Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Sorry. $26.

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw_tag=se=405275792334=t=9053055=g=e=1514810600998942803=kwd-847960718866=7662_9903424=ch+generator+interlock+kit=1711585215=8-1-spons_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY=1

This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the
interlocked breaker as a bypass.

I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I
can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an
interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated
to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my
area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for
cheap.


Jason



On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some
> research before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5
> breakers (4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are
> talking apples against oranges.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
> *To:* Kirk Herander
> *Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
> on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
> legacy panels.
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
> I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked
> at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have
> to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Kirk:
>
>
>
> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>
>
>
> Let’s consider the options:
>
>
>
> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
> for what we are talking about).
>
>
>
> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>
>
>
> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
> can really add up.
>
>
>
> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>
>
>
> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
> That’s why we do it.
>
>
>
> Wm
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
> including multiple breakers.
>
>
>
> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
> QO breakers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research
before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers
(4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are talking
apples against oranges.



Thank you.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
*To:* Kirk Herander
*Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.



Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.








*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are suffici

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.

Jason


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked
> at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have
> to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Kirk:
>>
>>
>>
>> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s consider the options:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
>> for what we are talking about).
>>
>>
>>
>> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
>> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
>> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
>> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
>> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
>> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
>> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
>> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
>> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
>> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
>> can really add up.
>>
>>
>>
>> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
>> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
>> That’s why we do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
>> including multiple breakers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
>> QO breakers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>>
>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>>
>> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>>
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>
>> 802.559.1225
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> Replies below.
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
>> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
>> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> William,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
>> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
>> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
>> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
>> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>>
>>
>>
>> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
>> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
>> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
>> the

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Kirk:
>
>
>
> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>
>
>
> Let’s consider the options:
>
>
>
> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
> for what we are talking about).
>
>
>
> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>
>
>
> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
> can really add up.
>
>
>
> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>
>
>
> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
> That’s why we do it.
>
>
>
> Wm
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
> including multiple breakers.
>
>
>
> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
> QO breakers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>
>
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
> at full capacity.
>
>
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.










*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.

Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.





*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>
>
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
> at full capacity.
>
>
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
> to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
> function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
> undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
> of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
> Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
> the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
> there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
> deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
> a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
> generator running.)
>
>
>
> But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
> with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
> 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
> The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
> backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
> believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
> that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
> points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
> that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
> the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
> understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
> tell inexperienced plan-checkers).
>
>
>
> With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to
> accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively
> cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I
> get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a
> generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically
> only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square
> D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is
> incompatible with the interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency
> condition, I sometimes limit my b

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
tell inexperienced plan-checkers).



With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish
this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective
option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept
for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on
an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single
backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a
backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the
interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes
limit my bypass to 100 amps.  If you want full bypass ampacity you can
build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker.  Here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/Interlock.JPG>
is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked.  Here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/RM_Interlock.pdf>
is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options.



Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
appreciated.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956

Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an excerpt.



*Error! Fi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

s
> > > function can be adjusted or turned off.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing:  I may have done a poor job
> > > describing how I see your project best approached.  Below is a diagram
> > > that may do a better job.  Power flow is from left to right:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///yH5BAEALAABAAEAAAIBRAA7]
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single
> > > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps.  Ergo
> > > #4 copper.  The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp
> > > breakers.  If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual
> > > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and
> > > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is
> > > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located
> > > in the “Main Breaker Panel.”
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps,
> > > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker
> > > provides.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I hope I have been more clear.  I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money
> > > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Call me if I can help in any way.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > William
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
> > > bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn on the bypass
> > > breaker without turning off the inverter output breakers.  See photos of
> > > the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass very
> > > handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can
> > > restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///yH5BAEALAABAAEAAAIBRAA7]
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Wm
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Miller Solar
> > > 
> > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> > > 
> > > 805-438-5600
> > > 
> > > www.millersolar.com
> > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F=1613865=79e9e2e0e8d662d0]
> > > 
> > > CA Lic. 773985
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > From: Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com
> > > [ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM
> > > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches
> > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each
> > > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be
> > > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at
> > > a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion.
> > > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can
> > > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to
> > > the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output
> > > conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out
> > > definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
> > > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
> > > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
> > > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
> > > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
> > > practical way to make that happen.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4
> > > x 150A backfed breake

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is
>> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located
>> in the “Main Breaker Panel.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps,
>> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker
>> provides.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I have been more clear.  I also hope you don’t spend a lot of
>> money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Call me if I can help in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
>> bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn *on* the
>> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers.  See
>> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass
>> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client
>> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F=1613865=79e9e2e0e8d662d0>
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM
>> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as
>> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would
>> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so
>> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my
>> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter
>> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to
>> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output
>> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out
>> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
>> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
>> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
>> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
>> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
>> practical way to make that happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need
>> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost
>> effective way to accomplish this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
>> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
>> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
>> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
>> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
>> output conductors need to be sized accordingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
>> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
>> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
>> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
>> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
>> load-center?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the
>> inverters?  Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider
>> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately
>> sized breaker to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as
>> required and you can isolate any inverter for service
>>
>>
>>
>> What size 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
>> bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn *on* the
>> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers.  See
>> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass
>> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client
>> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F=1613865=79e9e2e0e8d662d0>
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM
>> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as
>> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would
>> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so
>> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my
>> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter
>> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to
>> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output
>> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out
>> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
>> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
>> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
>> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
>> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
>> practical way to make that happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need
>> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost
>> effective way to accomplish this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
>> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
>> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
>> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
>> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
>> output conductors need to be sized accordingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
>> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
>> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
>> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
>> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
>> load-center?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the
>> inverters?  Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider
>> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately
>> sized breaker to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as
>> required and you can isolate any inverter for service
>>
>>
>>
>> What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
>> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
>> you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
>> you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
>> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
>> amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
>> mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches, Jason
I have always either with outback and with solark have always connected
each unit with a distribution panel with breakers regardless of what's in
the inverter package. This same goes for the gen set connections with
proper breakers so not to have to over size the wires.
I have connected to either the gen set input or the grid input both will
work and both can be used to charge the batteries.
Question l do alot of gen set integration and breakers on the genset may
not reflect its actual design output and l have seen multiple times
overloading the genset due to the incorrect math. Use a power factor of .8
of the gen set rating then 75% of that is safe continues operating load.
Now some may argue with this but when l take a 150 kW  genny for a 4 hr
load bank test that's the math that's used.

Your batteries should also be independently fuse or breaker protected
outside of the battery such as a midnite battery combiner breaker cabinet,
required for any more than two banks. I do this with FLA's blue planet and
fortress regardless of the internal breaker supplied.
Fun times

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 2:27 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>
> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
> total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
> single unit if the rest fail.
>
> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
> that is the case.
>
> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

#4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each
inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be
spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a
minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion.
The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can
supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the
inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors
to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if
generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.

As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
practical way to make that happen.

The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4
x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective
way to accomplish this?

Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
output conductors need to be sized accordingly.

Jason


On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
> load-center?
>
>
>
> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
> Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
> generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
> to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
> isolate any inverter for service
>
>
>
> What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
> you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
> you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
> amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.
>
>
>
> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
> mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
> generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
> inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
> installation might look like this
> .
> This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
> double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
> what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
> will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
>
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Hi Dave,

XW inverters do a decent job of explaining generator support mode where
small generators can be supplemented by inverter power to start up large
loads. I believe several other brands can do this, and I believe Sol-Ark is
one of them. But front line customer service wasn't really up to speed when
I contacted them recently. I can't say for certain if it is supported by
Sol-Ark, but it clearly is by Schneider and has always been partnof the XW
family as far as I recall.

As for the continuous ampacity adjustment, I'm not sure if that is
necessary. That would be more a function of the load rather than the
supply. We don't upside 200A utility service conductors that way (in fact,
there is an allowance for downsizing).

Jason



On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:08 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers
> are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both.
> So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will
> switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the
> batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator
> power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would
> think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for
> sure, unless someone else here can verify.
>
> But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it
> could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25
> = 313A rated conductors.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
>> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
>> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
>> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
>> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
>> only panelboard.
>>
>> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
>> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
>> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
>> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
>> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
>> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
>> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
>> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
>> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>>
>> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator
>> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
>> single unit if the rest fail.
>>
>> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
>> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
>> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
>> that is the case.
>>
>> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
>> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: Logo] 
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com 
> c: (607) 270-0370
>
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
load-center?



In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
isolate any inverter for service



What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.



BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
installation might look like this
.
This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)



Hope this helps.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
only panelboard.



My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.



Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
single unit if the rest fail.



Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
that is the case.



I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers
are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both.
So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will
switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the
batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator
power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would
think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for
sure, unless someone else here can verify.

But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it
could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25
= 313A rated conductors.

Cheers,
Dave

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>
> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
> total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
> single unit if the rest fail.
>
> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
> that is the case.
>
> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370
___
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