Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties alternative
Hi Kirk, Love it. Sounds clean. I think I understood your route. Question, was this a ground mount array or at significant tilt, and would these nifty 2-conductor clamps and SS screw attachment be just as easy to attach and work with for flush roof mounted array wire management along rails? I would think so, since you could just gauge where the USE-2 wire w/ MC connector ends need to be before the modules are placed. Have you used them for residential rooftop arrays? I like the Wiley SS clamps for module frames also, but do you have a part number for the 2-hole weather-tite connector to the 1" FMC? We always seem to have trouble finding. Do you have any pictures you could share? Sincerely, Peter D. Global Builders, Inc. - Renewable Energy Contractors (A,B 821587) Escondido, California, USA ASAP POWER! is "As Solar As Possible" Oceanside, California, USA Toll Free 866-724-3444 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 4:22 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties alternative I just wired a 50 kw array using Mcmaster-carr #7429K42 www.Mcmaster.com uv-resistant cable clamps. They worked great, attached to the Unirac rail with SS screws. Certainly much neater than tie-wraps. I was never able to get tie wraps to look that good in any installation. These little clamps, along with the acme SS clamps for the module frames that Wiley and others sell, really made the wiring look good. >From the point of connection to the module mc connectors, I attached my USE-2 wire down the respective rack legs to a j-box, entering through a 2-hole weather-tite connector, then to 1" FMC to the fused combiner box, then EMT to the respective inverter disconnect. Kirk, VT Solar -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:47 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties Tump, Interesting. No AHJ on my job in NH. Just trying to comply with the intent of the code and common sense. Next time, with the same AHJ, you might try using plumber's CVPS DWV pipe, it's not conduit :-) Dick --- You wrote: I tried this once only to have the AHJ indicate that that is NOT the correct method of use for PVC conduit. "You need to have strain relief's on your wires if your using conduit". Needless to say; yes sir, removed it & used tie straps. AHJs.. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties Fellow Wrenches, For MC cable "management", we recently used 1 1/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit, strapped loosely (to allow for expansion/contraction) to the our top rack rail with SS pipe clamps. The conduit was drilled with a 1 1/4" hole saw every 18" or so to match the spacing of the module pigtails. The hole edges were softened with a dremel tool. The MC cables dropped into the conduit through the drilled holes. We also drilled 3/8' holes in the PVC to act as drains. Excess cable was folded and tucked into the conduit. The layout was planned to allow easy access to each module's cables. Grounding was by WEEB washers. This approach was much more satisfying and easier to implement than tywraps or clips. The conduit dropped through the roof deck through an LB in a roof boot directly into a metal junction box. EMT to the DC disco. The LB was dammed with duct seal. Best, Dick Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties alternative
I just wired a 50 kw array using Mcmaster-carr #7429K42 www.Mcmaster.com uv-resistant cable clamps. They worked great, attached to the Unirac rail with SS screws. Certainly much neater than tie-wraps. I was never able to get tie wraps to look that good in any installation. These little clamps, along with the acme SS clamps for the module frames that Wiley and others sell, really made the wiring look good. >From the point of connection to the module mc connectors, I attached my USE-2 wire down the respective rack legs to a j-box, entering through a 2-hole weather-tite connector, then to 1" FMC to the fused combiner box, then EMT to the respective inverter disconnect. Kirk, VT Solar -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:47 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties Tump, Interesting. No AHJ on my job in NH. Just trying to comply with the intent of the code and common sense. Next time, with the same AHJ, you might try using plumber's CVPS DWV pipe, it's not conduit :-) Dick --- You wrote: I tried this once only to have the AHJ indicate that that is NOT the correct method of use for PVC conduit. "You need to have strain relief's on your wires if your using conduit". Needless to say; yes sir, removed it & used tie straps. AHJs.. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties Fellow Wrenches, For MC cable "management", we recently used 1 1/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit, strapped loosely (to allow for expansion/contraction) to the our top rack rail with SS pipe clamps. The conduit was drilled with a 1 1/4" hole saw every 18" or so to match the spacing of the module pigtails. The hole edges were softened with a dremel tool. The MC cables dropped into the conduit through the drilled holes. We also drilled 3/8' holes in the PVC to act as drains. Excess cable was folded and tucked into the conduit. The layout was planned to allow easy access to each module's cables. Grounding was by WEEB washers. This approach was much more satisfying and easier to implement than tywraps or clips. The conduit dropped through the roof deck through an LB in a roof boot directly into a metal junction box. EMT to the DC disco. The LB was dammed with duct seal. Best, Dick Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties
We have been putting the wires into hi temp split loom (nylon temp rating is - 40 to 300 degrees) and using the rated ties to hold it all together. It is not hot in this area and they seem to hold up fine. Ask me in another 10 years or so. Generally we use 2 sizes of loom. and weave the smaller into the larger. Never had any questions about it and it does make for a neat install. Not as fast as SS clips but it gives the creatures another layer to dig through before the wires are exposed. Bob On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Richard L Ratico < richard.l.rat...@valley.net> wrote: > Tump, > > Interesting. No AHJ on my job in NH. Just trying to comply with the intent > of > the code and common sense. > Next time, with the same AHJ, you might try using plumber's CVPS DWV pipe, > it's > not conduit :-) > > Dick > > > > --- You wrote: > I tried this once only to have the AHJ indicate that that is NOT the > correct > method of use for PVC conduit. "You need to have strain relief's on your > wires if your using conduit". Needless to say; yes sir, removed it & used > tie straps. AHJs.. > > -Original Message- > From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L > Ratico > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:55 PM > To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties > > > Fellow Wrenches, > > For MC cable "management", we recently used 1 1/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit, > strapped loosely > (to allow for expansion/contraction) to the our top rack rail with SS pipe > clamps. > The conduit was drilled with a 1 1/4" hole saw every 18" or so to match the > spacing of the module pigtails. > The hole edges were softened with a dremel tool. The MC cables dropped into > the conduit through the drilled holes. > We also drilled 3/8' holes in the PVC to act as drains. Excess cable was > folded and tucked into the conduit. > The layout was planned to allow easy access to each module's cables. > Grounding was by WEEB washers. > This approach was much more satisfying and easier to implement than tywraps > or clips. > The conduit dropped through the roof deck through an LB in a roof boot > directly into a metal junction box. > EMT to the DC disco. The LB was dammed with duct seal. > > Best, > Dick > > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > Bradford, VT > > > > You wrote; > > Chris, > > I'm not saying that UV black wire ties are best. I still think that > stainless cable clips made by Wiley are probably the best option of all. > Wire ties, or your solution, should be used when cable clips can't work. > > Bill. > > -Original Message- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Worcester > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:08 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties > > Hi all, > We have slowly evolved into using SS hose clamps with 3/4" double wall 600V > heat shrink over them to secure our wiring on our roof mount and pole mount > systems. The sharp edges can turn around and bite you! The addition of heat > shrink, which we buy in 4' lengths from Del City online along w/ the 10 > packs of SS hose clamps, works great. We want our systems to go 30 years > and > plastic zip ties here in the high Sierras just don't last. It is an easy > upgrade to SS zip ties and heat shrink for us. They will probably install a > lot quicker. > > Sincerely, > > Chris Worcester > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Phone: 530-582-4503 > Fax: 530-582-4603 > www.solarwindworks.com > chris at solarwindworks.com > "Proven Energy Solutions" > > -Original Message- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff > Clearwater, Village Power Design > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties > > Hi Bill and all, > > I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some > time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life > of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires > drop onto the roof. > > But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones > with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to > pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. > > At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work &
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties
Tump, Interesting. No AHJ on my job in NH. Just trying to comply with the intent of the code and common sense. Next time, with the same AHJ, you might try using plumber's CVPS DWV pipe, it's not conduit :-) Dick --- You wrote: I tried this once only to have the AHJ indicate that that is NOT the correct method of use for PVC conduit. "You need to have strain relief's on your wires if your using conduit". Needless to say; yes sir, removed it & used tie straps. AHJs.. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties Fellow Wrenches, For MC cable "management", we recently used 1 1/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit, strapped loosely (to allow for expansion/contraction) to the our top rack rail with SS pipe clamps. The conduit was drilled with a 1 1/4" hole saw every 18" or so to match the spacing of the module pigtails. The hole edges were softened with a dremel tool. The MC cables dropped into the conduit through the drilled holes. We also drilled 3/8' holes in the PVC to act as drains. Excess cable was folded and tucked into the conduit. The layout was planned to allow easy access to each module's cables. Grounding was by WEEB washers. This approach was much more satisfying and easier to implement than tywraps or clips. The conduit dropped through the roof deck through an LB in a roof boot directly into a metal junction box. EMT to the DC disco. The LB was dammed with duct seal. Best, Dick Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT You wrote; Chris, I'm not saying that UV black wire ties are best. I still think that stainless cable clips made by Wiley are probably the best option of all. Wire ties, or your solution, should be used when cable clips can't work. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:08 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi all, We have slowly evolved into using SS hose clamps with 3/4" double wall 600V heat shrink over them to secure our wiring on our roof mount and pole mount systems. The sharp edges can turn around and bite you! The addition of heat shrink, which we buy in 4' lengths from Del City online along w/ the 10 packs of SS hose clamps, works great. We want our systems to go 30 years and plastic zip ties here in the high Sierras just don't last. It is an easy upgrade to SS zip ties and heat shrink for us. They will probably install a lot quicker. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com "Proven Energy Solutions" -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi Bill and all, I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires drop onto the roof. But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work that well and I too worry about the sharp edges with all the contraction and expansion that goes on in an aluminum based racking system. On many commercial jobs we've used our own home made wire loom by splitting liquidtight non-metallic on a table saw. We then use a self tapper and washer to screw through the back of the inside of the split LT to the array frame and then use one-hole straps to hold the wire from coming out of the slot where we want to. I shared this method way back on this list and at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clrwater It's code since it's outdoor rated wire anyway. I sometimes even run the LT home to a LT fitting after stopping the split (after providing a drain loop/low spot). Not exactly covered by the code but I see no inherent violation. I'm glad to see UniRac coming out with a zip bundle that slides into their rail slot but that does only some of the job as there are many places we need to attach that are not directly along their rails. I've told the folks at UniRac, DP&W, ProSolar, AEE etc. that the first racking company that comes out with an
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties
I tried this once only to have the AHJ indicate that that is NOT the correct method of use for PVC conduit. "You need to have strain relief's on your wires if your using conduit". Needless to say; yes sir, removed it & used tie straps. AHJs.. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties Fellow Wrenches, For MC cable "management", we recently used 1 1/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit, strapped loosely (to allow for expansion/contraction) to the our top rack rail with SS pipe clamps. The conduit was drilled with a 1 1/4" hole saw every 18" or so to match the spacing of the module pigtails. The hole edges were softened with a dremel tool. The MC cables dropped into the conduit through the drilled holes. We also drilled 3/8' holes in the PVC to act as drains. Excess cable was folded and tucked into the conduit. The layout was planned to allow easy access to each module's cables. Grounding was by WEEB washers. This approach was much more satisfying and easier to implement than tywraps or clips. The conduit dropped through the roof deck through an LB in a roof boot directly into a metal junction box. EMT to the DC disco. The LB was dammed with duct seal. Best, Dick Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT You wrote; Chris, I'm not saying that UV black wire ties are best. I still think that stainless cable clips made by Wiley are probably the best option of all. Wire ties, or your solution, should be used when cable clips can't work. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:08 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi all, We have slowly evolved into using SS hose clamps with 3/4" double wall 600V heat shrink over them to secure our wiring on our roof mount and pole mount systems. The sharp edges can turn around and bite you! The addition of heat shrink, which we buy in 4' lengths from Del City online along w/ the 10 packs of SS hose clamps, works great. We want our systems to go 30 years and plastic zip ties here in the high Sierras just don't last. It is an easy upgrade to SS zip ties and heat shrink for us. They will probably install a lot quicker. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com "Proven Energy Solutions" -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi Bill and all, I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires drop onto the roof. But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work that well and I too worry about the sharp edges with all the contraction and expansion that goes on in an aluminum based racking system. On many commercial jobs we've used our own home made wire loom by splitting liquidtight non-metallic on a table saw. We then use a self tapper and washer to screw through the back of the inside of the split LT to the array frame and then use one-hole straps to hold the wire from coming out of the slot where we want to. I shared this method way back on this list and at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clrwater It's code since it's outdoor rated wire anyway. I sometimes even run the LT home to a LT fitting after stopping the split (after providing a drain loop/low spot). Not exactly covered by the code but I see no inherent violation. I'm glad to see UniRac coming out with a zip bundle that slides into their rail slot but that does only some of the job as there are many places we need to attach that are not directly along their rails. I've told the folks at UniRac, DP&W, ProSolar, AEE etc. that the first racking company that comes out with an integrated loom or wire handling system will rule. That was 2 years ago. Still waiting! Thanks, Jeff Clearwater NorthEast Solar/Village Power Design ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS Zip Ties
Fellow Wrenches, For MC cable "management", we recently used 1 1/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit, strapped loosely (to allow for expansion/contraction) to the our top rack rail with SS pipe clamps. The conduit was drilled with a 1 1/4" hole saw every 18" or so to match the spacing of the module pigtails. The hole edges were softened with a dremel tool. The MC cables dropped into the conduit through the drilled holes. We also drilled 3/8' holes in the PVC to act as drains. Excess cable was folded and tucked into the conduit. The layout was planned to allow easy access to each module's cables. Grounding was by WEEB washers. This approach was much more satisfying and easier to implement than tywraps or clips. The conduit dropped through the roof deck through an LB in a roof boot directly into a metal junction box. EMT to the DC disco. The LB was dammed with duct seal. Best, Dick Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT You wrote; Chris, I'm not saying that UV black wire ties are best. I still think that stainless cable clips made by Wiley are probably the best option of all. Wire ties, or your solution, should be used when cable clips can't work. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:08 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi all, We have slowly evolved into using SS hose clamps with 3/4" double wall 600V heat shrink over them to secure our wiring on our roof mount and pole mount systems. The sharp edges can turn around and bite you! The addition of heat shrink, which we buy in 4' lengths from Del City online along w/ the 10 packs of SS hose clamps, works great. We want our systems to go 30 years and plastic zip ties here in the high Sierras just don't last. It is an easy upgrade to SS zip ties and heat shrink for us. They will probably install a lot quicker. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com "Proven Energy Solutions" -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi Bill and all, I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires drop onto the roof. But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work that well and I too worry about the sharp edges with all the contraction and expansion that goes on in an aluminum based racking system. On many commercial jobs we've used our own home made wire loom by splitting liquidtight non-metallic on a table saw. We then use a self tapper and washer to screw through the back of the inside of the split LT to the array frame and then use one-hole straps to hold the wire from coming out of the slot where we want to. I shared this method way back on this list and at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clrwater It's code since it's outdoor rated wire anyway. I sometimes even run the LT home to a LT fitting after stopping the split (after providing a drain loop/low spot). Not exactly covered by the code but I see no inherent violation. I'm glad to see UniRac coming out with a zip bundle that slides into their rail slot but that does only some of the job as there are many places we need to attach that are not directly along their rails. I've told the folks at UniRac, DP&W, ProSolar, AEE etc. that the first racking company that comes out with an integrated loom or wire handling system will rule. That was 2 years ago. Still waiting! Thanks, Jeff Clearwater NorthEast Solar/Village Power Design ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Chris, I'm not saying that UV black wire ties are best. I still think that stainless cable clips made by Wiley are probably the best option of all. Wire ties, or your solution, should be used when cable clips can't work. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:08 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi all, We have slowly evolved into using SS hose clamps with 3/4" double wall 600V heat shrink over them to secure our wiring on our roof mount and pole mount systems. The sharp edges can turn around and bite you! The addition of heat shrink, which we buy in 4' lengths from Del City online along w/ the 10 packs of SS hose clamps, works great. We want our systems to go 30 years and plastic zip ties here in the high Sierras just don't last. It is an easy upgrade to SS zip ties and heat shrink for us. They will probably install a lot quicker. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com ch...@solarwindworks.com "Proven Energy Solutions" -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi Bill and all, I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires drop onto the roof. But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work that well and I too worry about the sharp edges with all the contraction and expansion that goes on in an aluminum based racking system. On many commercial jobs we've used our own home made wire loom by splitting liquidtight non-metallic on a table saw. We then use a self tapper and washer to screw through the back of the inside of the split LT to the array frame and then use one-hole straps to hold the wire from coming out of the slot where we want to. I shared this method way back on this list and at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clrwater It's code since it's outdoor rated wire anyway. I sometimes even run the LT home to a LT fitting after stopping the split (after providing a drain loop/low spot). Not exactly covered by the code but I see no inherent violation. I'm glad to see UniRac coming out with a zip bundle that slides into their rail slot but that does only some of the job as there are many places we need to attach that are not directly along their rails. I've told the folks at UniRac, DP&W, ProSolar, AEE etc. that the first racking company that comes out with an integrated loom or wire handling system will rule. That was 2 years ago. Still waiting! Thanks, Jeff Clearwater NorthEast Solar/Village Power Design >Folks, > >I'm a bit sour on SS ties. These are easy to overtighten and have caused >numerous ground faults in the field. My recommendation is to use >UV-resistant black wire ties and install 2-3 times as many as necessary. >Sure some will fail over time, but we are much less likely to have ground >faults, and proper O&M says that we maintain the wire supports over time and >replace broken ties as need. Proper tension is a must and people have to be >shown how to do it properly and checked up on in the field to make sure they >are not getting them too tight. > >Bill. > >-Original Message- >From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org >[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William >Miller >Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:52 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties > >Kent: > >To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from >clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This >tightens tie and hides sharp end. > >See >http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html >for photos. > >Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. > >William > > >At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >>Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths >> >>http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 >> >>For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to >>tighten them. >> >>Kent Osterberg >>B
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Hi all, We have slowly evolved into using SS hose clamps with 3/4" double wall 600V heat shrink over them to secure our wiring on our roof mount and pole mount systems. The sharp edges can turn around and bite you! The addition of heat shrink, which we buy in 4' lengths from Del City online along w/ the 10 packs of SS hose clamps, works great. We want our systems to go 30 years and plastic zip ties here in the high Sierras just don't last. It is an easy upgrade to SS zip ties and heat shrink for us. They will probably install a lot quicker. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com ch...@solarwindworks.com "Proven Energy Solutions" -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Hi Bill and all, I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires drop onto the roof. But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work that well and I too worry about the sharp edges with all the contraction and expansion that goes on in an aluminum based racking system. On many commercial jobs we've used our own home made wire loom by splitting liquidtight non-metallic on a table saw. We then use a self tapper and washer to screw through the back of the inside of the split LT to the array frame and then use one-hole straps to hold the wire from coming out of the slot where we want to. I shared this method way back on this list and at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clrwater It's code since it's outdoor rated wire anyway. I sometimes even run the LT home to a LT fitting after stopping the split (after providing a drain loop/low spot). Not exactly covered by the code but I see no inherent violation. I'm glad to see UniRac coming out with a zip bundle that slides into their rail slot but that does only some of the job as there are many places we need to attach that are not directly along their rails. I've told the folks at UniRac, DP&W, ProSolar, AEE etc. that the first racking company that comes out with an integrated loom or wire handling system will rule. That was 2 years ago. Still waiting! Thanks, Jeff Clearwater NorthEast Solar/Village Power Design >Folks, > >I'm a bit sour on SS ties. These are easy to overtighten and have caused >numerous ground faults in the field. My recommendation is to use >UV-resistant black wire ties and install 2-3 times as many as necessary. >Sure some will fail over time, but we are much less likely to have ground >faults, and proper O&M says that we maintain the wire supports over time and >replace broken ties as need. Proper tension is a must and people have to be >shown how to do it properly and checked up on in the field to make sure they >are not getting them too tight. > >Bill. > >-Original Message- >From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org >[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William >Miller >Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:52 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties > >Kent: > >To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from >clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This >tightens tie and hides sharp end. > >See >http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html >for photos. > >Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. > >William > > >At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >>Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths >> >>http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 >> >>For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to >>tighten them. >> >>Kent Osterberg >>Blue Mountain Solar > > >___ >List sponsored by Home Power magazine > >List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > >Options & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out participant bios: >www.members.
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Hi Bill and all, I've been searching for an alternative to plastic wire ties for some time as I'm not sure they are going to hold up over the system life of 20-30+ years and it'll be an ugly site to have all those wires drop onto the roof. But for a flush rooftop array, an assumption to replace broken ones with an O&M plan as Bill suggests is prohibitive unless you want to pull modules and rewire all over again. Way too much labor. At first I was glad to see the SS ties too - but they just don't work that well and I too worry about the sharp edges with all the contraction and expansion that goes on in an aluminum based racking system. On many commercial jobs we've used our own home made wire loom by splitting liquidtight non-metallic on a table saw. We then use a self tapper and washer to screw through the back of the inside of the split LT to the array frame and then use one-hole straps to hold the wire from coming out of the slot where we want to. I shared this method way back on this list and at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clrwater It's code since it's outdoor rated wire anyway. I sometimes even run the LT home to a LT fitting after stopping the split (after providing a drain loop/low spot). Not exactly covered by the code but I see no inherent violation. I'm glad to see UniRac coming out with a zip bundle that slides into their rail slot but that does only some of the job as there are many places we need to attach that are not directly along their rails. I've told the folks at UniRac, DP&W, ProSolar, AEE etc. that the first racking company that comes out with an integrated loom or wire handling system will rule. That was 2 years ago. Still waiting! Thanks, Jeff Clearwater NorthEast Solar/Village Power Design Folks, I'm a bit sour on SS ties. These are easy to overtighten and have caused numerous ground faults in the field. My recommendation is to use UV-resistant black wire ties and install 2-3 times as many as necessary. Sure some will fail over time, but we are much less likely to have ground faults, and proper O&M says that we maintain the wire supports over time and replace broken ties as need. Proper tension is a must and people have to be shown how to do it properly and checked up on in the field to make sure they are not getting them too tight. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Kent: To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This tightens tie and hides sharp end. See http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html for photos. Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. William At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to tighten them. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~ Jeff Clearwater Senior Design Engineer NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer http://www.nabcep.org/ Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector http://www.villagepower.com goso...@villagepower.com Voice: 413-259-3750 Fax: 413-825-0703 65 Schoolhouse Rd Amherst, MA 01002 ~ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Bill, I am more in your camp. SS ties look like cutting knifes to me. A lot of the worry over plastic comes from the folks in New Mexico. What they have there is a "parching" environment more that trouble with UV. I use the Panduit cable tie with the "-120" suffix, weather resistant nylon 12. Their data shows 12-15 year life expectancy. Most of these ties are actually protected from direct sunlight and weather, so I think they have a fighting chance in most environments. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:53 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Folks, I'm a bit sour on SS ties. These are easy to overtighten and have caused numerous ground faults in the field. My recommendation is to use UV-resistant black wire ties and install 2-3 times as many as necessary. Sure some will fail over time, but we are much less likely to have ground faults, and proper O&M says that we maintain the wire supports over time and replace broken ties as need. Proper tension is a must and people have to be shown how to do it properly and checked up on in the field to make sure they are not getting them too tight. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Kent: To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This tightens tie and hides sharp end. See http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html for photos. Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. William At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths > >http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 > >For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult >to tighten them. > >Kent Osterberg >Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Hi Bill, I have seen some real problems too but they have lots of uses beyond just supporting wires. Thanks, jay peltz power On Dec 11, 2008, at 5:53 PM, Bill Brooks wrote: Folks, I'm a bit sour on SS ties. These are easy to overtighten and have caused numerous ground faults in the field. My recommendation is to use UV-resistant black wire ties and install 2-3 times as many as necessary. Sure some will fail over time, but we are much less likely to have ground faults, and proper O&M says that we maintain the wire supports over time and replace broken ties as need. Proper tension is a must and people have to be shown how to do it properly and checked up on in the field to make sure they are not getting them too tight. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Kent: To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This tightens tie and hides sharp end. See http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html for photos. Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. William At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to tighten them. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Folks, I'm a bit sour on SS ties. These are easy to overtighten and have caused numerous ground faults in the field. My recommendation is to use UV-resistant black wire ties and install 2-3 times as many as necessary. Sure some will fail over time, but we are much less likely to have ground faults, and proper O&M says that we maintain the wire supports over time and replace broken ties as need. Proper tension is a must and people have to be shown how to do it properly and checked up on in the field to make sure they are not getting them too tight. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties Kent: To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This tightens tie and hides sharp end. See http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html for photos. Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. William At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths > >http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 > >For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to >tighten them. > >Kent Osterberg >Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Kent: To tighten: 1. Pull tie snug by hand. 2. Cut tail about 20 mm from clasp. 3. Roll tail with needle-nose pliers, like a sardine can lid. This tightens tie and hides sharp end. See http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html for photos. Do not over-tighten to avoid wire damage. William At 09:25 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to tighten them. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Fastenal has stainless ties is various lengths http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0710242 For those that haven't used these before, beware that it is difficult to tighten them. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SS zip ties
Jay: Waytekwire.com William At 04:15 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: Where do you get these SS zip ties. I have seen them and think they would work in some applications. thanks, jay peltz power ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
