Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes Sonoma county requires 30' minimum from ground arrays for fire 
setbacks.  and by extension 30' from property lines (as an array owner 
can't control a neighbors brush removal) More is surely advised!  I 
imagine other CA counties have similar requirements.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 3/20/20 5:32 PM:


In our area of California, when the green grass dies and turns brown, 
the area under any type of array needs to be free of grass. An array 
could ignite a wildfire if the array were emit sparks. This is a very 
rare condition but it can happen to even the best design and module type.


There would not be any brush anywhere near an array. 10 feet from any 
point of the array makes sense but if there were a wildfire I would 
want alot more. 100 feet is typical for the zone around a home. That 
is what our AHJ wants to see in an inspection. We are in a very 
dangerous area for wildfires in the southern Sierra.


Brush does not count as grass. An array should survive a grass fire. 
Brush would be much more dangerous and must be kept clear as it is a 
much larger heat source than grass. I hope this is helpful.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600, Dan Fink  wrote:

Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client 
and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, 
Section 1204.4, which states:


Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted,
free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10
feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic
arrays.

I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was 
to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation 
and the fire spreading.

So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:

  * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is
exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite
vegetation underneath?
  * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)"
mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would
be in square feet.
  * What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush?

I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all 
vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should 
be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no 
sense to me).
I always recommend to clients that the area /under/ the ground mount 
array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 
feet from the array edge seems excessive.

Any input greatly appreciated!
Dan Fink
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP PV Associate
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d anbo...@gmail.com 


970-672-4342




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~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Ray]

I, second Jay's /no gravel/ sentiment.  I saw a huge 160 acre solar farm 
that they covered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of gravel.


Punch Line?  Only the weeds came back.  And only the nice 3 ft tall ones 
that some might call brush.


Just use a weed eater or manually pull the taller stuff as needed a few 
times a year.  Smaller cordless weed eaters don't throw rocks as bad as 
the big motorized ones, and I would recommend clearing the rocks, not 
adding more.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/21/20 11:03 AM, Jay wrote:
There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for 
the array from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though 
depending on where you live.


In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not 
talking pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the 
ground as practical, and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would 
have been removed before install.
I don’t agree with bringing  gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don 
t need a sterile environment under the array.  And anyone who’s ever 
seen such a weed cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so 
it really doesn’t work.
Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during 
the green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no 
summer rain no more grass grows, until the following winter 
rains,spring time.


Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what 
about if you have enough water to keep it all green?


In the end it’s the AHJ’s world

Jay

Peltz power.









On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld  
wrote:



Dan,

I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an 
option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any 
issues.  In addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and 
ground-mounted stuff as ESSs.


1.  By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - 
which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small 
trees and shrubs."


2.  The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there 
is a setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the 
(10) foot rule.


3.  I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of 
Pole Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) 
or an Open Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed 
structure where you can not walk underneath.


4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too?

"A.   RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems.

Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed 
in accordance with Section (R301).


B.  RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances.

Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire 
separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction."



5.  Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In 
California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping 
Contractor on what type of blue flowers would be okay.



What do you think?


All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified 
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional 
#IREC 10037

Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, 
D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, 
Instrumentation


Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical 
Inspectors  #7035507
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider


Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink > wrote:


Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a
client and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC
2018, Section 1204.4, which states:

Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted,
free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area
of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted
photovoltaic arrays.

I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this
was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding
vegetation and the fire spreading.

So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:

  * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is
exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that
ignite vegetation underneath?
  * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048
mm)" 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Jay]

There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for the array 
from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though depending on where you 
live. 

In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not talking 
pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the ground as practical, 
and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would have been removed before 
install. 
I don’t agree with bringing  gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don t need a 
sterile environment under the array.  And anyone who’s ever seen such a weed 
cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so it really doesn’t work. 
Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during the 
green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no summer rain 
no more grass grows, until the following winter rains,spring time. 

Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what about if 
you have enough water to keep it all green?  

In the end it’s the AHJ’s world

Jay

Peltz power. 









> On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dan, 
> 
> I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an option 
> in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues.  In 
> addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff 
> as ESSs. 
> 
> 1.  By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - which 
> we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees and 
> shrubs."  
> 
> 2.  The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is a 
> setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) foot 
> rule.
> 
> 3.  I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole 
> Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open 
> Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where you 
> can not walk underneath. 
> 
> 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? 
> 
> "A.   RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems.
> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in 
> accordance with Section (R301).
> B.  RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances.
> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire separation 
> distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction."
> 
> 5.  Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In 
> California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on 
> what type of blue flowers would be okay. 
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> All the best, 
> 
> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master 
> Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037
> Contract Training Provider (CTP)
> Adjunct Professor, Energy
> 
> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56, 
> D31, C-7
> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
> 
> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections 
> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
> 
> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors  
> #7035507
> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider
> 
> Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190
>
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink  wrote:
>> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his 
>> AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4, 
>> which states:
>> 
>>> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing 
>>> photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be 
>>> required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays.
>>  
>> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to 
>> prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the fire 
>> spreading.
>> 
>> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:
>> What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt? A pole 
>> mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation underneath?
>> What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" mean? "10 
>> feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in square feet.
>> What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush?
>> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation under 
>> the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except for 
>> pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me).
>> 
>> I always recommend to clients that the area under the ground mount array 
>> should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Martin Herzfeld]

Dan,

I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an option
in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues.  In
addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff
as ESSs.

1.  By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - which
we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees and
shrubs."

2.  The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is a
setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) foot
rule.

3.  I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole
Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open
Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where
you can not walk underneath.

4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too?

"A.   RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems.

Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in
accordance with Section (R301).

B.  RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances.

Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire separation
distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction."


5.  Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In
California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on
what type of blue flowers would be okay.


What do you think?

All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC
10037
Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56,
D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance,
Instrumentation

Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors
#7035507
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider

Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190


On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink  wrote:

> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his
> AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4,
> which states:
>
> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing
>> photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be
>> required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays.
>
>
> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to
> prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the
> fire spreading.
>
> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:
>
>- What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt?
>A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation
>underneath?
>- What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)"
>mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in
>square feet.
>- What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush?
>
> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation
> under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except
> for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me).
>
> I always recommend to clients that the area *under* the ground mount
> array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet
> from the array edge seems excessive.
>
> Any input greatly appreciated!
>
> Dan Fink
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
> NABCEP PV Associate
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

In our area of California, when the green grass dies and turns brown,
the area under any type of array needs to be free of grass. An array could
ignite a wildfire if the array were emit sparks. This is a very rare
condition but it can happen to even the best design and module type.


There would not be any brush anywhere near an array. 10 feet from any
point of the array makes sense but if there were a wildfire I would want
alot more. 100 feet is typical for the zone around a home. That is what our
AHJ wants to see in an inspection. We are in a very dangerous area for
wildfires in the southern Sierra. 

Brush does not count as grass. An array
should survive a grass fire. Brush would be much more dangerous and must be
kept clear as it is a much larger heat source than grass. I hope this is
helpful.  
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600, Dan Fink  wrote:
 Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and
his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section
1204.4, which states:   Setback requirements shall not apply to
ground-mounted, free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area
of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic
arrays.   I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this
was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and
the fire spreading.   So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our
questions are:  

* What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array"
that is exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite
vegetation underneath?
* What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of
10 feet (3048 mm)" mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area,
that would be in square feet.
* What is "brush"? Does grass count as
brush?

  I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all
vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be
cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to
me).   I always recommend to clients that the area _under_ the ground mount
array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet
from the array edge seems excessive.   Any input greatly appreciated!  
   Dan Fink  Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV
Associate
 NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified
Instructor(tm) for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [3]anbo...@gmail.com [4]
970-672-4342  
  

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com
[4] mailto:anbo...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors

[Benn Kilburn]

Glenn,
I've installed an 80+kW and a couple 10+kW systems using this Nuance
system.  They are assembled fairly quickly and the legs are adjustable for
uneven ground, which is nice.
The ease of driving the cable anchors into the ground will, of course,
depend on the site.  Luckily, i had no issue with rocks and the only real
issue i had driving the anchors was the driving rod separating once or
twice (due to the length of anchors for our location, we needed a 2-piece
driving rod).
Testing the (pull-out strength) anchors is a bit cumbersome and we have not
come up with a way of re-testing the front ones once the mods are
installed.  Make sure you use a scale that has a "max pull" feature to hold
the max pull-out strength otherwise the numbers are constantly moving and
difficult to read.
Hopefully they have added leg braces to the front legs where they are
needed more so than just on the back legs.  If they haven't, then i suggest
requesting them as the front legs *will* buckle under high wind from the
north.

I'm not convinced that they are a solid ground mount solution as the
cable-anchor system does allow for some movement so they will allow for the
full array/rack to shift and move, as i have seen on the 80kW system.


Benn Kilburn
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
Employee Owner
14515 - 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2
Direct: 780-784-1706 | Office: 780-474-8992
*www.skyfireenergy.com *






On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 1:31 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Wrenches/Glen
> I know nuance, they must be trailered or crained into position, leveled on
> site and cables are driven in and pre-loaded and cable locks installed. I
> have there products around California along with the predecessor. Delivery
> can be an issue and there team does the cables so that's something to
> consider too. They are fast to install, pre-layout the conduit and drop and
> very quickly you are up and running. We have also done there blasted
> version with concrete blocks or even just 36" pin anchors
> Jerry
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>>
>>
>> We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and
>> concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems.
>>
>> I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set
>> on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and
>> attached cables to secure it.
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn Burt
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors

[Chris Schaefer]

Glen,
I just completed a three aray project. Call me @ 585-748-1870 and I'll tell
you all about it.

Christopher Schaefer

On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 3:31 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Wrenches/Glen
> I know nuance, they must be trailered or crained into position, leveled on
> site and cables are driven in and pre-loaded and cable locks installed. I
> have there products around California along with the predecessor. Delivery
> can be an issue and there team does the cables so that's something to
> consider too. They are fast to install, pre-layout the conduit and drop and
> very quickly you are up and running. We have also done there blasted
> version with concrete blocks or even just 36" pin anchors
> Jerry
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>>
>>
>> We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and
>> concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems.
>>
>> I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set
>> on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and
>> attached cables to secure it.
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn Burt
>>
>>
>> ___
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*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches/Glen
I know nuance, they must be trailered or crained into position, leveled on
site and cables are driven in and pre-loaded and cable locks installed. I
have there products around California along with the predecessor. Delivery
can be an issue and there team does the cables so that's something to
consider too. They are fast to install, pre-layout the conduit and drop and
very quickly you are up and running. We have also done there blasted
version with concrete blocks or even just 36" pin anchors
Jerry

On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
>
> We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and
> concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems.
>
> I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set
> on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and
> attached cables to secure it.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Glenn Burt
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope

[AE Solar]

You can use kee klamp swivel fittings with schedule 40 pipe for posts

On Friday, August 21, 2015, jerrysgarage01 jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wrenches
 Its been a few years but I have gotten top plates from unirac UL- A
 racking that was tilited give them a call or even have them fab-ed up your
 self.
 Jerry


 Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone


  Original message 
 From: frenergy
 Date:08/21/2015 3:31 AM (GMT-10:00)
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope

 We recently did a job like this on a 17 degree slope, if it helps...

 Bill
 Feather River Solar Electric


 - Original Message -
 From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','will...@millersolar.com');
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org');
 Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:39 PM
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope


  Friends:
 
  I am looking for a ground mount racking system that can be installed on
 a
  15 degree slope down to the east. I'd like the verticals to be set in
  concrete or driven vertically with the horizontals to slope at 15
 degrees.
 
  The racking we have used heretofore has required the horizontal members
 to
  be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals. What I am seeking
 would
  allow some adjustment of that angle.
 
  Thanks in advance.
 
  William
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope

[jerrysgarage01]

Wrenches
Its been a few years but I have gotten top plates from unirac UL- A racking 
that was tilited give them a call or even have them fab-ed up your self.
Jerry


Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone

div Original message /divdivFrom: frenergy 
frene...@psln.com /divdivDate:08/21/2015  3:31 AM  (GMT-10:00) 
/divdivTo: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
/divdivSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope 
/divdiv
/divWe recently did a job like this on a 17 degree slope, if it helps...

Bill
Feather River Solar Electric


- Original Message - 
From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:39 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope


 Friends:

 I am looking for a ground mount racking system that can be installed on a 
 15 degree slope down to the east. I'd like the verticals to be set in 
 concrete or driven vertically with the horizontals to slope at 15 degrees.

 The racking we have used heretofore has required the horizontal members to 
 be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals. What I am seeking would 
 allow some adjustment of that angle.

 Thanks in advance.

 William


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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground-mounted systems, performance

[Rebecca Lundberg]

Hi Jesse,

I'm curious about what you are seeing. We've seen better performance than
that on arrays with those modules, but don't have module-level monitoring
available on any of our systems. Does it look like there is a bipass diode
failure with the shattered modules (probably covered under warranty), or
was there something like lightning near your ground-mounted system? We have
a customer whose home received a direct lightning strike recently (no fire
or human injury!), and 100% of the PV system needs to be replaced (except
flashing/racking), unfortunately.

I thought the delamination issues were only (or mostly) generation 2
modules and only in our state, but wonder if any installers in other places
(WA?) are seeing this too?

Keep Shining!
Rebecca Lundberg
Powerfully Green

Message: 4
 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 17:30:02 -0500
 From: Solar dahlso...@gmail.com
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems
 Message-ID: 69f1d6ab-a424-4bc9-a1df-9bef5d3c4...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 William Miller has some nice ideas on his website regarding protecting
 circuits. I've used his ideas on one project and the inspector liked it.

 Silicon Energy makes a module with raceways for output circuits. Their
 module is expensive comparatively speaking and I've never seen one of their
 190W modules produce over 155W (using Tigos to monitor) they've also had
 some delimitation problems with modules made here in MN and one of my
 Silicon Energy systems has two modules with the glass shattered on it that
 I discovered today.

 Jesse Dahl

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground-mounted systems, performance

[Alex Cozine]

The only problem I've seen was due to a sloped hillside and a riding
lawnmower projectile.  These modules are what refer to as the Cadillac of
modules.  If you have a chance to use them, you should.


On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Rebecca Lundberg 
rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com wrote:

 Hi Jesse,

 I'm curious about what you are seeing. We've seen better performance than
 that on arrays with those modules, but don't have module-level monitoring
 available on any of our systems. Does it look like there is a bipass diode
 failure with the shattered modules (probably covered under warranty), or
 was there something like lightning near your ground-mounted system? We have
 a customer whose home received a direct lightning strike recently (no fire
 or human injury!), and 100% of the PV system needs to be replaced (except
 flashing/racking), unfortunately.

 I thought the delamination issues were only (or mostly) generation 2
 modules and only in our state, but wonder if any installers in other places
 (WA?) are seeing this too?

 Keep Shining!
 Rebecca Lundberg
 Powerfully Green

 Message: 4
 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 17:30:02 -0500
 From: Solar dahlso...@gmail.com
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems
 Message-ID: 69f1d6ab-a424-4bc9-a1df-9bef5d3c4...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 William Miller has some nice ideas on his website regarding protecting
 circuits. I've used his ideas on one project and the inspector liked it.

 Silicon Energy makes a module with raceways for output circuits. Their
 module is expensive comparatively speaking and I've never seen one of their
 190W modules produce over 155W (using Tigos to monitor) they've also had
 some delimitation problems with modules made here in MN and one of my
 Silicon Energy systems has two modules with the glass shattered on it that
 I discovered today.

 Jesse Dahl


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-- 
Alex Cozine
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Journeyman Electrician

Brothers Electric Solar
brotherselectricsolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems

[Robert Evans]

I have been using this product:

www.solarscrim.com

Its inexpensive, easy to install, and the inspectors in Santa Cruz county
like it.

I use the under array version just to cover the conductors.
Bob Evans
Evans Energy Systems
Santa Cruz, CA
831-345-3459
On Aug 8, 2014 2:50 PM, t...@ecs-solar.com wrote:

 GROUND MOUNTED SYSTEMS NEC 690.31 REQUIRING FENCING OR SOMETHING TO
 PREVENT THE VILLAGE IDIOT FROM PLAYING WITH THE PV source and output
 conductor circuits . Besides fencing what raceways or guarding passes code
 and what manufacturers have a raceway , etc . to provide physical
 protection and reduce electrical hazards . Will an PV electric fence
 charger A SINGLE WIRE  suffice , or does a moat with alligators suffice ,
 or a standard fence without barb concertina wire qualify . Where is the
 height code for fences ? Gator Tom

 Tom Lane
 Energy Conservation Services
 352.377.8866 (office)
 352.231.3495 (direct)
 www.ecs-solar.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems

[Solar]

William Miller has some nice ideas on his website regarding protecting 
circuits. I've used his ideas on one project and the inspector liked it. 

Silicon Energy makes a module with raceways for output circuits. Their module 
is expensive comparatively speaking and I've never seen one of their 190W 
modules produce over 155W (using Tigos to monitor) they've also had some 
delimitation problems with modules made here in MN and one of my Silicon Energy 
systems has two modules with the glass shattered on it that I discovered today. 
 

Jesse Dahl

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 8, 2014, at 5:11 PM, Robert Evans revans1...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I have been using this product:
 
 www.solarscrim.com
 
 Its inexpensive, easy to install, and the inspectors in Santa Cruz county 
 like it.
 
 I use the under array version just to cover the conductors. 
 Bob Evans
 Evans Energy Systems
 Santa Cruz, CA
 831-345-3459
 
 On Aug 8, 2014 2:50 PM, t...@ecs-solar.com wrote:
 GROUND MOUNTED SYSTEMS NEC 690.31 REQUIRING FENCING OR SOMETHING TO PREVENT 
 THE VILLAGE IDIOT FROM PLAYING WITH THE PV source and output conductor 
 circuits . Besides fencing what raceways or guarding passes code and what 
 manufacturers have a raceway , etc . to provide physical protection and 
 reduce electrical hazards . Will an PV electric fence charger A SINGLE 
 WIRE  suffice , or does a moat with alligators suffice , or a standard fence 
 without barb concertina wire qualify . Where is the height code for fences ? 
 Gator Tom
 
 Tom Lane
 Energy Conservation Services
 352.377.8866 (office)
 352.231.3495 (direct)
 www.ecs-solar.com 
 sigimg1
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems

[RE Ellison]

Look into US Solar Mounts, Eric has built in wire management and some real nice 
looking racks. I have been watching make constant improvements every year for 
quite a while.

 

Before his racks I thought DPW was the best we could get, These look tougher 
and the wire management is real slick.

Look close at some of the touches and it is impressive.

 

Bob Ellison 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of t...@ecs-solar.com
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 2:14 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems

 

GROUND MOUNTED SYSTEMS NEC 690.31 REQUIRING FENCING OR SOMETHING TO PREVENT THE 
VILLAGE IDIOT FROM PLAYING WITH THE PV source and output conductor circuits . 
Besides fencing what raceways or guarding passes code and what manufacturers 
have a raceway , etc . to provide physical protection and reduce electrical 
hazards . Will an PV electric fence charger A SINGLE WIRE  suffice , or 
does a moat with alligators suffice , or a standard fence without barb 
concertina wire qualify . Where is the height code for fences ? Gator Tom

 

Tom Lane

Energy Conservation Services
352.377.8866 (office)
352.231.3495 (direct)
www.ecs-solar.com 



 

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 3986/8000 - Release Date: 08/07/14

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 3986/8000 - Release Date: 08/07/14

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems

[Solar]

I saw a couple US Solar Mounts at the energy fair in WI this summer. I really 
liked their setup. I forgot about them. They do have wire management. 

Jesse 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 8, 2014, at 6:48 PM, RE Ellison reelli...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Look into US Solar Mounts, Eric has built in wire management and some real 
 nice looking racks. I have been watching make constant improvements every 
 year for quite a while.
  
 Before his racks I thought DPW was the best we could get, These look tougher 
 and the wire management is real slick.
 Look close at some of the touches and it is impressive.
  
 Bob Ellison
  
 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
 Behalf Of t...@ecs-solar.com
 Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 2:14 PM
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ground mounted systems
  
 GROUND MOUNTED SYSTEMS NEC 690.31 REQUIRING FENCING OR SOMETHING TO PREVENT 
 THE VILLAGE IDIOT FROM PLAYING WITH THE PV source and output conductor 
 circuits . Besides fencing what raceways or guarding passes code and what 
 manufacturers have a raceway , etc . to provide physical protection and 
 reduce electrical hazards . Will an PV electric fence charger A SINGLE 
 WIRE  suffice , or does a moat with alligators suffice , or a standard fence 
 without barb concertina wire qualify . Where is the height code for fences ? 
 Gator Tom
  
 Tom Lane
 Energy Conservation Services
 352.377.8866 (office)
 352.231.3495 (direct)
 www.ecs-solar.com 
 image001.jpg
  
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 3986/8000 - Release Date: 08/07/14
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 3986/8000 - Release Date: 08/07/14
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount options?

[jay peltz]

How large an array are you needing?

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:23 PM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello,
 
 I've been asked to put together a proposal for a local community and the only 
 option is a ground mount (pole mount would work too).  I've looked at a few 
 options today and was wondering if anyone has any opinions on the DPW Power 
 Peak mounting system?  
 
 Also, I would be interested in any other ground mount options that people 
 like/recommend.  I've used the two-tier mount on a few projects and the DPW 
 MPM and liked them good enough, but I'm always interested in trying new 
 mounts.  
 
 Thanks!
 
 
 Jesse
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount options?

[Jesse Dahl]

They want two sizes proposed to them so I was going to go with a 40kW and a 
11kW-15kW. 

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 18, 2013, at 9:01 AM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote:

 How large an array are you needing?
 
 Jay
 
 Peltz power
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:23 PM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hello,
 
 I've been asked to put together a proposal for a local community and the 
 only option is a ground mount (pole mount would work too).  I've looked at a 
 few options today and was wondering if anyone has any opinions on the DPW 
 Power Peak mounting system?  
 
 Also, I would be interested in any other ground mount options that people 
 like/recommend.  I've used the two-tier mount on a few projects and the DPW 
 MPM and liked them good enough, but I'm always interested in trying new 
 mounts.  
 
 Thanks!
 
 
 Jesse
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount options?

[Benn Kilburn - DayStar Renewable Energy]

Jesse,
Schletter PV Max is a great ground mount system.  Requires concrete
footers/pads.
when it comes to putting up the rack, it assembles very quickly.  And two
guys can easily mount 24 mods in under an hour. (just mounting, not wiring)

Benn 

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
www.daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807 
Construction Electrician Solar PV Systems Certified
Certificate # 0007S
HAVE A SUNNY DAY

From:  Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com
Reply-To:  RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date:  Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:23 PM
To:  RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject:  [RE-wrenches] ground mount options?

 Hello,
 
 I've been asked to put together a proposal for a local community and the only
 option is a ground mount (pole mount would work too).  I've looked at a few
 options today and was wondering if anyone has any opinions on the DPW Power
 Peak mounting system?
 
 Also, I would be interested in any other ground mount options that people
 like/recommend.  I've used the two-tier mount on a few projects and the DPW
 MPM and liked them good enough, but I'm always interested in trying new
 mounts.  
 
 Thanks!
 
 
 Jesse
 ___ List sponsored by Home Power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount options?

[Chris Anderson]

Schletter has a nice small kit package if you are looking for something in
AL.
Terrasmart is also a favorite of ours for challenging soil conditions -
their ground screws go through anything. Great team over there too.
Sunlink LGMS flies up if you have good flat soil. Pricey at small sizes but
cost effective for larger projects.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello,

 I've been asked to put together a proposal for a local community and the
 only option is a ground mount (pole mount would work too).  I've looked at
 a few options today and was wondering if anyone has any opinions on the DPW
 Power Peak mounting system?

 Also, I would be interested in any other ground mount options that people
 like/recommend.  I've used the two-tier mount on a few projects and the DPW
 MPM and liked them good enough, but I'm always interested in trying new
 mounts.

 Thanks!


 Jesse

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-- 

Regards,

Chris Anderson
Chief Technology Officer
Borrego Solar Systems
1115 Westford Street, 2nd floor
Lowell, MA  01851
M: 603-732-2411
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground fault

[dan]

Kinda sounds temp related.. Maybe a panel defect. You might still be able to pick it up with a good Super Soaker (change the panel temp/flex it). Just be careful not to shock them too much if they're hot (and be sure to wear your good Terminator Shades and keep a straight face). Sounds like you hit a nerve. Good luck.. let us know. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] ground fault
From: mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, October 02, 2012 8:54 am
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hello wrenches,One of our installers has been in the process of looking for an intermittent ground fault for a couple weeks, and seems to be getting some very odd behavior. Maybe someone can help to figure out what is going on. 1 A GFI fuse seems to blow after 1-2 weeks, certainly not instantaneousDoesn't appear to be related to moisture, has happened in very dry conditionsAfter jiggling the wires around a bit yesterday, and unlanding the DC strings to the inverter, he was able to see a ground to DC negative voltage of 60V. Aha! He thought, the ground fault must be 2 modules into the string from the negative homerun. They examined all of the wiring, everything looked fine, replugged it back in, and were surprised to see 120V from ground to negative at the inverter. After more jiggling, the voltage disappeared completely of course. No apparent wire damage. The change in voltage from ground to DC negative is what has me very confused.I will be heading out there today to take a look. I could use some ideas. Thanks-- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada."-Sócrates   ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[James Rudolph]

I agree with Ray. The best ground clamp I have found for the money ($1600)
is the Fluke 1630 ,its real easy to use and work well.

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:41 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

 I'm a big fan of grounding at the array, and was sorry to lose 690.47D
 (which also clearly allowed the structure to be considered an electrode) .
 I think if you look at the sq ft. of metal in contact with the concrete,
 you can make a credible case for the frame fitting the definition of an
 electrode. IMHO, it's all about a low impedance path to ground.  Whether
 it's 20 ft of 1/2 rebar, or 4 ft of 6 diam pipe, or 4 ft of 2 x 2 angle
 iron, its all roughly the same required 2 sq ft of surface area in contact
 with the concrete.

 Actually if you want to be a real stickler and also enforce 250.53A2, a
 tough AHJ might demand 2 electrodes at the array in addition to the
 structural grounding all ready present.
 Me? I like the exception if the measured ground impedance is less than 25
 ohm. Most inspectors will be more than satisfied, if you just show them a
 quick reading with a clamp-on ground impedance tester.
 What If you're still over 25 ohms? If you're in lightning country, you
 really should sink another electrode anyway.

 Ray


  On 9/30/2011 7:04 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:

 Ray,

 I believe that a pole-mounted or grounded-mounted PV array is considered a
 structure and requires a ground electrode per 250.32.  Perhaps the exception
 would cover the possibility a installing very small system without a ground
 electrode.

 Kent Osterberg
 Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



 Ray Walters wrote:

 I've also used 250.52A(7) defining plate electrodes. A 6 Sch 40 pipe 4
 ft in the ground has more than the required 2 sq ft of surface metal, and is
 at least the required 1/4 thickness.
 Also, the 2011 NEC dropped 690.47 D which required a grounding electrode
 at the array. Are you sure you still need this? I believe 2011 only requires
 you bond all the metal to the EGC, as always.

 Ray Walters

 On 9/30/2011 8:24 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:

 The requirements listed in 250.52(3) were changed in 2011. The rebar
 used is allowed to be near the bottom of the footing or in vertical
 foundation walls that are in direct contact with earth. If there was in
 doubt in the past that the rebar in the concrete of a pole mount was a
 suitable grounding electrode, the changes in 2011 should remove it.

 Kent Osterberg
 Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.

 Richard L Ratico wrote:

 As Dan points out, 250.52(A)(3) specifies several installation
 requirements in
 order for a concrete encased electode to qualify as a permitted
 Grounding
 Electrode. A pole mount foundation would certainly qualify if it met
 those
 requirements.

 Even if the requirements are not met, IMHO, any opportunity to
 inexpensively
 increase the grounding integrity of a system should not be overlooked,
 particularly in lightning country. Of course, a code compliant
 Grounding
 Electrode System is still required. Bonding a non compliant, but never
 the less,
 very substantial additional electrode to that system would not hurt
 anything
 and quite possibly help considerably.
 Dick Ratico
 Solarwind Electric


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NABCEP Certified PV Installer

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[Kent Osterberg]

The requirements listed in 250.52(3) were changed in 2011. The rebar 
used is allowed to be near the bottom of the footing or in vertical 
foundation walls that are in direct contact with earth. If there was in 
doubt in the past that the rebar in the concrete of a pole mount was a 
suitable grounding electrode, the changes in 2011 should remove it.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.

Richard L Ratico wrote:

As Dan points out, 250.52(A)(3) specifies several installation requirements in
order for a concrete encased electode to qualify as a permitted Grounding
Electrode. A pole mount foundation would certainly qualify if it met those
requirements.

Even if the requirements are not met, IMHO, any opportunity to inexpensively
increase the grounding integrity of a system should not be overlooked,
particularly in lightning country. Of course, a code compliant Grounding
Electrode System is still required. Bonding a non compliant, but never the less,
very substantial additional electrode to that system would not hurt anything
and quite possibly help considerably. 


Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[James Rudolph]

Todd,

Article 250.52(a)(3) from the 2008 Code states this

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased
by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally
near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a
concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with
the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more
bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive
coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm
(1⁄2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of
bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing
bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the
usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple
concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building
or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into
the grounding electrode system.

It would be wise to consult the local AHJ if this is permisssble with the
rebar. You want to make sure that you have the best grounding system
possible with the chance of a lighting strike.

Good Luck!


On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 4:10 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

 Does anyone know if it is ok to use the rebar in a pole mount foundation as
 a ufer ground? I need to ask the inspector too, but thought I'd ask here
 first.



 Todd







 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[Ray Walters]

I've also used 250.52A(7) defining plate electrodes. A 6 Sch 40 pipe 4 
ft in the ground has more than the required 2 sq ft of surface metal, 
and is at least the required 1/4 thickness.
Also, the 2011 NEC dropped 690.47 D which required a grounding electrode 
at the array. Are you sure you still need this? I believe 2011 only 
requires you bond all the metal to the EGC, as always.


Ray Walters

On 9/30/2011 8:24 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
The requirements listed in 250.52(3) were changed in 2011. The rebar 
used is allowed to be near the bottom of the footing or in vertical 
foundation walls that are in direct contact with earth. If there was 
in doubt in the past that the rebar in the concrete of a pole mount 
was a suitable grounding electrode, the changes in 2011 should remove it.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.

Richard L Ratico wrote:
As Dan points out, 250.52(A)(3) specifies several installation 
requirements in
order for a concrete encased electode to qualify as a permitted 
Grounding
Electrode. A pole mount foundation would certainly qualify if it met 
those

requirements.

Even if the requirements are not met, IMHO, any opportunity to 
inexpensively

increase the grounding integrity of a system should not be overlooked,
particularly in lightning country. Of course, a code compliant Grounding
Electrode System is still required. Bonding a non compliant, but 
never the less,
very substantial additional electrode to that system would not hurt 
anything

and quite possibly help considerably.
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[Kent Osterberg]

Ray,

I believe that a pole-mounted or grounded-mounted PV array is considered 
a structure and requires a ground electrode per 250.32.  Perhaps the 
exception would cover the possibility a installing very small system 
without a ground electrode.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



Ray Walters wrote:
I've also used 250.52A(7) defining plate electrodes. A 6 Sch 40 pipe 
4 ft in the ground has more than the required 2 sq ft of surface 
metal, and is at least the required 1/4 thickness.
Also, the 2011 NEC dropped 690.47 D which required a grounding 
electrode at the array. Are you sure you still need this? I believe 
2011 only requires you bond all the metal to the EGC, as always.


Ray Walters

On 9/30/2011 8:24 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
The requirements listed in 250.52(3) were changed in 2011. The rebar 
used is allowed to be near the bottom of the footing or in vertical 
foundation walls that are in direct contact with earth. If there was 
in doubt in the past that the rebar in the concrete of a pole mount 
was a suitable grounding electrode, the changes in 2011 should remove 
it.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.

Richard L Ratico wrote:
As Dan points out, 250.52(A)(3) specifies several installation 
requirements in
order for a concrete encased electode to qualify as a permitted 
Grounding
Electrode. A pole mount foundation would certainly qualify if it met 
those

requirements.

Even if the requirements are not met, IMHO, any opportunity to 
inexpensively

increase the grounding integrity of a system should not be overlooked,
particularly in lightning country. Of course, a code compliant 
Grounding
Electrode System is still required. Bonding a non compliant, but 
never the less,
very substantial additional electrode to that system would not 
hurt anything

and quite possibly help considerably.
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric



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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[Ray Walters]

I'm a big fan of grounding at the array, and was sorry to lose 690.47D 
(which also clearly allowed the structure to be considered an electrode) .
I think if you look at the sq ft. of metal in contact with the concrete, 
you can make a credible case for the frame fitting the definition of an 
electrode. IMHO, it's all about a low impedance path to ground.  Whether 
it's 20 ft of 1/2 rebar, or 4 ft of 6 diam pipe, or 4 ft of 2 x 2 
angle iron, its all roughly the same required 2 sq ft of surface area in 
contact with the concrete.


Actually if you want to be a real stickler and also enforce 250.53A2, a 
tough AHJ might demand 2 electrodes at the array in addition to the 
structural grounding all ready present.
Me? I like the exception if the measured ground impedance is less than 
25 ohm. Most inspectors will be more than satisfied, if you just show 
them a quick reading with a clamp-on ground impedance tester.
What If you're still over 25 ohms? If you're in lightning country, you 
really should sink another electrode anyway.


Ray

 On 9/30/2011 7:04 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Ray,

I believe that a pole-mounted or grounded-mounted PV array is 
considered a structure and requires a ground electrode per 250.32.  
Perhaps the exception would cover the possibility a installing very 
small system without a ground electrode.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



Ray Walters wrote:
I've also used 250.52A(7) defining plate electrodes. A 6 Sch 40 pipe 
4 ft in the ground has more than the required 2 sq ft of surface 
metal, and is at least the required 1/4 thickness.
Also, the 2011 NEC dropped 690.47 D which required a grounding 
electrode at the array. Are you sure you still need this? I believe 
2011 only requires you bond all the metal to the EGC, as always.


Ray Walters

On 9/30/2011 8:24 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
The requirements listed in 250.52(3) were changed in 2011. The rebar 
used is allowed to be near the bottom of the footing or in vertical 
foundation walls that are in direct contact with earth. If there was 
in doubt in the past that the rebar in the concrete of a pole mount 
was a suitable grounding electrode, the changes in 2011 should 
remove it.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.

Richard L Ratico wrote:
As Dan points out, 250.52(A)(3) specifies several installation 
requirements in
order for a concrete encased electode to qualify as a permitted 
Grounding
Electrode. A pole mount foundation would certainly qualify if it 
met those

requirements.

Even if the requirements are not met, IMHO, any opportunity to 
inexpensively

increase the grounding integrity of a system should not be overlooked,
particularly in lightning country. Of course, a code compliant 
Grounding
Electrode System is still required. Bonding a non compliant, but 
never the less,
very substantial additional electrode to that system would not 
hurt anything

and quite possibly help considerably.
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric



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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground

[Kent Osterberg]

See NEC 250.52.

If there is 10 feet of pipe in the ground, that qualifies as a
grounding electrode. The foundation rebar qualifies as a grounding
electrode too, but it must have a length of at least 20 feet. If using
multiple pieces to get 20 feet they must be bonded (or simply wired)
together. 

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.


toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

  Does anyone know if it is
ok to use the rebar in a pole mount foundation as a ufer ground? I need
to ask the inspector too, but thought I'd ask
here first.
   
  Todd
   
  
  
  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Faults and Designing PV systems for lightning prone areas

[bob ellison]

I would expect that a lightning strike could energize everything, but not
necessarily equally. I can't see it, not popping breakers and ground faults.


But that does not mean that it will every time.

I have seen it pop some breakers but not others, in the same box.

You can bet that it is not bothered by a breaker, open or closed.

 

Just my .02 worth,

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rich Nicol
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:17 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Faults and Designing PV systems for lightning
prone areas

 

Hi Wrenches

Is there a connection between lightening strikes and ground fault fuses
popping? Can lightening strikes energize the grounding electrode and thereby
pop a ground fault fuse? 

Thanks for your input,

Rich

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl
Thayer
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 10:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Designing PV systems for lightning prone areas

 

Lightening has a high voltage and HIgh current and High frequency.  The
lightening has gathered it energy over a large area, It has either picked up
electrons or lost electrons to generate this large Potential The electrons
want to return to the earth, So you do not want that path to be through your
equipment.  

1) ESTABILSH A GOOD GROUND ROD ( i had a system that had blown up about 3
times, I drove a 3/4 sectioned ground rod 80' and then drove another about
20  feet away.  Tied the two together and to the frames of my modules.  Then
I took aand connected to the module conductors, using a MOV similar to what
Midnight solar sells.  The system is in a higher relative area, this I did
in 2003 it has never blown up since   

 

From: James Rudolph jamesrudolp...@gmail.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 11:32 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Designing PV systems for lightning prone areas


Dear Wrenches,

Does anybody have any best practices for designing large PV arrays on metal
building in lightning prone areas? Lightning arrestors on the DC side and
Surge suppressors on the AC load side? Any input or resources would be
greatly appreciated.

Sunny Regards,
 
James Rudolph
NABCEP Certified Installer
Master Electrician
SF Energy

 

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Bill Brooks]

Mark,

I certainly was not implying that you were in any way unintelligent. I was
merely suggesting that fences or only one means of compliance. You have a
different opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, if all jurisdictions
viewed prevention of ready access to mean fences, that would not be good for
the PV industry as a whole. 

Both crawl spaces and unfinished basements can have numerous hazards so
these locations are generally not seen as habitable and should not be
readily accessible locations. However, a garage does require that NM be
above 8' or protected--usually by sheetrock--below 8 feet. Under a PV array
that is lower than 8' would be like a crawl space only if access to the
underside were protected as crawl spaces should be. We tried to get specific
language in the NEC on types of guards that were permitted, but the Code
Making Panel rejected the proposal stating that it was well-understood in
the electrical industry how to prevent ready access--maybe not so much.

The much bigger problem is that installers put not protection around their
wiring systems so that children can use the black vines to play Tarzan on
them. I think you would agree that is not good--but we see it all the time
in rural areas. 

Animals are another big problem in certain places. While this thread is
about ground mount systems, roof mounting in wooded areas populated by
squirrels is a serious problem--as discussed many times in this forum. The
code currently does not address this problem, but perimeter screening may be
a requirement in the future to prevent both squirrels and debris from
creating a fire hazard under a PV array. Just yesterday I was talking to a
contractor that had just come back from an installation with a fully eaten
6-foot section of USE-2 where they had to remove the array to repair the
wiring. Fortunately, the ground fault protection activated and prevented a
fire.

Bill.



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 5:51 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Bill,

I don't really want to call you out, but I also don't like you lording your
expertise over me, implying that I am stupid and I am going to get myself
killed someday, or worse yet kill someone else:

1 - 2008 NEC 334.15 NM Cable...Exposed Work(C) in unfinished basements.
What exactly changed in 1990 to prevent the scenario I mentioned?
2 - Which code are you referring to that includes wood lattice as part of a
minimum standard for guarding exposed electrical work?
3 - I think I understand the definition of readily accessible fairly well
and think there is a basis to argue that placing wood lattice around a
ground mount rack does not mean that the exposed wiring on the rack is no
longer in a readily accessible location. The use of the term remove
obstacles in the definition of readily accessible refers to obstacles that
prevent personnel from approaching the workspace around equipment. In this
sense the lattice may serve as a guard to the otherwise exposed wiring, but
it does not change the fact that wiring is in a readily accessible location
and must therefore, according to Code, be run in a raceway. Only placing a
fence around the entire rack (such that the workspace around the equipment
therein can no longer be reached quickly) eliminates the requirement that
the PV circuit conductor be run in raceway.

The Code is in place and we will all learn how to work with it. But I think
this issue points out the continuing growing pains of the industry when we
are still talking about on one hand the detailed requirements of a UL1741
inverter and on the other the use of garden supply material as requirements
for ensuring the safety of the system we build.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:55 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Mark,

The fact is you can't legally walk up and touch NM cable anymore. Whenever
your house was built, that may have been code compliant, but not since the
early 1990s has that been allowed. You may think a wooden lattice work is
insufficient protection, but the code disagrees with you as a minimum
standard. You can build all the chain link fences you want around your PV
systems. Not me. It is a waste of money. The code is addressing the issue of
readily accessible. Darwin awards are plentiful for people who want to get
themselves into trouble. We just have to make it a little more difficult for
unsuspecting kids using the underside of a PV array for a play fort. You
obviously haven't been to one of my code trainings in a long time. Maybe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Drake]

Bill,

Thanks for the good idea.  Using a nonconductive material for the 
screening makes sense.  Lattice should be sufficient to keep hands, 
especially little hands, away from the wiring.  My understanding of 
the rule is that protection is required to prevent easy access to the 
always energized DC wiring, not the 240 VAC which will de-energize 
when the wiring is disconnected.  Lattice should be adequate, if it 
makes the AHJ happy.


Drake


At 05:57 PM 10/21/2010, you wrote:

Drake,

I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.

Bill.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase
inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output
conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a
raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course
it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that
would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?

The NEC Handbook comments Most PV modules do not have provisions for
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made not readily
accessible by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.

I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the
E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work
that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence
around the array?

Thanks,

Drake

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[William Miller]

Bill:

I suppose cheap lattice would do the job, but I can't seem to get 
comfortable with the idea aesthetically.  When installing PV, I keep the 
mind set that I am installing an industrial power generating system.  You 
would not see cheap materials or un-workman-like practices at a commercial 
power generating plant, and so I don't allow that on my installs.


I use aluminum for shielding.  I have used sheet aluminum and expanded 
aluminum.  It is not that hard to bond.  For expanded aluminum, I use a 
dual-rated split bolt on one of the webs (with no-alox), and for sheet 
aluminum, I use WEEB clips.


See photos about half way down the page 
here: 
http://millersolar.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html


William





At 02:57 PM 10/21/2010, you wrote:

Drake,

I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.

Bill.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase
inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output
conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a
raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course
it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that
would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?

The NEC Handbook comments Most PV modules do not have provisions for
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made not readily
accessible by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.

I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the
E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work
that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence
around the array?

Thanks,

Drake

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.448 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3210 - Release Date: 10/21/10 
06:34:00


Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Bill Brooks]

Mark,

Although these are tough issues, I don't see that the sky is falling or that
systems are too dangerous to install in residential applications.

That being said, I think we are still a ways off from safe PV systems. My
opinion is that some type of smart PV modules that can do ground-fault and
arc-fault detection will become the practical solution to safety issues
related to buildings and people. The critical things with module level
control is reliability, efficiency, and cost. It is too soon to broadly
require these technologies, but safety concerns will push the development.
It is not unlikely that the 2014 NEC will have requirements that the PV
industry has not widely adopted on its own.

The 2011 NEC already requires series arc fault detection, which is not
currently available nor are there published standards to evaluate them. It
is an interesting time with lots of changes currently underway.

Bill.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:24 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Thanks for the response Bill.

It's a tough nut to crack and we are all doing our best to move the industry
forward.

It is interesting that you bring up the issue of vermin. Unfortunately, I
had to address squirrel damage on one of my own residential roof top
installations. Not pretty. But the one thing I can say is that a squirrel
can eat right through both wood or plastic lattice in a heart beat. For that
matter, a squirrel can move right through a standard steel chain link fence.

So where does that really leave residential level PV installations in the
US. It appears that everywhere we turn we see more and more issue being
brought up, with ad hoc solutions that make installation more and more
difficult. Are we really moving in a direction that PV is so complicated and
dangerous that I can only be installed in commercial and industrial venues
where these concerns can be managed in the context of access by qualified
personnel only?
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 8:27 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Mark,

I certainly was not implying that you were in any way unintelligent. I was
merely suggesting that fences or only one means of compliance. You have a
different opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, if all jurisdictions
viewed prevention of ready access to mean fences, that would not be good for
the PV industry as a whole. 

Both crawl spaces and unfinished basements can have numerous hazards so
these locations are generally not seen as habitable and should not be
readily accessible locations. However, a garage does require that NM be
above 8' or protected--usually by sheetrock--below 8 feet. Under a PV array
that is lower than 8' would be like a crawl space only if access to the
underside were protected as crawl spaces should be. We tried to get specific
language in the NEC on types of guards that were permitted, but the Code
Making Panel rejected the proposal stating that it was well-understood in
the electrical industry how to prevent ready access--maybe not so much.

The much bigger problem is that installers put not protection around their
wiring systems so that children can use the black vines to play Tarzan on
them. I think you would agree that is not good--but we see it all the time
in rural areas. 

Animals are another big problem in certain places. While this thread is
about ground mount systems, roof mounting in wooded areas populated by
squirrels is a serious problem--as discussed many times in this forum. The
code currently does not address this problem, but perimeter screening may be
a requirement in the future to prevent both squirrels and debris from
creating a fire hazard under a PV array. Just yesterday I was talking to a
contractor that had just come back from an installation with a fully eaten
6-foot section of USE-2 where they had to remove the array to repair the
wiring. Fortunately, the ground fault protection activated and prevented a
fire.

Bill.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Dave Click]

How about hardware cloth along the back of the array beneath the rails? 
I think that's been suggested on this list before.


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening
From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: 2010/10/21 12:34


Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase inverters. 690.31
requires readily accessible source and output conductors OPERATING at
over 30 volts to be installed in a raceway. The Vmp of the REC230PE
modules is 29.4 volts. Of course it would go higher in cold weather. Do
I have any argument that would allow us to not install the DC conductors
in a raceway?

The NEC Handbook comments Most PV modules do not have provisions for
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made not readily
accessible by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.

I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the E,
W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily
accessible. Does anyone know what this is? What else would work that
would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence around the
array?

Thanks,

Drake
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[William Miller]

Drake:

Who is manufacturing the racking?  DPW has worked with us to develop some 
screening options.  WE have also developed our own screening (and wire 
management) procedures.  We spend a lot of time creating these procedures 
we keep them to ourselves to prevent local competitors from stealing 
appropriating ideas.  I can give you more ideas off list.


I think we all need to be calling racking manufacturers and requesting they 
develop screening and wire management options for their products.


William Miller



At 09:34 AM 10/21/2010, you wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase inverters.  690.31 
requires readily accessible source and output conductors OPERATING at over 
30 volts to be installed in a raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 
29.4 volts.  Of course it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any 
argument that would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?


The NEC Handbook comments Most PV modules do not have provisions for 
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made not readily 
accessible by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.


I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the E, W 
and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work that 
would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence around the array?


Thanks,

Drake
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Please note new e-mail address and domain:

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Bill Brooks]

Drake,

I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.

Bill.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase 
inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output 
conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a 
raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course 
it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that 
would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?

The NEC Handbook comments Most PV modules do not have provisions for 
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made not readily 
accessible by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.

I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the 
E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work 
that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence 
around the array?

Thanks,

Drake 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Mark Frye]

I still wonder about the 30VDC requirement creeping into the Code.  But I
feel even more strange when, and it is hard to keep a straight face, let
alone actually think about relegating the integrity of my PV system
topanels of wood lattice. Perhaps Home Depot does have the right
idea about solar since I have to go there to get the cheapest of flimsy
matters in order to make a token gesture to a suspect Code requirement.

Come on, if the requirement of the Code is based on sustentative safety
issues, it seems that the minimum appropriate response for a ground mount PV
system would be steel chain link fence.

Hell we have a pool here at our condo and we need a 5 foot metal fence with
self closing gate to keep kids out.  The County would laugh at me if I went
and asked if I could replace it with a wood lattice fence.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:57 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Drake,

I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.

Bill.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Jason Szumlanski]

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do you 
draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How about 
bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced 
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice if 
a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap) method to 
cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and meeting code 
requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Oct 21, 2010, at 6:15 PM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:

 I still wonder about the 30VDC requirement creeping into the Code.  But I
 feel even more strange when, and it is hard to keep a straight face, let
 alone actually think about relegating the integrity of my PV system
 topanels of wood lattice. Perhaps Home Depot does have the right
 idea about solar since I have to go there to get the cheapest of flimsy
 matters in order to make a token gesture to a suspect Code requirement.
 
 Come on, if the requirement of the Code is based on sustentative safety
 issues, it seems that the minimum appropriate response for a ground mount PV
 system would be steel chain link fence.
 
 Hell we have a pool here at our condo and we need a 5 foot metal fence with
 self closing gate to keep kids out.  The County would laugh at me if I went
 and asked if I could replace it with a wood lattice fence.
 
 Mark Frye
 Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
 303 Redbud Way
 Nevada City,  CA 95959
 (530) 401-8024
 www.berkeleysolar.com 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:57 PM
 To: 'RE-wrenches'
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening
 
 Drake,
 
 I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
 that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
 attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
 be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
 panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.
 
 Bill.
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Mark Frye]

You know, I can go down into my unfinished basement, through an unlocked
full height door.  The wiring in this space is fully Code compliant. And
yet, I can walk over and put my bare hand right onto a piece NM cable that
has 200A of 240 VAC running on it.

But God forbid I should be able to walk over to a PV array and put my hand
on a piece of double insulated PV wire with 10A of 30VDC running on it.

I don't get it.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do
you draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How
about bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice
if a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap)
method to cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and
meeting code requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local
interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Bill Brooks]

Mark,

The fact is you can't legally walk up and touch NM cable anymore. Whenever
your house was built, that may have been code compliant, but not since the
early 1990s has that been allowed. You may think a wooden lattice work is
insufficient protection, but the code disagrees with you as a minimum
standard. You can build all the chain link fences you want around your PV
systems. Not me. It is a waste of money. The code is addressing the issue of
readily accessible. Darwin awards are plentiful for people who want to get
themselves into trouble. We just have to make it a little more difficult for
unsuspecting kids using the underside of a PV array for a play fort. You
obviously haven't been to one of my code trainings in a long time. Maybe
it's time for a refresher.

The 30V limit has to do with the voltage at which serious shock can occur in
wet environments. Most people are familiar with the 50V limit by OSHA, but
that is for dry environments. In the UL standards for shock hazard, the
voltage limit is 30V. Now you know.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

You know, I can go down into my unfinished basement, through an unlocked
full height door.  The wiring in this space is fully Code compliant. And
yet, I can walk over and put my bare hand right onto a piece NM cable that
has 200A of 240 VAC running on it.

But God forbid I should be able to walk over to a PV array and put my hand
on a piece of double insulated PV wire with 10A of 30VDC running on it.

I don't get it.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do
you draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How
about bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice
if a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap)
method to cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and
meeting code requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local
interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Matt Lafferty]

I agree with Bill. Am I the only one who sees this as a 240 VAC application, 
not a 29.5 VDC application? The AC will be run in cable, not conduit, under the 
array. Code and common sense say we don't want unqualified people walking up to 
it and grabbing cables.

If it's a conventional ground rack, lattice is an affordable, reasonably 
attractive, and effective physical barrier for people and large animals.nbsp;

This method also doesn't create an attractive nesting place around the wires 
for squirrels and other knawing critters like an expanded metal backscreen 
would. And it doesn't affect module warranties.

$0.02001

Matt Lafferty

On Oct 21, 2010 2:58 PM, Bill Brooks lt;billbroo...@yahoo.comgt; wrote: 

Drake,



I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so

that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably

attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can

be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for

panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.



Bill.





-Original Message-

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake

Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:35 AM

To: RE-wrenches

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening



Hello Wrenches,



We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase 

inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output 

conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a 

raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course 

it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that 

would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?



The NEC Handbook comments Most PV modules do not have provisions for 

attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made not readily 

accessible by use of physical barriers such as wire screening.



I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the 

E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 

accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work 

that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence 

around the array?



Thanks,



Drake

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Mark Frye]

Bill,

I don't really want to call you out, but I also don't like you lording your
expertise over me, implying that I am stupid and I am going to get myself
killed someday, or worse yet kill someone else:

1 - 2008 NEC 334.15 NM Cable...Exposed Work(C) in unfinished basements.
What exactly changed in 1990 to prevent the scenario I mentioned?
2 - Which code are you referring to that includes wood lattice as part of a
minimum standard for guarding exposed electrical work?
3 - I think I understand the definition of readily accessible fairly well
and think there is a basis to argue that placing wood lattice around a
ground mount rack does not mean that the exposed wiring on the rack is no
longer in a readily accessible location. The use of the term remove
obstacles in the definition of readily accessible refers to obstacles that
prevent personnel from approaching the workspace around equipment. In this
sense the lattice may serve as a guard to the otherwise exposed wiring, but
it does not change the fact that wiring is in a readily accessible location
and must therefore, according to Code, be run in a raceway. Only placing a
fence around the entire rack (such that the workspace around the equipment
therein can no longer be reached quickly) eliminates the requirement that
the PV circuit conductor be run in raceway.

The Code is in place and we will all learn how to work with it. But I think
this issue points out the continuing growing pains of the industry when we
are still talking about on one hand the detailed requirements of a UL1741
inverter and on the other the use of garden supply material as requirements
for ensuring the safety of the system we build.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:55 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Mark,

The fact is you can't legally walk up and touch NM cable anymore. Whenever
your house was built, that may have been code compliant, but not since the
early 1990s has that been allowed. You may think a wooden lattice work is
insufficient protection, but the code disagrees with you as a minimum
standard. You can build all the chain link fences you want around your PV
systems. Not me. It is a waste of money. The code is addressing the issue of
readily accessible. Darwin awards are plentiful for people who want to get
themselves into trouble. We just have to make it a little more difficult for
unsuspecting kids using the underside of a PV array for a play fort. You
obviously haven't been to one of my code trainings in a long time. Maybe
it's time for a refresher.

The 30V limit has to do with the voltage at which serious shock can occur in
wet environments. Most people are familiar with the 50V limit by OSHA, but
that is for dry environments. In the UL standards for shock hazard, the
voltage limit is 30V. Now you know.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

You know, I can go down into my unfinished basement, through an unlocked
full height door.  The wiring in this space is fully Code compliant. And
yet, I can walk over and put my bare hand right onto a piece NM cable that
has 200A of 240 VAC running on it.

But God forbid I should be able to walk over to a PV array and put my hand
on a piece of double insulated PV wire with 10A of 30VDC running on it.

I don't get it.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do
you draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How
about bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice
if a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap)
method to cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and
meeting code requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local
interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground fault troubleshooting

[William Miller]

Colleagues:

I have been saying for some time that we need to rethink PV ground fault 
indicator systems.  The fundamentals of existing GFI systems is for the 
bond between the grounded-conductor and the  grounding-conductor to be 
opened upon a ground fault.  This bond is important for safety and it is 
ludicrous to open it at the time it is most needed.


There are patents awarded for systems to detect ground faults and then 
disconnect PV source circuits at the source.  This is the best idea I can 
think of at this time.  There are more patents to be had for those that can 
innovate in this area.  Until there are better systems on the market, 
regulators can not require better alternatives.


William Miller




At 01:04 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote:


Wrenches all,

I 100% second Bill B's comment Correct that... I 200% second it. It should 
be the law Don't begin to troubleshoot a faulted PV circuit without a 
reliable DC clamp meter.


The MOST DANGEROUS PV system is a wounded PV system. This includes danger 
to persons and property. Safely and efficiently troubleshooting a faulted 
PV circuit requires a voltmeter AND an ammeter. And PPE. And adequate 
knowledge and understanding of operational and non-operational 
characteristics of PV systems.


The simple reason for this is that, when one or more circuit conductors 
are faulted to a short condition, the voltage between the faulted elements 
is zero. Relying on just a voltage reading to determine whether or not to 
open a circuit under this condition will result in an arc. The amount of 
energy in that arc will depend on the amount of available sunlight and the 
amount of PV that is feeding into it. The amount of potential hazard will 
correspond to these factors as well.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount wire shielding

[Dave Palumbo]

Andy,

 

Contact me off list and I'll send a photo of what we do. This is something I
came up with to comply with Article 690.31. No guarantee your AHJ will like
it. I shared this on list last year, nothing really new. We don't drill into
module frames, but use the aluminum mounting rack to fasten plastic lattice
(white in color, available from Lowe's) cut to sizes needed. Inspectors I
have showed this to here in Vermont like it. 

 

Dave

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andy Tyson
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:12 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount wire shielding

 

Hi, I'm Looking for products or techniques that have been used as a raceway
for wire protection on the back of a ground mount array. The local AHJ is
not accepting a fence. We are required to cover or shield our USE module
wiring below 8'.  Side question: if we directly attach (self tappers) a
raceway to the module frame, does that void the module warranty? The modules
do not have J-boxes. 

 

Thanks,

Andy Tyson

Creative Energies 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground fault troubleshooting

[Bill Brooks]

Tom,

 

Your dc clamp-on meter would have saved you from removing a conductor that
had current on it. It is likely a lightning event caused the LA602 to do its
job-thus the cracked case. The dc clamp-on meter would have shown the
current flowing into the SOV and on to ground.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeBates
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:04 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] ground fault troubleshooting

 


hello Wrenches,
  We recently had an interesting (amusing?) experience that I thought might
be worth sharing and to get some feedback.
  I received a call from a fellow contractor that had a ground fault in his
PV system (Wattsun DA tracker, 24 Siemens (Shell?)110, 1 string, Sunny Boy
2500). The GF fuse in the Sunny Boy had blown. Another installer and I went
to his site to try to determine what the cause was. fortunately the Ground
Fault article by Paul Mync had just been in Solar Pro and we used this as a
template for troubleshooting the problem. To make a long story short, we
spent the better part of a day troubleshooting and still could not solve the
problem. What seemed to be happening was that we were getting a different
ground fault current based upon how many modules we had eliminated for the
string and it seemed to be approximately proportional. 
  A few days later our friend was going to run through the procdedure again
and take better notes. Since I was not there, the details may be a bit
sketchy, but basically are as follows. As he reconnected the
positive(ungrounded) home-run at the module j-box, the lightning arrestor
(Delta LA602DC), proceeded to go off like a Roman candle. As he pulled the
conductor off the terminal he got a nice arc between them. The obvious thing
to do was to eliminate the arrestor that solved the problem. Upon
further inspection, the arrestor had a crack in the case. Had the arrestor
had a slight fault (due to moisture) initially that lead to leakage current
based upon voltage applied and then finally fully-faulted?
  At least two lessons here:
1. When troubleshooting a GF, always eliminate any accessories from the
system.
2. When dealing with a faulted array never assume that opening the grounded
conductor will open the circuit. Just wondering...would a jumper form
grounded conductor to ground had prevented the acring he experienced?
thanks,
tom

Tom DeBates
Habi-Tek
524 Summit St.
Geneva,IL. 60134
630-262-8193
fax 630-262-1343

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount PV DC Disconnects and 690.13

[Dave Palumbo]

Wrenches,

 

For a ground mounted PV array I do NOT see where 690.13, 690.14 mandates a
DC disconnect at the array itself. My question is what do you do as best
practice for safety, or for service of inverter disconnect. I have been
using 600VDC SQ-D disconnects at our ground mounts and I'm wondering if it's
just plain overkill, or reasonable practice. 

 

 For example: 4kW Ground Mounted PV array with a Maximum Voltage of 567 DC.
DC wire run (buried pvc conduit) of 150 feet to the inverter with integral
DC disconnect. Inverter is located on outside wall of the house next to
utility service.

 

Also. With this system, if I use a DC disco at the array, can I safely use
the SQ-D HU361RB 30 Amp 3 pole 600VDC disconnect. The system is one string
of 20 Evergreen 205's, so 11.93Isc x 1.25 for a current of 14.94 Amps Max.
By using 2 poles in series can we use this disconnect safely?

 

Dave

 

David Palumbo, NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Independent Power LLC

Offices in Lamoille and the Champlain Valley

802.888.7194 

www.independentpowerllc.com 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount PV DC Disconnects and 690.13

[Dave Click]

I'd agree that 690.13/14 don't require a DC disconnect out there 
(notably 690.14(C)(5)). I'd still think it's a good idea for maintenance 
and safety so that you don't need to go 300 feet to turn off power and 
worry about lockout/tagout.


You would have to wire the two outer poles in series to use the 361RB 
disconnect per its UL listing. Per Schneider Electric's Self-Certified 
method you'd be fine breaking it just once (the 30A disconnect can take 
a 12.8A Isc).



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount PV DC Disconnects and 690.13
From: Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com
To: 'Wrench List' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: 2010/3/30 10:43


Wrenches,

For a ground mounted PV array I do NOT see where 690.13, 690.14 mandates
a DC disconnect at the array itself. My question is what do you do as
“best practice” for safety, or for service of inverter disconnect. I
have been using 600VDC SQ-D disconnects at our ground mounts and I’m
wondering if it’s just plain overkill, or reasonable practice.

For example: 4kW Ground Mounted PV array with a Maximum Voltage of 567
DC. DC wire run (buried pvc conduit) of 150 feet to the inverter with
integral DC disconnect. Inverter is located on outside wall of the house
next to utility service.

Also. With this system, if I use a DC disco at the array, can I safely
use the SQ-D HU361RB 30 Amp 3 pole 600VDC disconnect. The system is one
string of 20 Evergreen 205’s, so 11.93Isc x 1.25 for a current of 14.94
Amps Max. By using 2 poles in series can we use this disconnect safely?

Dave

David Palumbo, NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Independent Power LLC

Offices in Lamoille and the Champlain Valley

802.888.7194

www.independentpowerllc.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

[Larry Brown]

Keith,

We have had good success with TechnoMetalPosts for ground mounts
No excavation, no concrete work and almost no disturbance to the site
They have been running about $225-250 per post installed and a  
stamped engineering report for the local Building Department


Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:


Hi
I have a solar friend who is looking for some feedback on cost per  
footing for a small residential ground mount system in Northern CA.  
Do any of you have a cost estimate/assumption for each sonotube and  
concrete mix? What have been the general requirements for diameter  
and depth of the footings?
Does anyone have a concrete person they know up in the Santa Rosa  
area?

Thanks

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

[jay peltz]

Hi All,

Unistrut makes a telescoping set called get this  telestrut.
Pretty close to what you are discussing.

But does anybody know if Powerstrut makes the same?
My supplier only carries Powerstrut?

Thanks,

jay
On Jun 30, 2009, at 5:47 PM, R. Walters wrote:

I just looked at the Techno Metal Post website; looks like a great  
product for the PV biz. I wonder if they could be adapted for  
grounding systems?


Ray

On Jun 30, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Larry Brown wrote:


Keith,

We have had good success with TechnoMetalPosts for ground mounts
No excavation, no concrete work and almost no disturbance to the site
They have been running about $225-250 per post installed and a  
stamped engineering report for the local Building Department


Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:


Hi
I have a solar friend who is looking for some feedback on cost per  
footing for a small residential ground mount system in Northern  
CA. Do any of you have a cost estimate/assumption for each  
sonotube and concrete mix? What have been the general requirements  
for diameter and depth of the footings?
Does anyone have a concrete person they know up in the Santa Rosa  
area?

Thanks

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

[David Palumbo]

Hey Larry,

 

Have you worked with the Techno Metal Posts (TPM) for 6 SCH40 (orSCH80) top
of pole mounts?  I have heard of the TMP's being used for multi pole ground
mounts and my Vermont TMP franchisee wants to do some single pipe mast DPW
top of pole mounts with his TM Post.

 

Dave Palumbo

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

 

Keith,

 

We have had good success with TechnoMetalPosts for ground mounts

No excavation, no concrete work and almost no disturbance to the site

They have been running about $225-250 per post installed and a stamped
engineering report for the local Building Department

 

Larry Brown

Sun Mountain

 

On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:





Hi 
I have a solar friend who is looking for some feedback on cost per footing
for a small residential ground mount system in Northern CA. Do any of you
have a cost estimate/assumption for each sonotube and concrete mix? What
have been the general requirements for diameter and depth of the footings?
Does anyone have a concrete person they know up in the Santa Rosa area?
Thanks

Keith

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility

[Jeff Yago]

This issue came up here about a year ago and my rant then is the same as now. We need a solar module manufaturer to provide an "optional" conduit box on their module for those situations where we need to put array wiring in conduit for better protection, like ground mounted arrays. 

One size does not fit all, and this rush by the manufactueres for "plug and play" module installation and lower production cost is missing a big market share that is still there for those of uswhoreally need junction boxes on large wattage modules. It looks like the code is catching up and may force the issue on ground mounted arrays.

Jeff YagoNetscape. Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility

[William Miller]

http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html



At 02:24 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:

Wrenches,

In regards to 690.31 (A) which requires readily-accessible PV source and
output circuits above 30 V to be installed in a raceway, have any of you
come up with a method you think works well and is cost-effective?  I know
this was discussed a while back, I¹m wondering if anybody has done this a
couple times now and has found a system you like.  Anybody compare the cost
between fencing and enclosing the wiring on the backsides of the modules?
We bid on this particular system in early 2008 before we made the change in
our practices ­ 27 kW in two subarrays installed on ULA.

cheers,
Phil

Phil Schneider, system engineer
Creative Energies
www.CreativeEnergies.biz
307.332.3410 Lander, WY
208.354.3001 Victor, ID


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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility

[Phil Schneider]

William,

Your techniques look very clean and long lasting ­ thanks for the link.  Do
your inspectors consider the 4² aluminum wire guard as rendering the wiring
inaccessible?  Anybody else have feedback from their inspectors?  Thanks
again.

Phil

Phil Schneider, system engineer
Creative Energies
www.CreativeEnergies.biz
307.332.3410 Lander, WY
208.354.3001 Victor, ID




From: William Miller wrmil...@charter.net
Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:45:05 -0800
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility



http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html



 http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html
At 02:24 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
 Wrenches,
 
 In regards to 690.31 (A) which requires readily-accessible PV source and
 output circuits above 30 V to be installed in a raceway, have any of you
 come up with a method you think works well and is cost-effective?  I know
 this was discussed a while back, I¹m wondering if anybody has done this a
 couple times now and has found a system you like.  Anybody compare the cost
 between fencing and enclosing the wiring on the backsides of the modules?
 We bid on this particular system in early 2008 before we made the change in
 our practices ­ 27 kW in two subarrays installed on ULA.
 
 cheers,
 Phil
 
 Phil Schneider, system engineer
 Creative Energies
 www.CreativeEnergies.biz http://www.creativeenergies.biz/
 307.332.3410 Lander, WY
 208.354.3001 Victor, ID
 
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility

[William Miller]

Phil:

In which code version is the passage below found?  I have the 2002 and the 
2005 on CD Rom and it is in neither.  As such, local inspectors are not 
requiring any protection of accessible conductors.  As such, our wire guard 
is a voluntary upgrade and consequently, hard to justify.  Parents and 
grandparents are amenable in many cases, however.



William Miller


At 03:41 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:

William,

Your techniques look very clean and long lasting ­ thanks for the link.  Do
your inspectors consider the 4² aluminum wire guard as rendering the wiring
inaccessible?  Anybody else have feedback from their inspectors?  Thanks
again.

Phil

Phil Schneider, system engineer
Creative Energies
www.CreativeEnergies.biz
307.332.3410 Lander, WY
208.354.3001 Victor, ID




From: William Miller wrmil...@charter.net
Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:45:05 -0800
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility



http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html



 http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html
At 02:24 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
 Wrenches,

 In regards to 690.31 (A) which requires readily-accessible PV source and
 output circuits above 30 V to be installed in a raceway, have any of you
 come up with a method you think works well and is cost-effective?  I know
 this was discussed a while back, I¹m wondering if anybody has done this a
 couple times now and has found a system you like.  Anybody compare the cost
 between fencing and enclosing the wiring on the backsides of the modules?
 We bid on this particular system in early 2008 before we made the change in
 our practices ­ 27 kW in two subarrays installed on ULA.

 cheers,
 Phil

 Phil Schneider, system engineer
 Creative Energies
 www.CreativeEnergies.biz http://www.creativeenergies.biz/
 307.332.3410 Lander, WY
 208.354.3001 Victor, ID




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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 01/27/09 
07:26:00
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility

[Phil Schneider]

William and all,

It is new in the 2008 NEC version.

Phil

Phil Schneider, system engineer
Creative Energies
www.CreativeEnergies.biz
307.332.3410 Lander, WY
208.354.3001 Victor, ID




From: William Miller wrmil...@charter.net
Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:44:44 -0800
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility

Phil:

In which code version is the passage below found?  I have the 2002 and the
2005 on CD Rom and it is in neither.  As such, local inspectors are not
requiring any protection of accessible conductors.  As such, our wire guard
is a voluntary upgrade and consequently, hard to justify.  Parents and
grandparents are amenable in many cases, however.


William Miller


At 03:41 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
 William,
 
 Your techniques look very clean and long lasting ­ thanks for the link.  Do
 your inspectors consider the 4² aluminum wire guard as rendering the wiring
 inaccessible?  Anybody else have feedback from their inspectors?  Thanks
 again.
 
 Phil
 
 Phil Schneider, system engineer
 Creative Energies
 www.CreativeEnergies.biz http://www.creativeenergies.biz/
 307.332.3410 Lander, WY
 208.354.3001 Victor, ID
 
 
 
 
 From: William Miller wrmil...@charter.net
 Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:45:05 -0800
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ground mount wiring non-accessibility
 
 
 
 http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html
 
 
 
  http://mpandc.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html
 At 02:24 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
 Wrenches,
 
 In regards to 690.31 (A) which requires readily-accessible PV source and
 output circuits above 30 V to be installed in a raceway, have any of you
 come up with a method you think works well and is cost-effective?  I know
 this was discussed a while back, I¹m wondering if anybody has done this a
 couple times now and has found a system you like.  Anybody compare the cost
 between fencing and enclosing the wiring on the backsides of the modules?
 We bid on this particular system in early 2008 before we made the change in
 our practices ­ 27 kW in two subarrays installed on ULA.
 
 cheers,
 Phil
 
 Phil Schneider, system engineer
 Creative Energies
 www.CreativeEnergies.biz http://www.creativeenergies.biz/
 http://www.creativeenergies.biz/
 307.332.3410 Lander, WY
 208.354.3001 Victor, ID
 
 
 
 
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