Daryl Melham, Shadow Minister for Aboriginal Affairs April 9, 2000 Reporter - Laurie Oakes The Prime Minister's attempts to push Aboriginal issues off the political agenda have blown up in his face. He's already abandoned his own year end deadline for a formal reconciliation between black and white Australia -- he's tried to ignore the row over mandatory sentencing. And now his government has taken an amazingly unsympathetic view of the stolen generation. That was the last straw for some of Mr Howard's MPs and for many Aborigines whose anger has finally boiled over. TRANSCRIPT Well, the Shadow Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Reconciliation, Labor's Daryl Melham, is in our Sydney studio this morning. And here to talk with him, Sunday's political editor, Laurie Oakes. Good morning, Laurie. REPORTER, LAURIE OAKES: Good morning, Jim. Mr Melham, welcome to Sunday. DARYL MELHAM -- SHADOW ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS MINISTER AND SHADOW MINISTER FOR RECONCILIATION: Good morning, Laurie. REPORTER: The Prime Minister's quoted in one of today's newspapers on the Stolen Generations issue as saying Australians don't like being told all the time that they're racists. They don't like being told they should apologise for something they didn't do. What's Labor's response? MELHAM: Well, Laurie, extreme language is not helpful in this debate. Cool heads need to prevail. Emotions are running deep. They unleashed wounds this week -- the hurt resurfaced. The position is, Laurie, that an apology costs nothing. Every state and territory parliament bar the Northern Territory and the House of Reps has apologised. It can be given -- and the government has legal advice to that effect -- without costing the taxpayer a cent. Canada apologised and moved forward. This isn't unique to Australia. So, Labor's view is one that it's a time for healing, it's a time for coming together. The report was insensitive. It unleashed emotions that no one expected, I think, on the government side, particularly those who prepared the report. REPORTER: But what about the attitude of non-Aboriginal Australians? Is the Prime Minister right when he said they don't like being told all the time they're racist, they don't want to say sorry for something they didn't do? MELHAM: Of course they don't like being told that and the fact that they didn't do it doesn't mean they can't say sorry. Laurie, sorry doesn't mean you are responsible. This generation wasn't responsible, that's why they can say sorry. It's empathy; it's ... it just says we understand your hurt, your trauma, the suffering that you're feeling. REPORTER: In another one of today's newspapers, Rod Cameron, who used to be Labor's pollster, is quoted as saying that this issue won't do any damage at all to the government in the electorate -- quite the reverse. Is he right? MELHAM: That's not what it's about, Laurie. I mean, this is about doing the right thing and it's not about, you know, what's popular in the electorate. And sometimes you've got to stand up -- and on this issue we can't walk away. REPORTER: But you've also got to worry about votes and, according to Rod Cameron, where the government needs the votes these issues play very well in the regions and outer suburbs. Is that true? MELHAM: If that's the motive for the government, then it's a pretty sick government and it's a sick country. And my view is if you do the right thing then we can move on. And the right thing is to empathise, to understand that there was hurt, there was trauma. People were taken for the right intentions maybe. I'm one of ten kids, Laurie. If one of my brothers and sisters were taken, it would affect the whole family. Each of us -- brothers, sisters, mothers, aunts, uncles. I mean, it's not about polls, Laurie. If that's what's driving the government, then, you know, it's pretty sick. REPORTER: Well, back in 1997 you criticised the Coalition's record on race in very, very scathing terms. Has the situation improved? MELHAM: What I said, Laurie - I mean, quote me correctly -- my view is the Prime Minister needed to show leadership on the Stolen Generations. It's about uniting Australians. The Governor-General, I think, has been terrific when it comes to the question of reconciliation. We need to send signals; symbols are important. This Prime Minister -- who adores the flag and adores the Queen -- knows the importance of symbols.And what I ... you know, I mean, Laurie, there are good people on all sides. There was a revolt in the government party room this week; morality doesn't reside on one side of politics. REPORTER: But you've said -- quote you accurately -- you said, all that's missing from this debate are white hoods and burning crosses. MELHAM: Laurie , now ... REPORTER: Now do you stand by that. MELHAM: I use colourful language and at that time it was a very nasty debate. REPORTER: And this isn't? MELHAM: This is a nasty debate and that's why cool heads need to prevail. REPORTER: So do you ... MELHAM: We all make mistakes. REPORTER: Do you withdraw from that? MELHAM: We all make mistakes. We all use colourful language. I say that this is not the time for colourful language on either side. REPORTER: So you withdraw from that comment? MELHAM: Laurie, I'm happy to withdraw from that comment. The position is that this is bigger than colourful comments. When I make mistakes, I'll withdraw them. REPORTER: Well, a year earlier, you accused John Howard of playing the race card. Do you hold to that or are you withdrawing that, too? MELHAM: Laurie, Laurie, I didn't accuse John Howard of -- quote me correctly -- I didn't accuse him of playing the race card. I think he's got an attitude problem; I think he's stuck in the '50s and I think he needs to grow. And the position has to be, Laurie, that we've got to move on. People want to move on. The polling that was leaked from the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation shows that people want this behind them. In Canada, they said sorry. They set up a reparations tribunal. They moved on. REPORTER: Well, let me pin you down a bit on how Labor would propose to move on. If Labor wins the next election, what will the Beazley government do for the Stolen Generation? MELHAM: Well, the first act will be an apology. A heart ... an apology hopefully moved by the Prime Minister, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition. I mean, Richard ... REPORTER: On behalf of the parliament or on behalf of the Australian people? MELHAM: On behalf of the Australian people. You see, the Prime Minister represents all of us, not just some of us. Richard Court's parliament was one of the first parliaments to move an apology. Parliaments all over Australia of different political persuasions. Now the problem here is ... I can understand the current generation, they don't want to hear it. But we have things that happened in the past, we've got to own up to them. We've got to be truthful. We've got to be honest so we can go forward. REPORTER: Okay. And you ... a Labor government would set up a compensation fund? MELHAM: It's not about money, Laurie. REPORTER: No. But that is your policy, isn't it, to set up a compensation fund? MELHAM: Our policy is an alternate mechanism. You don't have to go to court necessarily to ... REPORTER: Which ... MELHAM: ... and that ... REPORTER: Which involves a fund. Now, how big would it have to be? MELHAM: Laurie, it'll be a lot cheaper than going to court. At the moment, this government's set up sixty-three million dollar response to the Bringing Them Home report.And what happened?We've now find out [sic] in the first two years only thirteen million was spent. One court case in the Northern Territory has cost ten million dollars and it hasn't finished. Now, Laurie, it's a ... REPORTER: Should we ... MELHAM: ... lot cheaper ... REPORTER: But if you have a policy of setting up a fund and you don't know how big it will have to be -- it's an open-ended budget ... MELHAM: Laurie, the statement of risks in the last Budget by Peter Costello, the Treasurer, had two-thousand-two-hundred cases in the pipeline. They estimated it at hundreds of millions of dollars. This document this week estimated it at three-point-nine-billion dollars. It ... this obsession with compensation - in most instances, it's not about money, it's about bringing people together; healing. It's about allowing people to be counselled for the trauma. Ninety-nine of those in the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission, half of it ... ninety-nine were examined, forty-five had been taken from their parents. It's a lot cheaper - conciliation and counselling. That's what Canada did. This ... the big myth is that defending these cases, litigation, forcing people through the courts is cheaper. REPORTER: Well, let's continue to look forward to what a Labor government would do. If Labor wins the next election, what's its policy on mandatory sentencing? It would definitely legislate to override the Northern Territory and Western Australia? MELHAM: Laurie, we co-sponsored the Brown bill. REPORTER: But is that your policy if you win government? MELHAM: Laurie, that was a unanimous decision of the Shadow Ministry and the Caucus. REPORTER: But that was last week. If you win government, will you legislate to override mandatory sentencing in the Northern Territory and Western Australia? MELHAM: Laurie, I would expect we would. We should because mandatory ... REPORTER: Even if there is a Labor government headed by Geoff Gallop in Western Australia? MELHAM: Laurie, human rights override state rights. In relation to this issue, Kim Beazley's made the position clear. There's a unanimous view of the federal party. Mandatory sentencing ... the government just sat on a report from its own human rights commissioner. Mandatory sentencing doesn't solve the problem. That's the cruel hoax. I mean, sending kids to jail for stealing textas or adults for stealing biscuits. Laurie, you've got to go to the root cause of the problem. It costs a hundred-and-twenty-thousand dollars a year for every child in custody; fifty thousand for every adult. The Labor Party's position is clear. Kim Beazley's on the record: mandatory sentencing for juveniles is out. REPORTER: Okay. You mentioned the Social Justice Commissioner. He has found that the amendments -- the Wik amendments to the Native Title Act -- were discriminatory. The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination also found they're discriminatory. Do you agree? MELHAM: I agree, Laurie. That's what our legal advice said. REPORTER: So ... so would ... MELHAM: The Prime Minister said ... REPORTER: ... a Labor government then ... MELHAM: ... look, Laurie. REPORTER: Would a Labor government move to repeal those amendments? MELHAM: No, Laurie. Not all ... look, Laurie ... REPORTER: No? MELHAM: The Labor ... Laurie ... REPORTER: No? MELHAM: Laurie ... no. Let me answer. All the amendments are not discriminatory. A lot of those amendments, in relation to the registration test - you see, again, this is a side issue. REPORTER: But would you repeal ... MELHAM: Our policy ... REPORTER: ... the ones that are discriminatory? MELHAM: ... our policy ... REPORTER: The ones that Bill Jonas and the UN Committee ruled as discriminatory ... MELHAM: Our ... REPORTER: ... will you repeal those if you win government? MELHAM: Our policy, Laurie, is clear. REPORTER: Well, it's not clear ... MELHAM: That it's anti ... REPORTER: ... at the moment. If you ... MELHAM: No, no. It's ... we're not in favour of discriminatory amendments. What happened was ... REPORTER: So, if you're not in favour of them, why can't you say yes, we'll repeal them? MELHAM: Laurie, we will sit down with all the stakeholders. Our policy is that what we will do is look at these things in the cold hard light of day and in my view ... REPORTER: But, just a minute, I mean, you sit there, you say these things are discriminatory, they're racially discriminatory, but you can't say that you'll repeal them. MELHAM: No, Laurie, not all the amendments are racially discriminatory. REPORTER: But you're saying some of them are. I'm only asking you about those, that you regard as racially discriminatory - will you repeal them? MELHAM: Laurie, in my view, we will sit down in government, with all the stakeholders and they ... and we'll take advice. And, in my view, those things will be looked at. What I've done on this thing is produce proper advice ... REPORTER: But, you see, they ... Labor's built this up into a big issue and they're beating the drum every day. But now you're ... Kim Beazley has said in parliament this is discriminatory, but now you won't even say that you'll repeal it. I mean, that's even worse than we hate the GST, but we'll keep that, isn't it? MELHAM: Laurie, these things ... the Prime Minister, in relation to these things, Laurie, we will do the right thing. And the right thing is we can't undo these. We've said we would sit down - our policy is ... REPORTER: You can't undo something that's racially discriminatory? MELHAM: You can, Laurie. It can be done in a way where there's heat out of the debate. Everyone's backyard is safe. We have said all along that this Act needs improving, it needs amending, there needs to be a proper registration test. And, in relation to that, many of those amendments, we didn't disagree with. In relation to the ones that we voted against, on all these issues, we voted against them in the parliament, that we felt was... were discriminatory. Now, in relation to that, we will look at all of those things and I'm confident that ... REPORTER: Now, let's be clear about this - you actually said in the parliament, in the debate, that these ... this amendment bill is a racist bill. They're your words. MELHAM: That's right. REPORTER: And now you can't say ... MELHAM: We've even proven ... REPORTER: ... you'll fix it up. MELHAM: Laurie, we will fix it up. It ... he ... John Howard ... REPORTER: By repealing the amendments you regard as racially discriminatory? MELHAM: Laurie, we will fix it up. If there's a problem, we've said ... we have said we'll fix it. Now, in relation to this, Laurie, there are aspects in relation to the Social Justice Commissioner's report, the whole lot. We're working it through. Labor, on every occasion has voted against this stuff. REPORTER: Okay, now on mandatory sentencing. The Prime Minister looks like meeting Denis Burke, the Northern Territory Chief Minister, on Tuesday. According to newspapers they're likely to strike a deal involving retaining mandatory sentencing but provisions allowing exceptions for young offenders, where there are extenuating circumstances. Good enough? MELHAM: Laurie, I think you've got to look at the things in terms of our bill, what we want to do is have accountability in terms of the Northern Territory - they get a lot of money for diversionary programs. And my view is that we've got to watch ... I mean, I don't trust the Northern Territory government on this. There's a lot of money ... eighty per cent of taxpayers' money has been spent on the Northern Territory from the Commonwealth and we've got to make sure that it's right. REPORTER: Okay. The Prime Minister has adopted a policy of practical reconciliation; providing money to improve health, education, living conditions. That's laudable, isn't it? MELHAM: Laurie, all those things are the rights that ordinary Australians are entitled to - health, education, the whole lot ... REPORTER: So, he's doing the right thing? MELHAM: In relation to that, Laurie, they're citizenship rights. We support ... REPORTER: Okay ... MELHAM: ... when he does the right thing, we'll support him. There's no problem. REPORTER: But you say they're citizenship rights? MELHAM: They're citizenship rights. REPORTER: Can I ask you - if they're citizenship rights, why is it that in thirteen years of Labor government they weren't fixed up? MELHAM: Laurie, we started from a very low base. We worked hard at it, we try... and we worked it through. And, on every occasion, you had a situation where, you know, we were moving forward from a low base. We made some mistakes, but in relation to it there were improved outcomes. At the end of our thirteen years there were improved outcomes. And my view is that in terms of education, health -- all those things -- that's the right of every citizen of this country, it's not a special right. And there's a problem and it needs to be fixed. REPORTER: Mr Melham, we thank you. MELHAM: Thank you. REPORTER: Back to you, Jim. PRESENTER: Daryl Melham, talking there with Laurie Oakes. ENDS. 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