[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi Behrang, BS> According to the messages sent to the list I learned BS> that REBOL is not OO. But it doesn't look to be BS> procedural or something else too. Isn't it an instance BS> of a new yet to be named paradigm?? RT calls it a "messaging" language. My favorite definition is that it's "designed to facilitate the semantic exchange of information between people and machines." It's a symbolic language, like Forth; it's a functional language, like Lisp; it's accessible to mere mortals, like Logo. You can use it in many ways: imperative, functional, declarative. I've had a number of "AHA!" moments (many of them thanks to the good people on this list)in my time with REBOL, as I'm sure you will. Realizing that "code is data, and data is code" is important. After I got there, it took a while before someone said "everything is data until it's evaluated" and another light went on. Other things like "words refer to values; they don't contain them" are important distinctions too. Learning when to use COPY on series! values, and the really important "local variable" behavior (someone must have a boilerplate example on hand for that one :). The number of "gotcha's" in REBOL is rally low (IMO), but you do have to keep an open mind sometimes and think about why it works the way it does. There's nearly always a good reason. Happy REBOLing! -- Gregg -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
Hi Behrang, BS> In the section about the tuples in quickstart it's not BS> stated that a tuple must at least have 3 elements. And they can have up to 10 elements. BS> So I said to myself "there should be some ambiguity BS> between decimals and tuples" although I was sure that BS> I'm wrong. Lexical space is very tight in REBOL, so once you get used to the rules that apply to the different datatypes you'll be in good shape. There aren't too many confusing things, but there are a few. One of the biggest things that you can do to confuse yourself (and others) is is coerce values to other types. Note, that I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or that you should never do it but, when you do, you can end up with values that don't match REBOL's lexical rules. e.g. >> x: to issue! "abc def" == #abc >> print mold x #abc >> last x == #"f" Here, coercing a string containing a space to an issue! works internally, but PRINT and the console output don't show it. -- Gregg -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Alternate GUI
Hi Matt, MM> ...if there is a way to use an alternate GUI designer, such as Visual MM> Basic or C++ and have it access some underlying REBOL functionality. I know MM> that using /view/pro you can access C++ classes and libraries, but what I MM> want to do is kindof backwards to that. Any input? No easy way at this point. I've seen the occasional request to have REBOL available as a DLL or static lib, which could be a cool way to do things, but I don't know if it makes sense for RT. Depending on your needs, you could write the UI in one tool and then use some IPC mechanism (e.g. sockets) to send data to a REBOL app for processing. In some cases that would work well. -- Gregg -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
Hi The Docs and Tutorials are awesome compared to many other languages/tools/compilers docs but are very informal. In the section about the tuples in quickstart it's not stated that a tuple must at least have 3 elements. So I said to myself "there should be some ambiguity between decimals and tuples" although I was sure that I'm wrong. Anyawys, thanks for the answers. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Oneline FTP Probelm
Hi Volker > Yes, the example is misleading. you need the full > filename for target. > write/binary > ftp://xxx:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs/behrangsa.png > read/binary %behrangsa.png > should work. > and if behind firewall system/schemes/ftp/passive: > true Thanks. It worked. Behrang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
It is easy to find somethings out from the console: type? 1.1 type? 1.1.2 If it is an object then you can probe it to find out information: a: make object! [b: "test" c: 12 d: 1.87] probe a probe a/d type? a/d -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
You were right Ashley, REBOL needs at least 3 components. I never tried before but it seemed to be so natural ... in fact REBOL fooled me this time but I will remember the lesson Next time I will try before submitting my answer! Regards, Gerard - Original Message - From: "Ashley Trüter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:12 PM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls > > > Is, for example, 1.1 a tuple or a decimal? > > Decimal, a tuple must have at least three components. Perhaps pair! is > what you want? ;) > > > Regards, > > Ashley > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
Hi again, Without knowing much I think 1.1 is a decimal but nevertheless it can be used for both datatypes. However you'll have to use the 'to-tuple word to ask REBOL to convert the decimal to the second one as is : my-tuple: to-tuple 1.1 print type? my-tuple May be others can help better, Gerard - Original Message - From: "Behrang Saeedzadeh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: [REBOL] Tuples versus Deciamls > > Hi > > Is, for example, 1.1 a tuple or a decimal? > > Thanks. > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Oneline FTP Probelm
Hi, I would first try putting a filename after the Folder name or put a terminating / to specify REBOL wwwdocs is a folder name (by convention I think REBOL is waiting for a / after a folder name) HTH, Gerard - Original Message - From: "Behrang Saeedzadeh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:21 PM Subject: [REBOL] Oneline FTP Probelm > > Hi > > In the oneliners section I saw the following code > snippet for transferring a file via ftp protocol: > > write/binary ftp://user:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > read/binary %file > > I have a file called behrangsa.png (I have copied it > to the view directory) and I want to send it to the > machine where my site is hosted on it but I get the > following error message: > > User Error: Server error: tcp 553 Can't open that > file: Is a directory > ** Near: write/binary > ftp://xxx:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs read/binary > %behrangsa.png > > (I want to send the file to the wwwdocs folder as it's > mapped to the www subdomain) > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in advance, > Behrang S. > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Oneline FTP Probelm
Behrang S. wrote: > In the oneliners section I saw the following code snippet for transferring a file via ftp protocol: > > write/binary ftp://user:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > read/binary %file > > I have a file called behrangsa.png (I have copied it to the view directory) and I want to send it to the machine where my site is hosted on it but I get the following error message: > > User Error: Server error: tcp 553 Can't open that file: Is a directory > ** Near: write/binary > ftp://xxx:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs read/binary %behrangsa.png > > (I want to send the file to the wwwdocs folder as it's mapped to the www subdomain) Try this: write/binary ftp://user:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs/behrangsa.png read/binary %behrangsa.png -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Cookbook submissions idea
"Petr Krenzelok" wrote: > sorry to snip your whole talk about Vanilla. While Vanilla or Wiki, > whatever may be nice design to study, I think you overestimate its > usefullness for Rebol. I am sorry to very strongly back-up Robert's pov, > but I can bet that if free version of IOS like sync mechanism would > exist, much cooler scenarios could be created - with rebol, for rebol - Hey no problem Petr. Thanks I really welcome different perspectives. I am sure much cooler scenarios could be created IF..if ..if ..if you're right. And believe me I have plenty of my own big dreams for years about multi-user messaging applications. It's what led me to Rebol :-) The web is extremely useful and I don't think it is going away. Interoperability is good. There is [hopefully] gainful employment to be had. I am also a big fan for years of desktop peer-peer apps which co-habit seamlessly with the web and each other. For example, I tried to do that with Zope in an EU-funded project 5 years ago. My design had a single download/install .exe which included Zope so that we could multi-user collaboration for off-line and online access. Many end-users only had occasional dial-up modem access. What is nice is that Zope bundles several servers FTP, WebDav, http, and can be remotely controlled by XML-RPC also. The project was for inter-modal transportation and needed to interface shippers, agents, truckers in several countries and juggling shifting calendars against itinerary and capacity.User interface was html + flash, with extra shipping database in BerkeleyDB wrapped as Zope product. Good ideas but too steep learning curve, too soon for the technologies used. Not enough other Python/Zope/Flash people in the project. So one painful lesson for me was that if you use a rare/new technology/paradigm you have to cover yourself and make sure it interfaces well with other mainstream systems as much as possible, and/or is completely transparent. Anyway I just like Vanilla. And after expecially Zope I adore its simplicity, though cannot compare them. I see personally see quite a bit of untapped potential in its design. I have some ideas about websites which I want to explore. And since Vanilla is written in Rebol, I can hope that someday Vanilla or something like it will also talk more with other cool rebol developments. Like Easy-Vid :-) I wish oh wish that there was a better solution than the feeble cgi dependency which vanilla has now. I wish there were a mega cool rebol universal server framework --- http, ftp, rebol, XMPP[jabber], plugin-architecture modular, cross-platform,fast install, etc. But there are simply too few experienced rebol programmers out there. You are all very talented and dedicated, but only so many hours in all our lifetimes. And few eyes yet to support documentation, testing, fixes, all that must go into building the momentum which the best openSource projects enjoy. So yes it's very hard to make progress. But we each are working on areas we feel motivated to. I am not a very good coder. I wish I was better and faster. So much I want to build. One reason I like Vanilla is that it is quite easy for me to extend. There is a framework I mostly understand now. Hacking Vanilla has helped me learn rebol a little and provided motivation and satisfaction. I don't know how long before I move on from thinking about Vanilla honestly. Speed and scalibility worry me. If I was smart I'd just use some Python or learn PHP and pick a tool that already everything and play with them. But trouble is I am hooked on Rebol/Vanilla. If I don't get some very so often I get the blues.. Do you know a doctor who can help me? And besides Gerard was looking for a platform/site to host beginner rebol help. One of the big problems still is that rebol is badly off the google radar. That's pretty bad for beginners. Rebol.org is great progress though. btw Google for some reasons seems to like Vanilla :-) - Jason -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
Behrang wrote: > Is, for example, 1.1 a tuple or a decimal? Let's ask Rebol: >> type? 1.1 == decimal! According to Rebol, 1.1 is a decimal value. -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Temporal data [was is REBOL OO]
Hi Sunanda, you wrote this : == > The other thing that is vital with this sort of application is not just > availability checking (have we got what they've asked for?) but also the automatic > offering of alternatives. > > In your example, the system should automatically offer these sorts of > alternatives (assuming they are available) and sequence them in a blend of the > customer's priorities (wednesdays are nice, but evenings are essential) and the > company's yield management goals (we gotta take some afternoon bookings soon!) > -- 11 consecutive weds plus 1 after a gap over Thanksgiving weekend. > -- 12 consecutive thursdays starting 3 weeks after their desired date > -- 10 consecutive wednesdays late afternoons > -- 6 weeks here and 6 weeks at our sister site ten blocks away. > I'm glad someone here on the ML has already had sufficient experience in th epast with that kind of reservation system so that he is able to complete what was coming before I had to complete myself the example. In fact you are absolutely right when you say that the next step is to offer some alternatives to the customer that are based upon his own priorities (which are generally not known before the CALL had been placed to the clerk. This is exactly what the reality is for this system too. Sometime a client prefer to keep one tuesday p.m. while on another time he will prefer to advance all the reservations one hour sooner or he will prefer to move all wednesdays for thursdays but keep them at 8 p.m. It's similar in all points to what you exposed above and this is why I really thiunk that the humain brain is really enjoying many advantages over a computer system when it comes to express and analyse in real-time what these constraints are. a simple exchange with the clerk by phone and the 2 can agree with some proposed adjustment without having to bother with keyboarding the alternatives or priorities. And the best part is no more training costs and delays for such a manual system - everybody has used some pencil and paper in the past. But I would have liked to try it even though if it is not manageable at all - for fun and learning. > If that doesn't scare you off, then I do have in my head a design for such a > system (though not so high performance) using REBOL and (if we have to -- but > I'd rather not) a standard SQL database for the raw user data. It's been on > the backburner for the past year or so, as the people who want it are nothing > like ready. There is a chance it might be a goer later this year. > > But I'm still fairly agnostic about whether REBOL is a great tool for this. > I'm interested to look at this beast if I really get an eye on it but it will also take much time before I would be ready to analyse the way it is really functioning I think. Nevertheless my needs will never be those of the Flights reservation system since a skating is opened only between 6:00 and 23:59 at one hour interval and there is only very few other apps running on this computer at a given time - the most demanding being Excel or Word during tests and after it would be ported on a dedicated computer for enabling this job. At least it is what that was planned until the manager decided that the proposed system would not scale either ;-) and kept the paper and pencil. He simply posts his entries in a deferred manner into the agenda after the verbal exchange took place with his client. And it will be so until I can prove him that is not the best way to do. Never I will try to prove anything like that because I know the real "complexity" inherent with the fact that this task must be accomplished in real-time even during the exchange with the customer and this is not what the computer is good for at this moment. I really appreciate your comment and if you feel like you could let me see the state of your work I would be grateful for too. But I will not either be furious against you if you don't because I know what sum of work it represents. In all cases, Thank you for listening and posting. Regards, Gerard -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Oneline FTP Probelm
Am Dienstag 13 Januar 2004 01:21 schrieb Behrang Saeedzadeh: > Hi > > In the oneliners section I saw the following code > snippet for transferring a file via ftp protocol: > > write/binary ftp://user:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > read/binary %file > > I have a file called behrangsa.png (I have copied it > to the view directory) and I want to send it to the > machine where my site is hosted on it but I get the > following error message: > > User Error: Server error: tcp 553 Can't open that > file: Is a directory > ** Near: write/binary > ftp://xxx:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs read/binary > %behrangsa.png > > (I want to send the file to the wwwdocs folder as it's > mapped to the www subdomain) > > Any ideas? Yes, the example is misleading. you need the full filename for target. write/binary ftp://xxx:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs/behrangsa.png read/binary %behrangsa.png should work. and if behind firewall system/schemes/ftp/passive: true > Thanks in advance, > Behrang S. > -Volker -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Tuples versus Deciamls
> Is, for example, 1.1 a tuple or a decimal? Decimal, a tuple must have at least three components. Perhaps pair! is what you want? ;) Regards, Ashley -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Tuples versus Deciamls
Hi Is, for example, 1.1 a tuple or a decimal? Thanks. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi > JC> ...whether it behaves differently or if its > sytnax is consistent > JC> or not with their expectations and the parent > language. > > People don't have to know that a dialect has a > "parent language". > What's important is that all the similarities you > *can* leverage with > embedded languages reduce the "impedance mistmatch" > for users and > makes it more accessible. The less there is to > learn, the better, in > most cases. I totally agree with that. Learning a new dialect (syntax) is not harder than learning a new API, at least for experienced programmers who have worked at least with 3+ languages in real world scenarios. Having worked with Java and C++ alot I didn't feel any difficulties in learning Jython, (and REBOL of course ;) According to the messages sent to the list I learned that REBOL is not OO. But it doesn't look to be procedural or something else too. Isn't it an instance of a new yet to be named paradigm?? Behrang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Oneline FTP Probelm
Hi In the oneliners section I saw the following code snippet for transferring a file via ftp protocol: write/binary ftp://user:[EMAIL PROTECTED] read/binary %file I have a file called behrangsa.png (I have copied it to the view directory) and I want to send it to the machine where my site is hosted on it but I get the following error message: User Error: Server error: tcp 553 Can't open that file: Is a directory ** Near: write/binary ftp://xxx:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/wwwdocs read/binary %behrangsa.png (I want to send the file to the wwwdocs folder as it's mapped to the www subdomain) Any ideas? Thanks in advance, Behrang S. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Cookbook submissions idea
Jason Cunliffe wrote: >Hi Gerard > > > >>I didn't find any info about this REBOLDOC project on Robert's website >> >> >(Saw an > > >>OpenDOC entry but nothing else) >> >> > >...perhaps this explains >http://www.rebol.net/list/list-msgs/30437.html > >Regarding Vanilla. First, good idea to post Vanilla questions to the >dedicated >list "vanilla-pudding". > > > sorry to snip your whole talk about Vanilla. While Vanilla or Wiki, whatever may be nice design to study, I think you overestimate its usefullness for Rebol. I am sorry to very strongly back-up Robert's pov, but I can bet that if free version of IOS like sync mechanism would exist, much cooler scenarios could be created - with rebol, for rebol - entire network could grow. Don't get me wrong - how is it usefull to study and deploy non rebol mechanism to document and learn what is rebol capable of? Of course web-interface is still important nowadays but when I hear talk about Vanilla to Vanilla communication and similar kind of stuff, you ppl are working agains basic idea of rebol then, no? - messaging ... I want rebol way of messaging, not some http, cgi kludges - what is new about that? For what do we want to use rebol then if not for rebol native messaging in the first place? I am far from being good coder to do it myself, but I found things like Rugby way superior to popular things like XML-RPC. What is so innovative about it? Its wide popularity? It is a pity Doc did not finish multiprotocol engine - Uniserve, - run-time pluggable multi-protocol architecture. Wouldn't it be better to communicate to irc, jabber, rebol native way of course, etc.?We have Gabriele, Doc, Romano, Maarten, Gregg cool rebol networking protocols hackers here and I wonder why our community was not able to come up with something rebol related. Do we really lack innovation? -pekr- >hope this makes sense >- Jason > > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Monday, January 12, 2004, 2:35:51 PM, Romano wrote: >> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is REBOL Object Oriented? > Yes, like Self: > http://research.sun.com/self/language.html Or maybe rather not like Self as REBOL misses Self's crucial capability for inheritance (Self's parent slots). -- Best regards, Andreas -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Alternate GUI
Matt wrote: > I want to know is, because REBOL is so good at what it does (internet communication, encryption, database access, etc.) but the GUI of /view is lacking, if there is a way to use an alternate GUI designer, such as Visual Basic or C++ and have it access some underlying REBOL functionality. I'm using Rebol and a dialect to generate C# classes (.cs files) then compiling the C# to form a Windows program. Would something like that help? -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Cookbook submissions idea
Hi Gerard > I didn't find any info about this REBOLDOC project on Robert's website (Saw an > OpenDOC entry but nothing else) ...perhaps this explains http://www.rebol.net/list/list-msgs/30437.html Regarding Vanilla. First, good idea to post Vanilla questions to the dedicated list "vanilla-pudding". Little traffic, but makes Vanilla study easier for oneself and for others who come behind because they don't have to filter out Vanilla posts from zillions of other rebol ones. I think everyone who knows Vanilla from hands-on experience subscribes [all ten of them] Link for vanilla-pudding are here http://www.vanillasite.at/space/documentation > In this case I would prefer to install a plain wiki I got many years ago that worked > well here locally the first time I tried to install it - remember it was not the same at all > with Vanilla. There certainly other wikis one can use. All are probably more fully documented and have larger user communities. But since this project is about REBOL and about learning it, may be best to make small initial sacrifice of convenience, and use a rebol-based tool. Once Vanilla is installed and you start to understand its design, you'll appreciate how cool it is , how much fun it is to modify, and at times also how frustrating it can be there are not more people using and developing it [deja-vu?]. So deciding to using it is a symbiotic strategy -- helping rebolers and at same time helping vanilla grow though that.. > However if someone desires to host me for this project and give me some access > to his own Vanilla operated site, I'll be glad to accept his invitation. > What do you think about ? I am willing to host a fresh vanilla-site on one of my dreamhost.com domains and give you full access you'd need. It is not the fastest because I don't have fast-cgi running nor a dedicated server. Can't justify that server cost yet. > Don't forget that the main points here are simplicity, visibility and sharing of ideas > and code. And its about learning REBOL right? Best way to learn rebol is to use it... Vanilla just needs more hands and eyes on it. A very important task is documenting it from developer perspective. Vanilla is easy to use. Clear documentation may almost be the best reason to do this project together using it, because it will naturally encourage us to create something very valuable which the community lacks. I n addition to virtues, I am enthusiastic about Vanilla also because it is one the most sigfnicant Application written in Rebol that I know and could be a nice poster child for Rebol web apps, even though it is just a cgi application at this point. It would not be hard to create many useful non-cgi rebol tools for shell and /View designed to work with Vanilla in the background. File uploading, peer-peer, site, updating and transfer, site-site features, remote site management. One dream is to build in a publish-to-Vanilla button for easy-vid. It useful to look at Dave Winer's Manila and Radio Userland products when considering full application possible with Vanilla I have a big to-do list of projects for extending Vanilla. Most focus on improving its capabilities for collaborative art and educational uses, with better implicit support for graphics, dynamic flash, auto-upload, sharing, permission, groups and access management. Almost all involve writing tool which exploit custom snip metadata. I 'd also like move vanilla's code to Leo to help documentation and to manage and merge developments, but simple basic documentation comes first. A few very simple things I have done already: custom metadata, interactive calendar, template selector. - Adapted the default calendar in Vanilla. For example see http://tranzilla.net/vanilla.r?selector=display&snip=2003 Uses CSS now. I like the year display because it is a nice overview and edit interface in one. - Added better templating The default 'selectors' are 'display', 'edit' etc. I added one called 'display-template' which let's one define the template skin no the fly via the url. To see what I talking about, click the snip=2003 url above, then try the various links in at-a-glance - - DAY, WEEK, MONTH, YEAR and look at the url they produce Then click the 2003 and you'll see it is set to define its own template http://tranzilla.net/vanilla.r?selector=display-template&template=tiny-template&snip=2003&template=vanilla-template The first param call: "template=tiny-template" is the which default I set display-template to use and display But the second template call overrides the first so template=vanilla-template If you change that to vanilla-template2, vanilla-template3, vanilla-template5 you'll se how easy it is to change the entire screen. My demo could; be much better because I've not done anything graphically interesting yet with them. Vanilla templates are actually an editable vanilla 'snip' or element. And they can dictate what components an functions will be on the page and also define CSS file
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Jason wrote: > Generally dialects and local uses of parse seem to emerge from some direct need. Some job grows really repetitious or lengthy. So a dialect can help simplify the code keep focus to the task at hand. I agree. I had the need to generate lots of HTML, and I couldn't bear the thought of writing it by hand, and all the tools still did things in a brain-dead manner. So I went smarter and created my ML dialect, which I've described in my earlier post. Then I discovered how to use XML for other things and extended the use of ML to WML and XML, so allowing me to do more. Similarly for my C# code. I write several C# classes and noted that for each class I had to write several support classes! All these classes were intensely boring to write and it was very easy to make a small mistake or three and have lots of defects when the programs were compiled. I wrote my C# classes Rebol dialect to automatically generate these support classes and even the originating class! So now, I don't get errors when I need to change a class or it's supporting classes. I just change the dialect code and all classes are the same in their own way as it were. > Beyond that is the idea of hidden smarts, where they can embed logic and contextual behavior hiding the guts from the casual use. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LittleLanguage Quote: "...the realization that it is easier to implement a task-specific language optimized for that task than it is to implement a general-purpose language optimized for all possible uses." -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Temporal data [was is REBOL OO]
HI Gerard, > Just to give you an idea of the involved difficulties, imagine > a customer that phones at the arena and want to know if > he can take a reservation one time each week for the next > 12 weeks preferably during the wednesday evenings. > This should not be of a real problem if the 12 wednesdays are free. > The problem begins when some of the weeks are not free and the > clerk must go back and forth interrogating the system to see > where it will fit another evening to accomodate the client for all of > his needs - IN REAL TIME PLEASE - the client is waiting at > the other end of the phone. > I know how real and good is the efficiency of the paper method in such a case > but I always dreamed of some tool to explore with a > computer. I think REBOL could be this tool - if we could get some way to > connect it to some external way to enter data like a touch > screen can do instead of a mouse and a keyboard. In fact the three should > intermixed in this app. I once knew someone who was charged a small fortune for a computer system to do precisely that. Absolutely crazy. Nothing could beat their two-stage wall chart: pencilled in for provisional bookings, inked in when confirmed. On the other hand, it doesn't scale well. I've worked on realtime reservations systems. Before airlines had computers, they had large warehouses full of telephone order takers (a 1950s call center). Flight details were marked on blackboards around the walls. Runners (the younger kids) ran back and forth updating the boards as flight details (e.g. seating capacity) changed. At one point, the airlines were the binocular manufacturer's biggest customers. (You are sitting at a phone at one end of a warehouse. How else do you read a blackboard at the far end?) The sort of data structures you need for handling the sale of time (as opposed to material goods) are fairly non-intuitive if you've never worked in that area. Read up on "temporal databases" if you want an insight into a whole new world, and possibly a few headaches. The other thing that is vital with this sort of application is not just availability checking (have we got what they've asked for?) but also the automatic offering of alternatives. In your example, the system should automatically offer these sorts of alternatives (assuming they are available) and sequence them in a blend of the customer's priorities (wednesdays are nice, but evenings are essential) and the company's yield management goals (we gotta take some afternoon bookings soon!) -- 11 consecutive weds plus 1 after a gap over Thanksgiving weekend. -- 12 consecutive thursdays starting 3 weeks after their desired date -- 10 consecutive wednesdays late afternoons -- 6 weeks here and 6 weeks at our sister site ten blocks away. To rummage a database realtime for those sorts of alternatives can be very processor heavy. Example, suppose I wanted any 5 consecutive slots, any time of day, in the six months, ordered by lowest booking price, if I was to pay by next Tuesday -- remember your pricing may vary by the week (xmas is higher) and you may have specials if I book by a given date). At a quick glance, that looks like you have to run through almost every combination of slots that are available, and price them. Getting performance for something like that is a real pig. That's why real airlines (until perhaps very recently) don't use real databases. No one's got time for record locking and transaction rollback features and stuff like that. Not when you want to do 200 vague queries like the one above per a second across a multi-terabyte database that is being simultaneously bulk loaded with next year's flight inventory. If that doesn't scare you off, then I do have in my head a design for such a system (though not so high performance) using REBOL and (if we have to -- but I'd rather not) a standard SQL database for the raw user data. It's been on the backburner for the past year or so, as the people who want it are nothing like ready. There is a chance it might be a goer later this year. But I'm still fairly agnostic about whether REBOL is a great tool for this. Sunanda. -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
> JC> Designing Rebol dialects is not easy. > > Agreed 100%. > > Good post. Every time dialects come up this way, it makes me think, and re-think, how I want to explain them to people, why I think they're important, etc. So, thanks! I totally agree. I keep revising my dialects to better fit the domain and to be easier to use. For example in my earliest version of ML dialect, I started off by using functions and their arguments, like this for generating a list of items: List: func [Type [word!] Items [block!]] [...] I discovered that this had the problem of having to be changed for each variety of HTML, WML and XML, plus it grew way too hard to maintain. It was also harder to learn than standard HTML, WML or XML, which was the reverse of what I wanted! Then I discovered how to use words themselves as the name part of tags, and using block! values to group content, along with using 'parse on block values. I expanded the words to use path! values to generate tags and 'compose/deep to insert outside values. My most version of ML which uses "<" and ">" matches better the domain of XML and allows very complex tags with name spaces like: foo:bar for each tag attribute. Rebol unfortunately can't handle two namespace attributes in a path value like: >> X: 'x/foo:bar/ding:dong == x/foo:bar/ding:dong >> LENGTH? x == 2 >> x/2 == foo:bar/ding:dong With "<" and ">" to group the tag, ML can be like this: >> random/seed now >> RandomID: random 1234 == 859 >> From_Address: "Andrew's Example" == "Andrew's Example" >> print ML compose/deep [ [< stream:stream [xmlns:stream http://etherx.jabber.org/streams [id (RandomID) [xmlns jabber:client [from (From_Address) [> [ ["My content goes here! " ["plus any other content!" [] [] http://etherx.jabber.org/streams"; id="859" xmlns="jabber:client" from="Andrew's Example">My content goes here! plus any other content! -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Alternate GUI
This is sort of a late addendum to the post about REBOL being behind. What I want to know is, because REBOL is so good at what it does (internet communication, encryption, database access, etc.) but the GUI of /view is lacking, if there is a way to use an alternate GUI designer, such as Visual Basic or C++ and have it access some underlying REBOL functionality. I know that using /view/pro you can access C++ classes and libraries, but what I want to do is kindof backwards to that. Any input? _ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi Gerard > http://www.vydra.net/esl/paper/ Thanks I'll look into it. > May be someone has yet to write the ultimate book that will permit every programmer that wants to do some steps in this way to be > able to do so ... by itself - as easily as it can be done ! There is no 'ultimate' - just keep learning keep growing keep changing.. But a high level book which discussed dialects would be a very interstnig thing. There are maybe some good Phd. thesis papers on the subject. > generally lost since they are not of general interest and not much useful in a planned learning. This is what is missing. The Zine > was the part that permitted every newcomer to study some material of this kind - planned for more or less advanced stuff. Yeah I like Zine very much. If Rebol population grows then I expect rebol blogs to appear just as they have for Flash. It fills in nice learning space bewteen mailing lists and elsewhere. That's one reason I think Vanilla is a natural fit for beginner. It icombines wiki wiht blog. And beacuase it in rebol very motivating to learn hands-on as needs emerge. In fact virtually all my Rebol experience is based on hacking aroudn Vanilla. Nothing sophisticated compared to people here, but satisfying useful and motivating. I owe you a post about Vanilla from discussion many days back. Will try to complete it this evening. > For example I find it so annoying to me to completely rewrite my complete paths (switching the / for the \ plus adding the " at both > ends and stripping the : after the Drive name) each time I have to type some copied file name and path from my Windows Explorer to > the console prompt - I mnow ther must exist some script to help somewhere but this could be useful to have defined a dialect for > managing files any time it would be needed to > express for example the listing of the files contained in "E:/DOCUMENTS/Gerard/credit card Orders/Alibris/" Well yeah it is annoying. Rebol and Python both have their own consistent intenal syntax. But it strikes me they shoul dbe smart enough to just check for the path syntax of the platform being used and then accept and convert to the internal. . I imagine such functions have been written many times over already by people. > Just to give you an idea of the involved difficulties, imagine a customer that phones at the arena and want to know if he can take a > reservation one time each week for the next 12 weeks preferably during the wednesday evenings. > This should not be of a real problem if the 12 wednesdays are free. The problem begins when some of the weeks are not free and the > clerk must go back and forth interrogating the system to see where it will fit another evening to accomodate the client for all of > his needs - IN REAL TIME PLEASE - the client is waiting at the other end of the phone. That's the kind of problem interactive calendars are great for. As it happens I've just been working on this problem using Flash for online house rental bookings. And its one of the reasons I am big fan of Jabber because its presence mechanism makes it ideal transport for connecting collaborative apps like this. I want the user interface elements to be both control and display devices, capable of changing state when send or receive events. Of course Rebol/View can be good for that too. Personally I just find Flash is much more sophisticated and fun for that kind of gui development. I don't know how far the calendar component of IOS went. Perhaps it has what you want already in it ? Generally dialects and local uses of parse seem to emerge from some direct need. Some job grows really repetitious or lengthy. So a dialect can help simplify the code keep focus to the task at hand. Beyond that is the idea of hidden smarts, where they can embed logic and contextual behavior hiding the guts from the casual use. Extreme example was already provided: Computer do [what I want] Life do [what I need] not [what I want] etc.. If I understand correctly Rebol dialects are a *much* kinder version of what XSLT does. - Jason -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi Jason, After your Jabber ref. I went to their main site and will probably try it soon just to see how it works for real exchanging. I also got another ref. that could be of some interest to you about extensible scripting languages (ESL) http://www.vydra.net/esl/paper/ . Found this one from the Trevor link about the REBOL-UNIT.R script which is broken. After investigating a bit around the broken link I found this paper that describes some dialect examples and I think it would be interesting for some of us as a starting point to experiment and document parse. What do you think about ? Additionally I could not resist to buy the book David referred to in his paper which was written in 2001 by Steven John Metsker, Building Parsers With Java. I got it used for 15 $ USD. As Volker and Gregg said I don't think too that it is trivial to design domain specific languages and grammars that accompany them (I never learned formally in school to do so and this is one of the most complex concepts I read about until now) even if we have some tools like parse to help cope with. I don't think either that it is what you said but nevertheless I can't say I already tamed these animals even with a lot of books to refer to. I am not much mathematically inclined either and that can explain a bit the many difficulties I got in the past with many of the books I have read until now. May be someone has yet to write the ultimate book that will permit every programmer that wants to do some steps in this way to be able to do so ... by itself - as easily as it can be done ! I think that as REBOL learners we could begin some common experiment around parse and the design of some small specific dialects for illustrative purpose and may be for some common useful use too - one for automatically completing file names (like some well known tools under DOS did it some time ago...) for use under Windows would be of some help to me. This could be done with the help of some advanced level REBOLer(s) that could interact (or even drive the group in some way by suggesting some plan, giving hints or even explaining some obscure or difficult concepts that must be learned to really understand the whole) with the learning members exchanging on IOS or AltMe or even on a Forum. The important think to remember is that what will be done should be kept for archiving and later retrieval. And later (or sooner) this could be done about any concept suggested by someone on the ML (or by the REBOL learning classes - if some entity existed). It might be done this way : Someone decides to start with any idea submitted to the cookbook or the ML and starts some exchange and experiment about this theme - starting with some DESIGN PHASE (Generally just questions to guide about where to start with and why to do it - traditionnaly called a DATA analysis followed by some ALGORITHM design) what could be. The ML actually plays much of this role but this not really the place to do so for everything that is submitted in - even if it is a lot useful to everybody and it must continue in some way. The problem is that after some thread is completed, the results are generally lost since they are not of general interest and not much useful in a planned learning. This is what is missing. The Zine was the part that permitted every newcomer to study some material of this kind - planned for more or less advanced stuff. Why is it no more in use then ? I think I can answer to this by myself since I know the sum of voluntary this represents for each submitter - and it must be a talented one since it must be understandable by the readers - and the reviewer work is not to be underestimated too. In fact it is an enourmous task that must be shared between many volunteers and done on a pleasure basis. I think it is time to raise it again in some form or in another. As a starting point - since we were talking about dialects and parsing - read the following : For example I find it so annoying to me to completely rewrite my complete paths (switching the / for the \ plus adding the " at both ends and stripping the : after the Drive name) each time I have to type some copied file name and path from my Windows Explorer to the console prompt - I mnow ther must exist some script to help somewhere but this could be useful to have defined a dialect for managing files any time it would be needed to express for example the listing of the files contained in "E:/DOCUMENTS/Gerard/credit card Orders/Alibris/" and limiting those to only the ones created during the month of february of the current year (or before or after some date or between 2 dates) with a command such : "my-list-dir named-dir -mm 2004-02" . For sure I implicitly sent the named path-file into a named-dir word. We could elaborate more and add many facets as to how to specify the order of the listing and the nature of the displa
[REBOL] Re: ML for Jabber ?
Jason wrote: > Where to get ML and what do I need to do know to get started to using it? I've sent a reply to you directly, containing all you need, along with a copy for Gerard. -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Hi Volker and Gabriele,
for your help.
I'll try to experiment with that too in my own context !
Regards,
Gerard
> VN> How about [ call/output "rebol --cgi script.r" ] ? should write to output?
>
> Hmm, -c does not work in a MS-DOS window, but does with
> CALL/OUTPUT. That's good to know. :-)
>
> >> call/output {rebol.exe -c --do "print 'hello quit"} s: ""
> == 0
> >> print s
> hello
>
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[REBOL] Re: can't connect to AltME ....
It's ok here Carlos Em Dom 11 Jan 2004 15:57, you wrote: > Hi, > > last two days I am not able to connect to AltME properly. It worked > yesterday in the evening, but is not working whole day today once again. > Anyone else got problems connecting to AltME? > > thanks, > -pekr- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi Joel, Joel wrote: ... > Answering this modified question would require addressing some > of the following issues: > > 1) REBOL is a dynamically-typed language. This is familiar > territory if you are used to Smalltalk, Python, or Perl; > It may take some adjustment if you are used to Java, C++, > Eiffel, Delphi, etc. Type errors (attempting to apply an > innappropriate operation on a value, trying to access a > non-existent component of an object, etc.) are caught at > run time, not prevented at compile time. > > 2) An object in REBOL is a namespace. The values associated > with the words defined in an object represent the state of > the object, and functions defined (at creation time) within > the object use those words in the familiar way: > > sample: make object! [ > some-data: "Hello, world!" > some-method: func [] [print some-data] > ] > ... I know I repeat again myself but ... Your example and explanation about the way REBOL manages its own OBJECTS and how someone can use them to create something useful (even that simple) comes hand in hand with the way I think the DOC can be enhanced by many other small code examples. This is generally well done by the ML members like you and any other advanced REBOLER when required - and there will always be some need in this area - but I really think there is some place in the official DOC to put at least some minimal examples that could help beginners to first read by themselves if they can find and understand what the look for before having to always restate their questions here. Understand me well - I am not trying to prevent anybody to ask any question here since I do this myself as often as I feel I need it. The problem to doing it like it now relates more with the dependancy we create towards this ML from the point of view of a true beginner that has some difficulty at finding real simple functioning and well explained examples before trying himself at coding. I am currently collecting many of these snippets that the ML answered during the last 2 years ans I try to classify them around keywords. When I will consider my effort to be mature enough for submission and review I'll let you know. In this sense if anybody here did the same kind of work and would share his ideas with others, I would be glad to share some ideas with this or these people. If I remember well Jason and Graham already put online some information of this nature that could be used by any newcomer to REBOL and myself I will reuse some of their material with their permission. Fell free to contribute and send me everything you already have that could help me further in this direction. May be someone even did classify his own code examples according to some criteria that could be used by others and could be submitted to me too for discussion. I currently see 2 general categories to start with : (but some may be added later if needed) 1- In the current "How-to-do" sense a) for very small Core or View features (similar to the cookbook but for even simpler features - traps, gotchas and limitations also included and somehow explained) b) day-to-day small to do tasks (currently adding to the actual cookbook that does very well for now) 2- In the current "Concepts" explained a) for delivering internal REBOL secrets (like documenting the system object, the many facets and default values offered by all the View- VID styles, the eval-exec cycle, context, binding and objects workings, ... but also in the sense of and advanced how to a bit like what the REBOL ZINE did sometime ago - i.e. extending the way objects are used to include more classical OO
[REBOL] Re: CGI problem
ZikZak, What flavor of REBOL are you using for programming CGI? REBOL/Core? Carlos Em Dom 11 Jan 2004 17:09, you wrote: > Hi, > > I'm a beginner with Rebol and im' trying to test the cgi of the tutorial : > > #!/www/cgi/rebol -c > REBOL [Title: "Server Time"] > print "content-type: text/html^/" > print [] > print ["Date/time is:" now] > print [] > > but when I open the page with my browser I obtain the following message : > > ** Near: size: size-text self > all [ > para para/origin size: size + para/origin > para/margin size: size + para/margin > ] > > [H[J > > > Can you explain to me where is the problem ? > > Best regards > -- > ZikZak -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
> I hope many of my posts recently appear too critical or negative lately. arggh sorry bad edit type -- that should be: "I hope many of my posts recently DON'T appear too critical or negative lately." -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi Jason, Just some comments, not criticisms, just my perspective. JC> ...rebol dialects really have not been tested and used my large JC> numbers of people in complex apps, so we donlt know yet the JC> deeper implications of using them. As Gabriele said, Domain Specific Languages are definitely a known quantity, used widely for a long time. A good example is the game industry. Most games today are built with a specialized language that was developed in-house, or built by a vendor whose toolkit you use. Coding the high-level logic of complex games in C++ just doesn't make sense, so they build an engine to do the heavy lifting and use a "dialected interface" to it to build the actual game content. It's really just another form of abstraction. JC> ...whether it behaves differently or if its sytnax is consistent JC> or not with their expectations and the parent language. People don't have to know that a dialect has a "parent language". What's important is that all the similarities you *can* leverage with embedded languages reduce the "impedance mistmatch" for users and makes it more accessible. The less there is to learn, the better, in most cases. Now, in cases where the end user is a regular person--not a programmer or other "genus geekus" :)--there won't be any expectation, except that of the domain. That's where it's important to match expectations. JC> VID for example is one dialect for view. But already in places it is fuses a JC> slightly different syntactic set of conventions than regular rebol. That is JC> good or bad depending on your POV. In general I am in favor of as much JC> syntax consistency as possible. One of the main reasons I see for not worrying about syntax compatibility is leverage. The more you constrain yourself in your DSL, the less opportunity you have to make great strides--focus on the domain first. Also, we have to separate syntax from semantics. If you write a block-based dialect, you're going to be syntax compatible with REBOL; this is one of REBOL's greatest strengths and achievements IMO--the foundation it gives us to build on, with so little syntax to get in the way. More importantly, REBOL's syntax allows us to work with "human syntax" very closely (or at least English syntax, as far as word-forms and such are concerned). Think about dialects for humans as much, or more, as dialects for developers. JC> Python is perhaps the most balanced language where write-ability = JC> read-ability. Python's named function arguments have much to do with this. I did a named-arg experiment a while back, using a different approach than Gabriele IIRC. In the general case, I think they help most when something is poorly designed (e.g. has too many args or bad arg order), though there were rare occasions when I used them for clarity. JC> ...In fact its the same problem in real life - JC> lawyer politicians scientists, rap artists, poets all have their own JC> dialects and often cannot communicate well. But they can communicate with each other much more effectively--i.e. within their domain. That's what it's all about IMO; effective communication. If your message were not written in a dialect, would it have been as effective? Consider the following terms: trolling parent-language syntax VID View POV OO REBOL Python named-function-arguments namespace Forth GUI Now consider how much you would have to explain to someone, in order to convey what "named function arguments" are. Here's a great paper, from Guy Steele: Growing a Language http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/steele-oopsla98.pdf JC> Designing Rebol dialects is not easy. Agreed 100%. Good post. Every time dialects come up this way, it makes me think, and re-think, how I want to explain them to people, why I think they're important, etc. So, thanks! --Gregg -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] [REBOL.org] Recent changes
[REBOL] [REBOL.org] Recent changes This is an automatic email from REBOL.org, the REBOL Script Library to notify you of recent changes to the Library. ===changes=== gen-syntx.r --change: new script --title: generate syntx line-intersection-demo.r --change: new script --title: Line Intersection Demo steganography.r --change: new script --change: updated script --title: REBOL::STEGANOGRAPHY unzip-desktop.r --change: updated script --title: View-Desktop packed by Volker vid-usage.r --change: new script --change: updated script --title: VID Usage ===additional information=== new and updated scripts: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/search.r?special-filter=recent ===end=== --The Library People --12-Jan-2004 -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Volker wrote: ...snip... > The more complex lacks teaching. And dialects lacks experience which teaching > too. It seems stuff like the cookbook works better than traditional bibles. ..snip.. Wow. Great reply. Volker thank you. I need more time to absorb. When I say that Rebol is more write-able than readable, that is meant as a complement, but should perhaps have been posed as a question. Rebol first and foremost is about personal hands-on programming. Small fast clever fun. I am trying to discern how well it work at a collaborative scale. The question for everyone is how well do you read other people's rebol code? I hope many of my posts recently appear too critical or negative lately. I am just looking harder for deeper understanding of Rebol and how to discuss, explain, compare its strengths its virtues and idiosyncrasies. For me, what I truly value most is how Rebol influences my thinking. And I am fascinated by the differences between Rebol and the mainstream. In particular I am doing early research into many different kinds of learning for a big documentary resource project. Its very wide in scope, but a big part includes the affects and process of learning computer programming. This is not an academic project, and it tries to focus on personal experience over theory. So anecdotal and emotional facets are important. I believe Rebol embodies many deeply good ideas for new kind of programming - and at the heart of that is implied a fresh approach to what learning is about. Still hard to discuss this though. Anyway I really appreciate all your care and attention and for answering my arguments and digressions. There is a pattern behind the chaos. Hopefully that will become clear in time. Jason -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Hi Gabriele, Gabriele wrote: == > GC> 2. The Call/output doesn't seem to create and fill the > GC> expected file with the results outputted when used - an empty > GC> file is created > GC> and nothing else. > > CALL/OUTPUT actually works correctly on Windows. You can also > redirect the output to a string, like: > > >> call/output "ping localhost" s: "" > == 0 > >> print s > Thanks for demonstrating this way of doing things. I will be VERY useful to many of us I think. > > GC> call/output "E:\Installation de logiciel\REBOL\View 1.3 - > GC> Betas testing\rebview1224031.exe -s xcode.r" %results.txt > GC> print read > GC> %results.txt > > REBOL does not send output to STDOUT on Windows, so CALL/OUTPUT on > REBOL itself isn't useful. > AH! AH! This is the real reason I presume. Seems I misconceived the way it would work as I skipped the fact that the CALL would redirect all the outputted output even the results coming from the newly called copy of REBOL. I could have done better but sometimes evidence is in front of our face without our eyes seeing it. An old "déjà vu" pattern that still survives... many many years! Thanks for this one. Now at least I know that I was looking for is not feasible in the way hoped to do so.I > GC> As it currently stands I don't see the real usefulness of > GC> having a script like easy-vid.r or any other script that would > GC> lauch > GC> another REBOL script during some CLICK and PLAY demo app > GC> - as I planned it initially... > > To launch another REBOL script there's LAUNCH. > Thanks. I'll throw an eye on it too. May be it could have been shorter than learning to use the CALL mechanism. But as I don't know the details I will not speculate here. I'll first go and learn more. Regards, Gerard -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Hi Volker,
- Original Message -
Volker Wrote:
> > call/output "E:\Installation de logiciel\REBOL\View 1.3 - Betas
> > testing\rebview1224031.exe -s xcode.r" %results.txt print read %results.txt
>
> first look: can you check for whitespace-handling? i would expect you need ""
> around the exe-path, like
> call {"wsp path\rebol.exe" args}
> in your example i expect "E:\Installation" is called with the rest as
> argument.
>
I will look at but seems the exec worked fine and the results correctly displayed
on the console. Seems the output has something to do with the mystery - and a
few seconds ago I received the reason from Gabriele. See its answer by yourself.
Clearly it is erroneous for me to think that CALLING a copy of REBOL ensures
the output of the running script is also redirected since REBOL normally doesn't
send its output to STDOUT. This is a misconception I had about the way I
planned my solution as it is often the case.
I simply skipped the fact that this is the second copy of REBOL that must be
redirected and not only the first one...
Thank you,
Gerard
P.S. I will nevertheless try your suggestions just to see the effects I can get from
them
even if I don't hope to receive the results in a file as planned working in this
direction.
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[REBOL] Re: What else don't I know
Hi Petr
- Original Message -
Petr wrote:
> yes, we did it that way - start /wait . do not remember if console
> window stays open or not though ... try to run console ("cmd" command
> under W2K/XP and type "start /?" for help - you will find some nice
> functions parameters there, which could provided you with what you want)
>
> cheers,
> -pekr-
>
I suppose that if I include some waiting in the Batch file before it ends by itself
this have some chance to succeed.
I really welcome you sharing your experience,
Regards,
Gerard
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[REBOL] Re: What else don't I know
Hi Volker, Thanks for the many suggestions you offered. I had already thought about the first one but I forgot in the process. For being able to keep up with the second one I will have to learn a bit more about View and DIV but it seems like the best way to go at first sight. I also see an interest in trying the 3rd as it seems like an easy do-it. In fact I'll try to do my best at each of them in the next few hours (days...) and I'll come back to report any news. Thanks, Gerard - Original Message - Volker wrote: > I am new to call and windows, so i can't tell much. > what i would try: > - run it in a batch-file and add some wait-statement at end. you could launch > rebol with a requester to keep window open > - if you don't need user-input in dos-window, use call/output and show results > in a /view-window > - there is a call/console which says it uses rebol-console instead of > dos-window. but never tried. > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Hi Petr, IIRC I already tested it and saw no difference. But I'll try the many suggestions Volker offered me and I'll come back soon. Thanks, Gerard - Original Message - From: "Petr Krenzelok" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 4:11 AM Subject: [REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3 > > Gerard Cote wrote: > > >Oups! I forgot to join the entire file as a reference to those interested. > >Here it is. > > > >Regards, > >Gerard > > > >P.S. I also looked back to the REBOL Command SHELL interface (Official Docs) and it > >seems that one way to let REBOL do leave an > >executed console window opened would necessitate a new switch to use when launching > >REBOL as in REBOL -k(for keep open) > >and this would be bypassing the normal internals REBOL is using. In normal case > >REBOL automatically adds intrnally the /c switch > >with the CALL under Windows OS as if the coders had used CALL/c to automatically > >close the console window when finished... > > > > > > > What about call/wait? > > -pekr- > > >-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- > >-- Type: text/x-rebol > >-- File: my-easy-vid-coder.r > > > > > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Hi Volker,
On Monday, January 12, 2004, 4:27:37 PM, you wrote:
VN> How about [ call/output "rebol --cgi script.r" ] ? should write to output?
Hmm, -c does not work in a MS-DOS window, but does with
CALL/OUTPUT. That's good to know. :-)
>> call/output {rebol.exe -c --do "print 'hello quit"} s: ""
== 0
>> print s
hello
Regards,
Gabriele.
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[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Am Montag 12 Januar 2004 11:52 schrieb Gabriele Santilli: > Hi Gerard, > > REBOL does not send output to STDOUT on Windows, so CALL/OUTPUT on > REBOL itself isn't useful. > How about [ call/output "rebol --cgi script.r" ] ? should write to output? > > Regards, >Gabriele. -Volker -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Am Sonntag 11 Januar 2004 22:56 schrieb Jason Cunliffe: > > function. There is much more to using it than meets the eye. And I > > believe not yet enough examples or use of dialects for most people to > > understand > > yet > > > the long-term implication of the idea or how well this works in reality. > > I was not trolling. And I am certainly not against dialects. Simply stating > the situation as I see it - rebol dialects really have not been tested and > used my large numbers of people in complex apps, so we donlt know yet the > deeper implications of using them. > We know. 'parse 'func (the argument header) 'compose are all dialects. Works well :) Make-doc is proven enough, i can read the howtos well :) Rebol OTOH has proven that some problems do not need complex apps. And complex design for this problems can not compete with rebol sometimes, despite offering visual magicall wizardry tools. > One issue of dialects has come up here, is that while they can lead to > sweet short code, dialects are only as good as their documentation. Since > one is possibly creating a specialistssub- language within the parent > language, there has to be excllent way for people to know what it contains, > whether it behaves differently or if its sytnax is consistent or not with > their expectations and the parent language. > Thats the same with OO, only harder. Thats why OO is only usable with lots of tooltips on code and auto-completion and whatnot. You can't do what a dialect do simpler in OO. I agree one needs documents. what is nice, this documents can be at howto/tutorial-level and show usefull examples in some lines of code. which makes helping other people lots easier than pagelong examples. > VID for example is one dialect for view. But already in places it is fuses > a slightly different syntactic set of conventions than regular rebol. That > is good or bad depending on your POV. In general I am in favor of as much > syntax consistency as possible. But its early days, so experimentation and > diversity are required. When a solo developer to creates a dialect , they > are 100% free to do whatever works best for their need and style. But if > that work is to be really helpful to a wide community, then subtle > variations and idiosyncrasies can soon become an obstacle to adoption. > As Andreas mentioned: http://schemas.microsoft.com/2003/xaml";> Cancel OK this is the short way with oops ;) where have i seen that before? and when? Could it even be a hint that dialects in OO have merits? ;) > > Panel [ > > Button/System "Cancel" 'Cancel > > Button/System "OK 'OK > > ] > > > > Which one would you prefer? :) > > Yes no contest. But I think its a rather misleading comparison you offer. > > In standard OO languages like Python you typically package up any verbose > complexity to create an class/object which is as easy and concise to use as > your Rebol example. Naa. This classes are then used in the same long way as they are created to compose more sophisticated classes. while in rebol the layouts are used in larger layouts. Think of styles build out of styles. now calculate: if a level needs 5 lines in rebol and 25 with oops, two levels need 25:625, three 125:15625 (if my console calculates right). And suddely you know where the mb's are comming from. (Q&D-statistic, don't trust it ;) > Rebol is lovely and clean partly because it removes > extra punctuation. I think rebol is much easier to write than read. Rebol is lovely because of excellent defaults IMHO. > Python is perhaps the most balanced language where write-ability = > read-ability. Python's named function arguments have much to do with this. > > Programmers in Rebol and Python both have to be very aware of namespace. I > think this is what Max's SLiM is addressing and so I imagine could greatly > help dialect use in Rebol. The difference is in length of code. Requirements change with that. So rebol can solve a level II - problem with level I tools, where python needs its level II tools. means rebol can work without namespaces in arrays where python cant. the big question is, can you keep the problem at level II, or do you need level V? the higher the level, the more python catches up. but this is by design, rebol is tuned as dragster, python for paris-dakar. > > In rebol if you see 'button' in some code how do you know if that's a > default button or dialected word also named "button" which may have > overlapping behavior. because the layout is quarter page away. You have the same problem with OO, which of this 23**x draw()-methods in the source do you really call with "face.draw()"? > Beyond namespace there is the social aspect of how > customized developments can be elegant but harder to use/maintain because > they have smaller population. In fact its the same problem in real life - > lawyer politicians scientists, rap artists, poets all have their own > dialects and often cannot communicate we
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi, Behrang, Behrang Saeedzadeh wrote: > > ... is REBOL Object Oriented? > As you can tell from the variety of responses, the question is a bit tricky to handle. Unfortunately, the phrase "object oriented" has been siezed on by marketers, reporters, comp sci researchers, methodologists, consultants, and snake oil salesmen, and given different spins by all of the above. Let me duck the phrasing of your original question, and answer a closely-related one, in the hope that something I say will address your needs: I already know how to program in language XYZ, which is commonly regarded as an object-oriented language. How much of what I know about programming in XYZ will be useful to programming in REBOL? Answering this modified question would require addressing some of the following issues: 1) REBOL is a dynamically-typed language. This is familiar territory if you are used to Smalltalk, Python, or Perl; It may take some adjustment if you are used to Java, C++, Eiffel, Delphi, etc. Type errors (attempting to apply an innappropriate operation on a value, trying to access a non-existent component of an object, etc.) are caught at run time, not prevented at compile time. 2) An object in REBOL is a namespace. The values associated with the words defined in an object represent the state of the object, and functions defined (at creation time) within the object use those words in the familiar way: sample: make object! [ some-data: "Hello, world!" some-method: func [] [print some-data] ] Immediately after evaluating the above definition, an evaluation of SOME-METHOD results in the output of Hello, world! regardless of whether there's a word SOME-DATA defined anywhere else (e.g. globally, within another object, etc.) 3) All words defined within an object are "public". That's why I had to say "immediately after evaluating..." in the previous point. Given the above object, you can also say sample/some-data: "Goodbye, cruel world!" to change the state of SAMPLE. There's no built-in way to make SOME-DATA private, and inaccessible to the rest of the world. 4) REBOL uses a prototype model of object creation, rather than a class-based model or a delegation model. Objects are made one-at-a-time and one-of-a-kind. You can use a block (as in the above example) as a specification for creating an object, and can use the same block repeatedly: sample-spec: [ some-data: "Hello, world!" some-method: func [] [print some-data] ] sample1: make object! sample-spec sample2: make object! sample-spec sample3: make object! sample-spec but once those objects are created, each has a life (state) of its own; any resemblance is viewed by REBOL as merely coincidental. In particular, each of the above objects has its *own* function named SOME-METHOD . There's no concept in REBOL of "instance method" shared between the objects. You can also use an existing object as a specification: demo1: make object! [ some-data: "Hello, world!" some-method: func [] [print some-data] ] demo2: make demo1 [] demo3: make demo2 [] but, again, a newly created object is like a newly-hatched sea turtle; it resembles any siblings which may have come from the same parent, but immediatly upon hatching, it must face the wild ocean on its own. It has no parent. 5) As a consequence of all of the above (and the dynamic nature of REBOL itself) you can build your own convenience methods to implement some features you may be accustomed to using: greeter-class: make object! [ _greeter: make object! [ greetee: "TBD" greet: func [] [greeter-class/_greet self] ] new: func [who [string!]] [ make _greeter [greetee: copy who] ] _greet: func [which [object!]] [ print ["Hello," which/greetee] ] ] which provides a constructor (NEW) and a single shared method for all "instances" (GREETER-CLASS/GREET), which defer to the "class" definition... >> world-greeter: greeter-class/new "world!" >> mom-greeter: greeter-class/new "Mom!" >> lonesome-greeter: greeter-class/new "anybody?" ...so that each "instance" uses the common behavior: >> world-greeter/greet Hello, world! >> mom-greeter/greet Hello, Mom! >> lonesome-greeter/greet Hello, anybody? Of course this is overkill for something as simple as shown above, but if the GREET method were complex and lengthy, it would save space to have each "
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi, > Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is REBOL > Object Oriented? Yes, like Self: http://research.sun.com/self/language.html --- Ciao Romano -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: ML for Jabber ?
Assuming that you have a jabber server, running on port 5222 installed on a server named APACHES you can get to it over telnet and send the following: this will return notice that these are not well formed xml streams, they become well formed when you close the streams by sending at which point the server sends I don't know if ML can handle not well formed streams like that? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A J Martin Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 3:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [REBOL] Re: ML for Jabber ? Jason wrote: > Has anyone used ML dialect for creating Jabber messages ? What do Jabber messages look like in XML? :) Once I know that I can show you how it works out in ML dialect. -- Andrew J Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://www.rebol.it/Valley/ http://valley.orcon.net.nz/ http://Valley.150m.com/ -><- -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Menu Bars and Tool Bars
There were two bits of work to make a Win95 look and feel
One by Frank at his FX5 site. I think his code is now "offline".
And the other by Doc Kimble. Here is the quote from the REBOL site
http://www.rebol.com/pre-view.html
{Windows 95 Skin
Size: 28 KB (multiple files)
We were totally blown away when Doc Kimble sent us this program! It uses REBOL/View's
GUI stylesheet mechanism to create an amazing new GUI skin that looks and feels like
Windows 95. You can use this skin to make your REBOL applications have that
traditional corporate look. It defines several new REBOL styles, including menus, tab
panels, and more.}
I started to put some of the both of these in the %vid-usage.r pages but have to find
the updated copy of Doc's script to solve this error:
{** Script Error: Invalid path value: 1
** Where: view
** Near: pos: face/size - face/pane/1/size -
}
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[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Hi Gerard, On Sunday, January 11, 2004, 10:48:35 PM, you wrote: GC> 2. The Call/output doesn't seem to create and fill the GC> expected file with the results outputted when used - an empty GC> file is created GC> and nothing else. CALL/OUTPUT actually works correctly on Windows. You can also redirect the output to a string, like: >> call/output "ping localhost" s: "" == 0 >> print s Esecuzione di Ping GABRIELE [::1] con 32 byte di dati: Risposta da ::1: durata<1ms Risposta da ::1: durata<1ms Risposta da ::1: durata<1ms Risposta da ::1: durata<1ms Statistiche Ping per ::1: Pacchetti: Trasmessi = 4, Ricevuti = 4, Persi = 0 (0% persi), Tempo approssimativo percorsi andata/ritorno in millisecondi: Minimo = 0ms, Massimo = 0ms, Medio = 0ms >> GC> call/output "E:\Installation de logiciel\REBOL\View 1.3 - GC> Betas testing\rebview1224031.exe -s xcode.r" %results.txt GC> print read GC> %results.txt REBOL does not send output to STDOUT on Windows, so CALL/OUTPUT on REBOL itself isn't useful. GC> As it currently stands I don't see the real usefulness of GC> having a script like easy-vid.r or any other script that would GC> lauch GC> another REBOL script during some CLICK and PLAY demo app GC> - as I planned it initially... To launch another REBOL script there's LAUNCH. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- REBOL Programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/ -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Am Sonntag 11 Januar 2004 22:48 schrieb Gerard Cote:
> Hi list,
> call/output "E:\Installation de logiciel\REBOL\View 1.3 - Betas
> testing\rebview1224031.exe -s xcode.r" %results.txt print read %results.txt
first look: can you check for whitespace-handling? i would expect you need ""
around the exe-path, like
call {"wsp path\rebol.exe" args}
in your example i expect "E:\Installation" is called with the rest as
argument.
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[REBOL] Re: CGI problem
Hi ZikZak, On Sunday, January 11, 2004, 8:09:51 PM, you wrote: Z> Can you explain to me where is the problem ? As Andrew said, you should use Core and not View. But not because View needs installation, rather that error means that View can't connect to the X server (that is, you don't get the full error message there). Core does not need an X server. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- REBOL Programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/ -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: What else don't I know
Volker Nitsch wrote:
>Am Samstag 10 Januar 2004 23:46 schrieb Gerard Cote:
>
>
>>Hi Volker,
>>
>>Since I saw your name on the discussion about the CALL mechanism included
>>in View, can you tell me if it will be possible to permit under Windows
>>that a DOS execution Window to stay open after the launched command exec is
>>completed. The actual Doc about the SHELL and CALL use say it can't -
>>because it is forced.
>>
>>
>
>I am new to call and windows, so i can't tell much.
>what i would try:
> - run it in a batch-file and add some wait-statement at end. you could launch
>rebol with a requester to keep window open
>
>
yes, we did it that way - start /wait . do not remember if console
window stays open or not though ... try to run console ("cmd" command
under W2K/XP and type "start /?" for help - you will find some nice
functions parameters there, which could provided you with what you want)
cheers,
-pekr-
>- if you don't need user-input in dos-window, use call/output and show results
>in a /view-window
>- there is a call/console which says it uses rebol-console instead of
>dos-window. but never tried.
>
>
>
>>Can ask Carl if version of View with this Call enabled can be produced to
>>that a user could modify this option so the exec window be kept open until
>>the user desires to manually do so.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Gerard
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Am Sonntag 11 Januar 2004 18:52 schrieb Behrang Saeedzadeh: > Hi > > Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is REBOL > Object Oriented? > i would call it OE, object enabled. its harder to use than "native" rebol. that is, its as hard as OO-only ;) when comming from OO, i would say: patterns are coded in functions, instead of in special objects. patterns are used a lot, reducing the need for methods implemented in objects. objects then only need to handle reactions to dispatchers, not dealing that much with inter-object- and subclass-realations. works nice. after a while i would forget that terminalogie - uhm, actually i have.. ;) > Thanks, > Behrang S. > -Volker -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Menu Bars and Tool Bars
Hi Behrang, Am Sonntag 11 Januar 2004 12:20 schrieb Behrang Saeedzadeh: > Hi > > I'm a Java developer and a REBOL beginner. I just > wanted to know how can I add menu bars and tool bars > to a REBOL view. > > Thanks. > This looks ugly, but quick to code and works like menues and toolbars. (if you want submenues, your script is to long ;) [REBOL [ Title: "toolbarmenu" ] view layout[ across ;menues choice "*files*" "open" "close" "magic" "quit"[ do pick[ [alert "open"] [alert "close"] [alert "three wishes. only three!"] [quit] ] -1 + index? find face/data value ] choice "*find*" "find" "find next"[ do pick [ [alert "find"] [alert "find next"] ] -1 + index? find face/data value ] return ;toolbar btn "pressme"[alert "pressme was pressed"] btn "press me to"[alert "now all pressed?"] return area "here would be some data" ]] ;-volker -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: What else don't I know
Am Samstag 10 Januar 2004 23:46 schrieb Gerard Cote: > Hi Volker, > > Since I saw your name on the discussion about the CALL mechanism included > in View, can you tell me if it will be possible to permit under Windows > that a DOS execution Window to stay open after the launched command exec is > completed. The actual Doc about the SHELL and CALL use say it can't - > because it is forced. I am new to call and windows, so i can't tell much. what i would try: - run it in a batch-file and add some wait-statement at end. you could launch rebol with a requester to keep window open - if you don't need user-input in dos-window, use call/output and show results in a /view-window - there is a call/console which says it uses rebol-console instead of dos-window. but never tried. > > Can ask Carl if version of View with this Call enabled can be produced to > that a user could modify this option so the exec window be kept open until > the user desires to manually do so. > > Thanks, > Gerard -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: SHELL cmd exec using CALL in View 1.3
Gerard Cote wrote: >Oups! I forgot to join the entire file as a reference to those interested. >Here it is. > >Regards, >Gerard > >P.S. I also looked back to the REBOL Command SHELL interface (Official Docs) and it >seems that one way to let REBOL do leave an >executed console window opened would necessitate a new switch to use when launching >REBOL as in REBOL -k(for keep open) >and this would be bypassing the normal internals REBOL is using. In normal case REBOL >automatically adds intrnally the /c switch >with the CALL under Windows OS as if the coders had used CALL/c to automatically >close the console window when finished... > > > What about call/wait? -pekr- >-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- >-- Type: text/x-rebol >-- File: my-easy-vid-coder.r > > > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
[REBOL] Re: Is Rebol OO?
Hi Jason, On Sunday, January 11, 2004, 10:56:22 PM, you wrote: JC> I was not trolling. And I am certainly not against dialects. Simply stating JC> the situation as I see it - rebol dialects really have not been tested and JC> used my large numbers of people in complex apps, so we donlt know yet the JC> deeper implications of using them. How many scripts do you know that do NOT use any dialect? JC> One issue of dialects has come up here, is that while they can lead to sweet JC> short code, dialects are only as good as their documentation. Since one is That applies to any language, or library/API, or class, or whatever... I don't see it as a special disadvantage of dialects. JC> Python is perhaps the most balanced language where write-ability = JC> read-ability. Python's named function arguments have much to do with this. Personally I don't see any real advantage in "named function arguments". That is, why don't you see people doing something like: nam-arg-func: func [spec code] [ use [spec' code'] [ code': code spec': context spec func [block] [ block: make spec' block do bind/copy code' in block 'self ] ] ] >> f: nam-arg-func [a: 1 b: 2] [a + b] >> f [] == 3 >> f [a: 3] == 5 >> f [a: 3 b: 5] == 8 You can also have "default local" vars with a little variation, nam-arg-func: func [spec code] [ use [spec' code'] [ code': code spec': context spec func [block] [ make make spec' block code' ] ] ] It's almost a one liner... JC> With rebol dialects, success is a tradeoff between readability, JC> write-ability, documentation, name-space and learning curve. They're a great JC> idea, but not been around long enough to know how to use them best, grasp JC> the trade-offs. The concept of domain specific languages is not that new. Giving the power to use them to anyone is new, however. And of course if you're not a language designer you're probably going to feel a little lost. ;-) But anyone can become a language designer. :) JC> I look forwards to seeing copies of O'Reilly latest: "Rebol Dialects in a JC> Nutshell". JC> Then we'll know they really arrived! If you mean, how to implement a dialect, that's already easy enough. If you mean, how to design it, well, won't ever be an "easy task", as any other design problem. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- REBOL Programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/ -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
