 2019. South
Korea had 20(!) such fires in the last 2 years, also fires in Australia and
Europe. These were utility scale. I think SF CA had one also, residential
scale. I'd be interested in knowing about any more residential incidents
for my upcoming safety classes for firefighters and AHJs. The flourine gas
generated is particularly nasty.
Dan Fink
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP PV Associate
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342




On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:15 PM jay  wrote:

> HI Bruce,
>
> There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on a
> utility scale battery.
>
> jay
> peltz power
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from
> residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested in
> lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Bruce
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> >
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they
sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type
please.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay  wrote:
> HI Bruce,
> 
> There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on
a
> utility scale battery.
> 
> jay
> peltz power 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from
>> residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested
>> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid
>> fires as well.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Bruce
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[jay]

HI Bruce,

There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on a 
utility scale battery.

jay
peltz power 



> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger  wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from 
> residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested in 
> lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as 
> well.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bruce
> ___
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