Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D QO breaker DC question

2013-07-09 Thread Ray Walters 

We'd need more info to figure this out.
1) Wire Size
2)  Type of charge controller C 60 or new MPPT model
3) use a clamp on meter to measure actual current
4) measure voltage drop across the breaker.

This very well could just be a loose connection at the breaker either 
the cable side of the breaker, or where it snaps on to the buss bar.
I've had QOs not work at higher voltage DC.  (over 50 v) I'd have to 
wiggle the breaker to get good contact on the buss, and it would start 
working again.  Given the age of the system, there's probably some 
corrosion and dust on the contact points.  Might just need some sanding/ 
filing.

The heat described fits with a loose/ high resistance connection.
Switching to a Midnite/ Outback breaker would be the only real way to 
reliably make sure it doesn't keep happening though.  On old systems, 
our job is to exorcise the ghosts from the machine.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 7/9/2013 9:10 AM, jay peltz wrote:

Hi Dan
I'm guessing the wire can handle the 100 amp if they are already 
running 60a.

I've had QO breakers go bad, even ones not tortured like that one.

The derate is interesting as it has to do with less atoms of air per 
volume. Less air, equals less cooling


Jay
Peltz power

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2013, at 10:07 PM, Dan Fink > wrote:



Esteemed Wrenches;

A weird troubleshooting call today for my business partner DanB. I 
wish I had been along if only for shock and awe and lessons learned.


A nicely installed vintage 12VDC PV system that someone else designed 
and installed over 10 years ago, we replaced a dead/frozen battery 
bank a month ago. DanB went back today because customer reported low 
battery bank voltage.


He found the PV input breaker tripped, a Square D QO 2-pole 60 amp. 
About 600 watts of PV 12vdc nominal on the roof. Reset the breaker, 
and a few minutes later it was too hot to touch.


So our working theory -- the 60a QO on *DC* has a 1.2x ampacity 
derate, which puts 600w PV right at 60 amps instead of 50. There's 
also a bit of a high altitude derate, which I don't understand at 
all. And during the battery disaster last year bank voltage was 
certainly 11vdc or less, and was a bit over 11vdc on DanB's arrival 
since the PV had not been charging. That puts us at possibly 65.5 
amps. The breaker was maybe just doing its job correctly, though the 
heat was disturbing I am told.Or maybe it got damaged during the 
battery disaster..both + and - were connected thru the 2 poles.


In any case, our question --- due to my fuzzy memory and poor 
shopping skills, we have a 100 amp QO 2 pole breaker in stock that 
needs a home, and it'll plug right in. I have a nice tech bulletin 
from Schneider Electric about DC ratings of their breakers that 
doesn't show that a 100a QO 2 pole even exists, and a Schneider FAQ 
that says it'll work fine:

http://www.schneider-electric.us/sites/us/en/support/faq/faq_main.page?page=content&country=US&lang=en&id=FA125383&redirect=true

Any advice on this? We'd sure love to just drop by and pop in the new 
100a amp QO breaker instead of installing a whole new DC rated 
Midnite box. But we don't want to leave a fire hazard either. With 15 
years service on our local volunteer fire department, It would be 
 rather embarrassing if a "fix" we made to this old off-grid system 
caused a fire. ;-) We are aware of the 5k AIR issue with these 
breakers, but the battery bank is small enough I don't think it's 
quite up there, and information on AIR interruption from battery 
manufacturers is hard to find..and of course it's a weird curve.


Thanks in advance;

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D QO breaker DC question

2013-07-09 Thread jay peltz 
Hi Dan
I'm guessing the wire can handle the 100 amp if they are already running 60a. 
I've had QO breakers go bad, even ones not tortured like that one. 

The derate is interesting as it has to do with less atoms of air per volume. 
Less air, equals less cooling

Jay
Peltz power

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2013, at 10:07 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> Esteemed Wrenches;
> 
> A weird troubleshooting call today for my business partner DanB. I wish I had 
> been along if only for shock and awe and lessons learned.
> 
> A nicely installed vintage 12VDC PV system that someone else designed and 
> installed over 10 years ago, we replaced a dead/frozen battery bank a month 
> ago. DanB went back today because customer reported low battery bank voltage.
> 
> He found the PV input breaker tripped, a Square D QO 2-pole 60 amp. About 600 
> watts of PV 12vdc nominal on the roof. Reset the breaker, and a few minutes 
> later it was too hot to touch.
> 
> So our working theory -- the 60a QO on *DC* has a 1.2x ampacity derate, which 
> puts 600w PV right at 60 amps instead of 50. There's also a bit of a high 
> altitude derate, which I don't understand at all. And during the battery 
> disaster last year bank voltage was certainly 11vdc or less, and was a bit 
> over 11vdc on DanB's arrival since the PV had not been charging. That puts us 
> at possibly 65.5 amps. The breaker was maybe just doing its job correctly, 
> though the heat was disturbing I am told.Or maybe it got damaged during the 
> battery disaster..both + and - were connected thru the 2 poles.
> 
> In any case, our question --- due to my fuzzy memory and poor shopping 
> skills, we have a 100 amp QO 2 pole breaker in stock that needs a home, and 
> it'll plug right in. I have a nice tech bulletin from Schneider Electric 
> about DC ratings of their breakers that doesn't show that a 100a QO 2 pole 
> even exists, and a Schneider FAQ that says it'll work fine:
> http://www.schneider-electric.us/sites/us/en/support/faq/faq_main.page?page=content&country=US&lang=en&id=FA125383&redirect=true
> 
> Any advice on this? We'd sure love to just drop by and pop in the new 100a 
> amp QO breaker instead of installing a whole new DC rated Midnite box. But we 
> don't want to leave a fire hazard either. With 15 years service on our local 
> volunteer fire department, It would be  rather embarrassing if a "fix" we 
> made to this old off-grid system caused a fire. ;-) We are aware of the 5k 
> AIR issue with these breakers, but the battery bank is small enough I don't 
> think it's quite up there, and information on AIR interruption from battery 
> manufacturers is hard to find..and of course it's a weird curve.
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
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