Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
Alan Manuel Gloria: > So what function name do we use? c-read n-read t-read or > curly-infix-read neoteric-read sweet-read? Or provide both? I think curly-infix-read, neoteric-read, and sweet-read. That'd be clearer. I think c-expressions, n-expressions, and t-expressions are more abbreviations for use in writing or speaking. I think we should *not* provide both; providing multiple names can help backwards compatibility, but we're not there yet. --- David A. Wheeler -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 2:41 AM, David A. Wheeler wrote: > Kartik Agaram: >> I kept seeing 'neurotic' the first dozen times you said it :) Just noticed. >> No other issues. > > I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, or a good thing :-). > > You say "noticed" but have no issues, so I presume it's okay to use > "neoteric-expressions". > > Oh, and a hyphenation nit: we should say "curly-infix-expressions", not > "curly-infix expressions", so that its name is consistent with the others. > > More comments? We need to get the names nailed down quickly, since they'll > affect interface function names, and good names help. So what funciton name do we use? c-read n-read t-read or curly-infix-read neoteric-read sweet-read? Or provide both? > > --- David A. Wheeler > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Readable-discuss mailing list > Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
Kartik Agaram: > I kept seeing 'neurotic' the first dozen times you said it :) Just noticed. > No other issues. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, or a good thing :-). You say "noticed" but have no issues, so I presume it's okay to use "neoteric-expressions". Oh, and a hyphenation nit: we should say "curly-infix-expressions", not "curly-infix expressions", so that its name is consistent with the others. More comments? We need to get the names nailed down quickly, since they'll affect interface function names, and good names help. --- David A. Wheeler -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
I kept seeing 'neurotic' the first dozen times you said it :) Just noticed. No other issues. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
I haven't seen much discussion on the names; I thought there'd be endless emails on this. The main issue seems to be that some people don't like the name "modern". In addition, there were some confusions about the project name. So I'd like to make a proposed ruling on the naming & naming conventions, and see if there are objections. Name of whole project: Continues to be "Readable Lisp S-expressions", short name "readable". Name of mailing list: Continues to be "readable-discuss" Names of tiers: Keep the names "curly-infix expressions" and "sweet-expressions". Rename "modern-expressions" to "neoteric-expressions", and create standard abbreviations for the 3 names: c-expressions, n-expressions, and t-expressions respectively. Below is the justification. Comments? --- David A. Wheeler JUSTIFICATION: I don't like naming the notations *just* "c-expressions" or whatever. Just letters are arbitrary & are hard to remember. They also don't help people understand what their goals are. BUT abbreviations are useful (obviously!). "Curly-infix-expressions" is easily shortened to c-expressions, and sweet-expressions are shortened to "t-expressions", so let's go with that as standard abbreviations. Clearly some people don't like the name "modern", and the obvious abbreviation "M-expression" is taken. The term "function-expressions" abbreviates to "f-expression", which sounds bad & is taken. "prefix-expressions" shortens to p-expressions, which also sound bad. So let's change the name of "modern-expressions" to "neoteric-expressions". Neoteric has a similar meaning, and its abbreviation "n-expression" doesn't seem to have wide use in the Lisp world. I did find a use of the term "n-expressions" for Lisp: http://books.google.com/books?id=JmEXH9TllNcC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=%22n-expression%22+Lisp&source=bl&ots=H2Kw-i8e61&sig=IiWn_C6zKhRJN1DGerFPLCPL7KE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MioMUOxOsJDRAbu8iewD&ved=0CFsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22n-expression%22%20Lisp&f=false "Metamathematics, Machines, and Gödel's Proof" By N. Shankar, page 93. There it means a list composed solely of number and lists. I don't think this overlap is a problem. The term "neoteric" is a little obscure, but that can work to our advantage. It sounds exotic, which might lead them to listen instead of automatically rejecting it. Interestingly, the abbreviations go in alphabetical order. I think that's a nice plus, it helps people remember their order. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
> f-expressions sounds like f*n-expressions, which is not the association I'm > looking for :-). Also, fexprs are a real thing in lisp's history. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
Re: [Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
Alpheus Madsen: > It was my understanding that "modern-expressions" was the name of the rule > that transformed the standard s-expr (function arg1 arg2 arg3) > into the sweet-expression form function(arg1 arg2 arg3) Well, sort of. Modern expressions add that transformation rule, but the other direction. That is, a modern-expression of the form function(arg1 arg2 arg3) is transformed into the standard s-expression (function arg1 arg2 arg2). I think you knew that, and just wrote it backwards, no biggie. I'm clarifying this not for you, but for other people who are reading our conversation so that they won't get confused. Also, a nit: modern-expressions include several rules, including all the curly-infix rules. So the f(a b c) => (f a b c) is one of the key *additional* rules added by modern-expressions. > It is this naming convention that rubs me the wrong way; which is why I'd > call these "functional expressions" instead of "modern expressions". That's not a *bad* name, but: 1. s-expressions can also represent functions 2. f-expressions sounds like f*n-expressions, which is not the association I'm looking for :-). As I noted earlier, prefix-expressions becomes p-expressions which sounds like pee-expressions. I suppose affix-expressions would work, becoming a-expressions, but that's hard to say and, well, boring. Of the alternatives to "modern" I like "neoteric" the best. Not sure I'd want to switch, but that's the one I like best so far. Anyone have an alternative name for "modern"? > I would expect that the entire project could still be called > "sweet-expressions" Clarification: The full name of this project is currently the "Readable Lisp S-expressions Project"; I normally shorten this to the "readable" project. See http://readable.sourceforge.net/ or http://sourceforge.net/projects/readable/ Neither name is cast in stone, of course. If you think the project should have another name, please propose one! However, changing it to something without "readable" in it would be a big pain; I would want the URLs to match the project name, and that'd be unpleasant to change. So I'd want to hear a good name, with good justification. While "sweet-expressions" are the (current) name for the topmost tier, I think it's important to have tiers, *AND* I'm open to changing the name. But I'm not into change for change's sake; it needs to be plausibly better. > ... Indeed, I wouldn't refer to something as a "t-expression", any more than > I would something an "s-expression"--I'd sooner use the abbreviations > "t-expr" and "s-expr". Interesting. I use the term "s-expression" all the time. But no big deal. > ... Referring to "modern-expressions" as "m-exprs" would be problematic, > because this name is already spoken for Right. Agree, that is an issue. > Come to think of it, to what extent are we working on the problem that > McCarthy started with, to produce "m-exprs"? I'm inclined to think that > we're *sort-of* working towards that, but not really--after all, our goal is > to create a system of s-exprs, just with a different expressional syntax. I've read that work, yes. What we're doing is completely different. The problem was that he was trying to create a notation that was, at its heart, similar to Algol, Fortran, etc. At the time, no one understood that a Lispy language notation HAD to be homoiconic or general, so his notation was not. That this was a problem was not understood at all at the time, which makes sense, this was the early days of Lisp and the whole idea was new. The same kind of thing has happened again & again over decades. It's not obvious that a new notation for a Lisp-like language has to be homoiconic & not tied to the underlying semantic, so the same problems kept happening. But now that we know that these are some of the key advantages of traditional s-expressions, we can devise notations that preserve those advantages while being easier to read. --- David A. Wheeler -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
[Readable-discuss] Renaming the project or the notation tiers
Kartik Agaram > You know, I've never known how to pronounce s-expressions either.. > > ess expressions => tee expressions That's how I pronounce s-expressions, and how I'd pronounce t-expressions. But that doesn't make it canonical :-). I can see that having a simple "abbreviated" name is useful: * An obvious abbreviation for curly-infix expression is "c-expression". I wouldn't like to *eliminate* the curly-infix name, but as an abbreviation it's sensible. * I can live with "t-expression" as an abbreviation for sweeT-expression, especially, since "t" comes after "s" :-). A *problem* with "modern" is that the term "M-expression" already has a meaning - that is McCarthy's original (and discarded) programming notation. We could say moderN-expression abbreviates to "n-expression", but the "n" is not as pronounced as the "t" in "sweet" is. So I could see renaming modern-expressions in particular. But a new name is tricky, especially if there will be a *-expression abbreviation: - We could call it "function-expressions" since it permits traditional function notation. But that would abbreviate to "f-expression", which sounds way too close to "f*'en expression". - We could call it "prefix-expressions", but "p-expression" sounds exactly like "pee expression". Ugh. The term "new-expression" abbreviates nicely to "n-expression", but they're all new, and eventually they won't be. The term "neoteric-expression" abbreviates nicely to "n-expression" as well, and neoteric means "modern". It's also an obscure enough word that it can't possibly mean anything else :-). If we have to switch from "modern", then "neoteric" sounds like a start. The current project name is "readable". That's awkward to change, since I have URLs and such, but possible. Anyone have better ideas for names, or thoughts about the names? Now's the time. --- David A. Wheeler -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Readable-discuss mailing list Readable-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/readable-discuss
