[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
> > Hello to all, > > I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but your going to > get it anyway. I feel a real need to vent. I have been tinkering > with and watching the progression of Rebol for approx. two years > now. I am a Unix Systems Administrator/Programming Hack. [... more ...] Well, I agree with Jim Richards. I bounght Rebol/Command, since I tried the free version and I liked it very much. Maybe for a "traditional" programmer the language is really different (sometimes the debugging is very difficult, since I don't exactly if a word is a user function, is a function of another dialect, etc... and is difficult to follow the flow) but there are a lot of wonderful features... 1) distribution is very compact; 2) not much code to make some operations like http, ftp, etc...; 3) GUI is enough good for an application (even if some components are still missing...); 4) Language is enough fast an not very heavy for a computer (compared to Java...); 5) Multiplatform; 6) ... but... Documentation: ugly! VID dictionary is missing. Lot of features are not mentioned (I downloaded much more doc from other sites to understand how to handle sliders, sub panels, events on radio-buttons, etc...). This situation should be normal (!) for an open source language (Perl, Python, etc...) but not for a commercial one, which I paid! I know many things because there is this mailing-list, else... I have to say to my company if this a good language to develop future programs: what can I say? There are a lot of advantages, but I have many doubts about it: will the documentation be improved? Which projects has, for the future, Carl Sassenrath? Will he continue for the future to develop this system (since this software is not open source, no one can continue to develop it if Carl will stop the development)? Many questions... very few answers... can I suggest to my company to use this system to develop programs? (the problem is very big: since I work in Bridgestone/Firestone in Rome, and my answer will influence the software development for many plants in the Europe and in the Technical Center!). bye! -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Le maglie con il numero e il nome dei tuoi campioni, sono sul Milanstore Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=313&d=11-3 -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
On 06-Mar-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Heh, then you choosed a bad aproach for clarification? :-) I am able to
> produce database connection in 1 minute and generate output in another
> ten.
They also know I can do the same in Perl and Java, it's hardly complicated.
> You have to show her Rebol's advantage. Are you joking here or
> what? You do have enought money for Oracle license, while you can't pay
> stupid 350 USD for Rebol/Command? Come on. :-) I know it can be a
> problem sometimes, but you just have to try fight your way. What about
> /Pro version and wrapping around some library?
I work for a UK university, if you've ever done the same you will know that
is explanation enough ;) If not, well we have a university site license for
Oracle 8, they need it for the student databases so I can piggyback on the
department's system for free. The project I needed the database for wasn't
critical: it's a system to let us keep track of distance learning courses
and the students on the courses that we teach for a few departments and
sell to industry. At present this is done using a collection of squares
of compressed vegetable matter with graphite or ink markings, but some
recent mistakes by some of the secretaries had shown the system had problems.
You think I can somehow convince my boss, at a university, for a non-critical
project, when there are already a handful of lanugages available that I can
use as well (one of which I wrote a course on), that spending $350 Is a good
idea? We had to go through enough red tape to get the copies of Flash I
needed for developing material in one of the courses, and ARM were paying for
that!
BTW, please don't even suggest MySQL and the mysql-protocol - you should
have seen the veins on the side of the neck of one of our sysadmins when I
so much as mentioned mysql... ;)
Chris
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Tact, n.:
The unsaid part of what you're thinking.
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[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
I think the main reason it's not being adopted is that Rebol Tech is focusing on an area that is, in my opinoin, not a good area for programmers to generate income using the script (IOS). If RT would take some time to create a FREE browser plugin out of Rebol View, then even if Rebol cost money (the EULA is a bit cryptic for me) a lot of Rebol programmers would start making programs they could sell. For money. And revenue is what makes the world go around. If you can make money at something, such as Miva Scripting (which is what I do successfully), programmers will latch on to it and through them the language will develop. In the case of Rebol, there is no point at all to even learn how to program in it because the average Joe on the street can't see what you've programmed. As soon as RT figures out that making Rebol scripts as easy to run as Flash or anything else that requires a simple plugin for popular browsers, I'll bet the language will take off like a rocket. Revenue will increase for RT, revenue will increase for rebol programmers, and the people will wonder why they haven't been able to play tetris on someone's web page before. I've been using Miva script (miva.com) just about since the inception of it. In fact, one of my Miva scripting adversaries (um, friends that is), turned me on to Rebol two years ago. You could see the huge potential. You can still see the huge potential. Unfortunately, it's not being realized. Miva on the other hand went ahead and made a product out of their scripting language, and that product opened up a huge developers market, so people learned the language in order to be able to customize the product, which in turn allowed developers to make new products, which in turn makes the whole Miva experience profitable. Of course, with Miva scripts, you don't have to pay royalties, and they are interpreted similar to PHP. Keep in mind I am NOT comparing the miva language to the rebol language- I'm just comparing business strategies. Scot - Original Message - From: "Jim Richards" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 4:43 AM Subject: [REBOL] What's Up Rebol? > > Hello to all, > > I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but your going to get it anyway. I feel a real need to vent. I have been tinkering with and watching the progression of Rebol for approx. two years now. I am a Unix Systems Administrator/Programming Hack.. I have worked with Perl, Python and Ruby over the past few years but I keep coming back to Rebol. Why? Because it is a brilliant work of art. There is nothing out there that can compare to Rebols' simplicity and uniqueness. So, I am forced to ask myself a lot of questions. > > Why aren't more programmers adopting the language? > > You would think that with all the early adopters of Linux and that movement, that these same folks would be early adopters of Rebol and it's greatness. Why? Why hasn't this happened? > > Why is the book "Rebol The Official Guide" called The Official Guide? > > I have purchased and read some of the material in it and think that it should be appropriately named "Database Programming With Rebol". Where's the official guide part? Did I miss it. Am I illiterate. Oh, and then there's "Rebol /Core [User Guide] You know the one without the index. The "Index" you know that indispensable thing as technicians that we refer to on a daily basis. > > Why hasn't there been any news from Rebol in five months? > > This is odd, you would think that somebody promoting a product would be seeking to distribute all kinds of news. > > Should I invest the time and energy in learning Rebol? > > God knows I want to, but I just keep getting the impression that this one will not be long lived. Every few days I fire up View click around and what do I find, more sites that don't work or sites that just have an email contact. Wow, now isn't that interesting. There are a few good ones though Brett at Codeconscious has done a great job. We need more of you Brett. DocKimbel and his mysql-protocol which I am having a great time with. > > Well it's time to go, I just felt a real need to vent some of my frustrations. I just get the impression that Rebol is failing at reaching the real future of Rebol, programmers and innovators. > > Thanks for listening. > > Have a Great Day > > Jim Richards > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes. > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
Chris wrote: > It'd be nice if it was REBOL, but too often it is more work to make a > good REBOL solution than an adequate Perl one. To say nothing of what > happens when you want a commercial script with Oracle database access, > my boss couldn't stop laughing when I showed her the price for /command Heh, then you choosed a bad aproach for clarification? :-) I am able to produce database connection in 1 minute and generate output in another ten. You have to show her Rebol's advantage. Are you joking here or what? You do have enought money for Oracle license, while you can't pay stupid 350 USD for Rebol/Command? Come on. :-) I know it can be a problem sometimes, but you just have to try fight your way. What about /Pro version and wrapping around some library? -pekr- > > Chris -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
Hi Jim > Why aren't more programmers adopting the language? 1) License. 2) Lack of doc and reference doc. 3) A functional language it is not the first choice for a standard programmer. 4) Almost nobody speaks of Rebol outside this "private" mailing list 5) The future of Rebol is not clear. > I have purchased and read some of the material in it and think that it should be appropriately named "Database Programming With Rebol". Where's the official guide part? Did I miss it. Am I illiterate. Oh, and then there's "Rebol /Core [User Guide] You know the one without the index. The "Index" you know that indispensable thing as technicians that we refer to on a daily basis. I use the pdf version and its Find function. A little slow, but it works. > Why hasn't there been any news from Rebol in five months? I ask myself the same thing. And no new docs in 9 + months. > This is odd, you would think that somebody promoting a product would be seeking to distribute all kinds of news. I agree. MS is a leader to follow in the fake news area. Fake news are always better than no news :-) > Should I invest the time and energy in learning Rebol? Who knows? I made it. I'm happy. But actually I do not think to make money with Rebol. > Well it's time to go, I just felt a real need to vent some of my frustrations. I just get the impression that Rebol is failing at reaching the real future of Rebol, programmers and innovators. It is not easy to find the right way to success for a product like Rebol. --- Ciao Romano -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
> > > > Why is the book "Rebol The Official Guide" called The Official > > Guide? > > > > Because it was officially blessed as such by RT. In my opinion (to > repeat the disclaimer) that blessing may have been considered a good > compensation for someone off the payroll taking on the challenge of > writing a manual. > I don't know about the name compensation part on the above book but I spent about three very hard, very immersed-in-REBOL months of my life writing REBOL FOR DUMMIES. I don't regret it. I hope my writing reflects the excitment and potential I see in REBOL and I continue to support it, talk it up, and use it myself on a daily basis. ... REBOL still has a long way to go in "catching on," but the enthusiasm of those of us using it should help in achieving that goal. Meanwhile, keep on REBOLling. --Ralph Ralph Roberts, author REBOL FOR DUMMIES http://www.rebolpress.com/rfd/about.html (autographed copies still available by ordering through the above link) -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
Hi, Jim, Here are the opinions of one random guy (me ;-)... Jim Richards wrote: > > Why aren't more programmers adopting the language? > Not all programmers get to chose the languages in which they work. Often one's employer/client mandates a language (or small set of possible languages) based on such issues as existing code base, skills of others in the organization/project, generally available skills in the job market, etc. If you've ever been burned by a "genius" programmer who departed your company/environment leaving a body of code that no-one else could maintain, you'll understand their concerns, even if you don't agree with them. Not everyone views "simplicity and uniqueness" as selection criteria. Some people already have a favorite language that meets the needs of their thinking styles and normal problem domains well enough that they don't see any need to leave their comfort zones. > > You would think that with all the early adopters of Linux and that > movement, that these same folks would be early adopters of Rebol > and it's greatness. Why? Why hasn't this happened? > Many of the early adopters of Linux have a philosophical agenda as well as a technical one. Without bogging down in the distinction between "open source" and "free software" (as in "free speech" not "free lunch"), there are many people who use Linux (or FreeBSD or NetBSD or OpenBSD or many other non-commercial operating systems) precisely because they are non-commercial, open-source products. Such people would not be attracted to REBOL (or any other closed- source, proprietary language). The early adopters who don't have such intense philosophical agendas are still likely to be put off by the documentation issues you have addressed (a few sentences down). > > Why is the book "Rebol The Official Guide" called The Official > Guide? > Because it was officially blessed as such by RT. In my opinion (to repeat the disclaimer) that blessing may have been considered a good compensation for someone off the payroll taking on the challenge of writing a manual. > > The "Index" you know that indispensable thing as technicians that > we refer to on a daily basis. > Welcome to the mailing list! ;-) > > Why hasn't there been any news from Rebol in five months? > > This is odd, you would think that somebody promoting a product > would be seeking to distribute all kinds of news. > It's not uncommon for a small company to have to make choices about how to allocate their scarce resources. I, for one, would rather have RT get stuff done and THEN start blowing their bugles. (This is IMHO the ethical thing to do, in contrast with companies that spend lots of time bragging about what they're GOING to do, just to raise investment capital (or, in the case of one large company I can think of, to scare their customers away from using the products of any perceived competitors)). > > Should I invest the time and energy in learning Rebol? > That depends on what return you expect. I choose to do so because: - I have the (occasional!) freedom to use whatever tool I wish for small work tasks (and, of course, for my personal research). - I have a philosophical agenda too. I prefer platform-neutral tools. - I'm a language junkie. I've lost count of the languages I've learned during my career, either because that was the best tool for some task at hand (for many reasons, see first point above) or for academic reasons, or purely for fun. OTOH, if you're looking to learn a language that will guarantee fame and fortune in the job market, the odds are slimmer at this point that REBOL skill is a sure ticket to commercial demand. > > Well it's time to go, I just felt a real need to vent some of my > frustrations. > Some of which are shared, and periodically vented, by others on this list. > > I just get the impression that Rebol is failing at reaching the > real future of Rebol, programmers and innovators. > Let's not be impatient! Look at the current issue of "New.Architect" magazine (formerly known as "webTechniques"). There's a cover article on "Orchestrating the Internet Operating System" that talks about REBOL. Sometimes good things take time! Bottom line, for me, is that REBOL is worth knowing whether it takes over the world or not. It helps me think about programming in a variety of interesting ways (although it's not the only such tool!) If I someday find myself in high demand because I know REBOL, then that's just gravy! -jn- -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
Jim Richards wrote:
Yow, no wordwrap... ;)
> keep coming back to Rebol. Why? Because it is a brilliant work
> of art. There is nothing out there that can compare to Rebols'
> simplicity and uniqueness. So, I am forced to ask myself a lot
> of questions.
Here's my take on some of them - note these probably are very
contentious ;)
> Why aren't more programmers adopting the language?
> Oh, and then there's "Rebol /Core [User Guide] You know the one
< without the index. The "Index" you know that indispensable thing
> as technicians that we refer to on a daily basis.
These two are, to an extent, interwined.
One of th emajor factors involved is that it isn't free. Perl may
be widely regarded as a Read Only Language, python may be a bit
idiosyncratic, Ruby may be a bit rough around the edges. However, all
three are free - you don't need a license to commercially deploy a
python script, you don't have to buy a pro version of perl to run
sendmail (with more on top if your script is going to be used
commercially). Yes, people will use a tool that gets the job done
faster even when they have to pay for it, which brings us to the
second big problem: the complete dearth of decent REBOL
documentation. No matter how good a lanugage is, it is useless without
good documentation. Right now on the shelf next to me I have 8 perl
books, and that is just a tiny fraction of the number of books there
are out there. I have language specs, I have complete, indexed,
searchable API documentation. For REBOL? I have a user guide that is
out of date with poor indexing and the Official guide which, while
fine for what it covers, isn't a great deal of help in many, many areas.
If you're a script hack under pressure to get a job done and you
have a choice between REBOL and it's non-existent docs, forced to rely
on this list if you hit something you can't trial and error, or Perl
with it's 17-rainforests worth of books, online tutorials, CPAN and
the rest or python (which is getting the same way) or which would you choose,
really?
It'd be nice if it was REBOL, but too often it is more work to make a
good REBOL solution than an adequate Perl one. To say nothing of what
happens when you want a commercial script with Oracle database access,
my boss couldn't stop laughing when I showed her the price for
/command
Until RT do something that justifies techs working to a buget blowing
a fair chunk of it on a lanauge that doesn't do anything substantially
different from the free tools already available the uptake is going to
remain low., especially when getting the most out of the language is
virtually impossible due to the lack of information..
Chris
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[REBOL] Re: What's Up Rebol?
Hi Jim, it's obvious you don't understand REBOL bussines model. Neither do I. And I'm afraid if somebody at RT understands it. (: no don't take me seriously, just joking :) reBolek (REBOL/Demo team) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jim Richards Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 1:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [REBOL] What's Up Rebol? Hello to all, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but your going to get it anyway. I feel a real need to vent. I have been tinkering with and watching the progression of Rebol for approx. two years now. I am a Unix Systems Administrator/Programming Hack. I have worked with Perl, Python and Ruby over the past few years but I keep coming back to Rebol. Why? Because it is a brilliant work of art. There is nothing out there that can compare to Rebols' simplicity and uniqueness. So, I am forced to ask myself a lot of questions. Why aren't more programmers adopting the language? You would think that with all the early adopters of Linux and that movement, that these same folks would be early adopters of Rebol and it's greatness. Why? Why hasn't this happened? Why is the book "Rebol The Official Guide" called The Official Guide? I have purchased and read some of the material in it and think that it should be appropriately named "Database Programming With Rebol". Where's the official guide part? Did I miss it. Am I illiterate. Oh, and then there's "Rebol /Core [User Guide] You know the one without the index. The "Index" you know that indispensable thing as technicians that we refer to on a daily basis. Why hasn't there been any news from Rebol in five months? This is odd, you would think that somebody promoting a product would be seeking to distribute all kinds of news. Should I invest the time and energy in learning Rebol? God knows I want to, but I just keep getting the impression that this one will not be long lived. Every few days I fire up View click around and what do I find, more sites that don't work or sites that just have an email contact. Wow, now isn't that interesting. There are a few good ones though Brett at Codeconscious has done a great job. We need more of you Brett. DocKimbel and his mysql-protocol which I am having a great time with. Well it's time to go, I just felt a real need to vent some of my frustrations. I just get the impression that Rebol is failing at reaching the real future of Rebol, programmers and innovators. Thanks for listening. Have a Great Day Jim Richards -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes. --- Příchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.231 / Virová báze: 112 - datum vydání: 12.2.2001 --- Odchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.231 / Virová báze: 112 - datum vydání: 12.2.2001 -- To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" in the subject, without the quotes.
