Re: [recoznet2] Males
For BW, I have no idea what your on about but if you want perosnal therapy may I suggest going to a counsellor/psychologist. Nothing I have raised is about "therapy" so if your having issues with anything I have previuosly stated may be that for you to deal with? Regards, Lance --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Lance This is a site for discussions of reconciliation, which I don't think necessarily involves personal therapy as a priority. I've been involved in too many 'all men are bastards' conversations to take up more space on this list, or more of my time. I'm choosing to let you sort it out. BW - Original Message - From: Lance Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > Please explain your concept of new man Ben Im interested in hearing what you > have to say. > Are you saying men should give up on work ethic? > Are you saying that we should have relationships and not provide for our > women? > Are you saying all women should go out and work and not be nurturer carers? > What are you saying. > Are you denying your innate competitive and challenging role as a male in > society for something not masculine? > Are you calling me a mysogonist because I see things different to you? > Do you honestly believe men have equal access to medical care, custody over > their children, the right to have children. If a women decides to abort her > child what involvement or right does the man have in this? > How does community health supply health services inremote communties, whatis > the gender that deliver those services to remote communities, where are the > men supplying public health information to men? > How much are males consulted in a child protection investigation? > Who are the people that commit violence and why do they do it? What help do > people (mainly men) get when they have violent episodes. How are they helped > to overcome the hurt and pain they suffer. > If your a heterosexual male in this world you are basically blamed for > evrything and if your not blamed your rights are denied or threatened. > Thats the problem with profeminist male attitude they fail their own > sexuality and their own gender. > Im a male Im happy to be male, I once hated being male and blamed them for > all the problems we had insociety...now I see it as it really is...you state > gendered nature of the world ..thats justthe point because it has been > engendered it has lost the plot to see each other as equals. > While ever this continues we will always have marginalisation and trauma > because one mob will always be wanting whatthe other mob has and vice > versa...there will always be the haves and have nots if we continue this way > its the logical conclusion > Why not accept your masculinity and be proud of it and learn to help other > males to do like wise across all cultures and all ethnic barriers. > > > ----- Original Message - > From: Ben Wadham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > > > > Lance > > > > Your experience of the critique of masculinity is not uncommon. Many men > > feel as if they have no role in society any more and that feminism, > amongst > > other critiques are to blame. When men complain about how they are worse > off > > than women, that they have it bad, that they are alway the brunt of unfair > > criticism it certainly tells us something. One thing, I believe is that it > > is hard to accept change. The men's movement, from my experience remains a > > strongly misogynist movement of men who feel this way. Yes, they may be > > experiencing grief, but it is a grief of dislocation, of being stuck > > somewhere between being the traditional male and the expectations of what > it > > means to be a man today. It is, from my perspective, ridiculous to think > > that men (as a group) are disadvantaged. You blame the system, and whether > > you believe it or not, this is a system created in the image of man as an > > affirmation of the cultural ideals of masculinity (and women are part of > > this - Maggie Thatcher was called the Iron Lady) > > > > To talk about the problems of 'dominant' masculinity is not to be > > mistaken for calling all men bastards, but to recognise that there is a > set > > of social relations (of which men have greater access to) that are > > historically and culturally based upon control and domination. I've felt > the > > competitive, adversarial, controlling hand of masculinity all my life, as > a > > man, growing up in a western capitalist patriarchal environment. I don't > > hate > > men, but challenge the gendered nature of our world. > > > > It seems to men that if you want to work for reconciliation then you would > > challenge the meanings of white people and whiteness. If you want to > > challenge se
Re: [recoznet2] Males
re 'If your a heterosexual male in this world you are basically blamed for evrything and if your not blamed your rights are denied or threatened. Thats the problem with profeminist male attitude they fail their own sexuality and their own gender. Why not accept your masculinity and be proud of it and learn to help other males to do like wise across all cultures and all ethnic barriers' lance - this is what i meant when i said - living in the 'form' of maleness - are u saying above: hetero males have blotted their copy books and are now held accountable profeminist men not masculine - so are they gay and feminine? proud hetero men wanted to globally convert homo males if this is so, yr 'maleness' is reduced to a gaze at an incompetent 'penis' - unfortunately if not - please explain - but maybe off list as we are dominating a lot :) susanne --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Please explain your concept of new man Ben Im interested in hearing what you have to say. Are you saying men should give up on work ethic? Are you saying that we should have relationships and not provide for our women? Are you saying all women should go out and work and not be nurturer carers? What are you saying. Are you denying your innate competitive and challenging role as a male in society for something not masculine? Are you calling me a mysogonist because I see things different to you? Do you honestly believe men have equal access to medical care, custody over their children, the right to have children. If a women decides to abort her child what involvement or right does the man have in this? How does community health supply health services inremote communties, whatis the gender that deliver those services to remote communities, where are the men supplying public health information to men? How much are males consulted in a child protection investigation? Who are the people that commit violence and why do they do it? What help do people (mainly men) get when they have violent episodes. How are they helped to overcome the hurt and pain they suffer. If your a heterosexual male in this world you are basically blamed for evrything and if your not blamed your rights are denied or threatened. Thats the problem with profeminist male attitude they fail their own sexuality and their own gender. Im a male Im happy to be male, I once hated being male and blamed them for all the problems we had insociety...now I see it as it really is...you state gendered nature of the world ..thats justthe point because it has been engendered it has lost the plot to see each other as equals. While ever this continues we will always have marginalisation and trauma because one mob will always be wanting whatthe other mob has and vice versa...there will always be the haves and have nots if we continue this way its the logical conclusion Why not accept your masculinity and be proud of it and learn to help other males to do like wise across all cultures and all ethnic barriers. - Original Message - From: Ben Wadham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > Lance > > Your experience of the critique of masculinity is not uncommon. Many men > feel as if they have no role in society any more and that feminism, amongst > other critiques are to blame. When men complain about how they are worse off > than women, that they have it bad, that they are alway the brunt of unfair > criticism it certainly tells us something. One thing, I believe is that it > is hard to accept change. The men's movement, from my experience remains a > strongly misogynist movement of men who feel this way. Yes, they may be > experiencing grief, but it is a grief of dislocation, of being stuck > somewhere between being the traditional male and the expectations of what it > means to be a man today. It is, from my perspective, ridiculous to think > that men (as a group) are disadvantaged. You blame the system, and whether > you believe it or not, this is a system created in the image of man as an > affirmation of the cultural ideals of masculinity (and women are part of > this - Maggie Thatcher was called the Iron Lady) > > To talk about the problems of 'dominant' masculinity is not to be > mistaken for calling all men bastards, but to recognise that there is a set > of social relations (of which men have greater access to) that are > historically and culturally based upon control and domination. I've felt the > competitive, adversarial, controlling hand of masculinity all my life, as a > man, growing up in a western capitalist patriarchal environment. I don't > hate > men, but challenge the gendered nature of our world. > > It seems to men that if you want to work for reconciliation then you would > challenge the meanings of white people and whiteness. If you want to > challenge sexism then challenge masculinity (at this point in time). In both > cases neither means hating all whites or hating all men, but recognising > that dominance in our culture has certain histories. > > Bring on the new man! > > Ben > > > - Original Message - > From: Lance Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:34 PM > Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > > > > Ben, > > the finite amount of white men in the corporate world (fro rememberthat > > corporate only makes upa very finiteamount of thepopulatiuon run that > world. > > They are NOT all white men - Im tired of the rhetoric blaming white men > for > > evrything I think its absolute bull shit. Ifthis was so whywould be dying > > earlier (much earlier) why would be committing s
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Lance Your experience of the critique of masculinity is not uncommon. Many men feel as if they have no role in society any more and that feminism, amongst other critiques are to blame. When men complain about how they are worse off than women, that they have it bad, that they are alway the brunt of unfair criticism it certainly tells us something. One thing, I believe is that it is hard to accept change. The men's movement, from my experience remains a strongly misogynist movement of men who feel this way. Yes, they may be experiencing grief, but it is a grief of dislocation, of being stuck somewhere between being the traditional male and the expectations of what it means to be a man today. It is, from my perspective, ridiculous to think that men (as a group) are disadvantaged. You blame the system, and whether you believe it or not, this is a system created in the image of man as an affirmation of the cultural ideals of masculinity (and women are part of this - Maggie Thatcher was called the Iron Lady) To talk about the problems of 'dominant' masculinity is not to be mistaken for calling all men bastards, but to recognise that there is a set of social relations (of which men have greater access to) that are historically and culturally based upon control and domination. I've felt the competitive, adversarial, controlling hand of masculinity all my life, as a man, growing up in a western capitalist patriarchal environment. I don't hate men, but challenge the gendered nature of our world. It seems to men that if you want to work for reconciliation then you would challenge the meanings of white people and whiteness. If you want to challenge sexism then challenge masculinity (at this point in time). In both cases neither means hating all whites or hating all men, but recognising that dominance in our culture has certain histories. Bring on the new man! Ben - Original Message - From: Lance Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > Ben, > the finite amount of white men in the corporate world (fro rememberthat > corporate only makes upa very finiteamount of thepopulatiuon run that world. > They are NOT all white men - Im tired of the rhetoric blaming white men for > evrything I think its absolute bull shit. Ifthis was so whywould be dying > earlier (much earlier) why would be committing suicide at a significantly > higher rate, why are we basically being told we should be testubes. > No sorry I have just spent three years in Social Science academia and I > dontagree with what is being espoused what so ever. You only need to look at > the statistics to see the reality of the situation. > Instead of blaming a gender for the inhumanity to man and generalising what > about getting back to some reality and doing someting about the problems in > society. > The blame needs to lay fairly and squarely (if anywhere at all) on the > political system of beliefs that we have developed. Until we have a truly > socially democratic system nothing will change. > > Regards,Lance > (Stop blaming males society) > > - Original Message - > From: Ben Wadham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 9:55 AM > Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > > > > Lance > > > > As a white man it is the culture of masculinity that I live in which > causes > > me a lot of grief. Certainly, Aboriginal men are highly disadvantaged, no > > question, but as I've grown up its been the highly competitive, > aggressive, > > adversarial culture of masculinity that has made me want to work for > change. > > I think changing men is a very important challenge and one that would > > improve social justice across the globe. White men remain in charge of the > > western world and its globalising forces, its predominantly white men and > > other men who run the multinational corporate sector. And women get caught > > up in this, but it isnt their birthright as it is for most men. Stamp out > > hegemonic masculinity - that's my motto! To say that males in our culture > > don't have voice is like saying the colour white has no meaning in our > > culture. > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Lance Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:38 PM > > Subject: [recoznet2] Males > > > > > > > Trudy, > > > If I was female I would be asking what about the females wheres their > > > voice?. Would you see this as a problem too? > > > I dont have a problem with asking for males to speak up, because in the > >
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Ben, the finite amount of white men in the corporate world (fro rememberthat corporate only makes upa very finiteamount of thepopulatiuon run that world. They are NOT all white men - Im tired of the rhetoric blaming white men for evrything I think its absolute bull shit. Ifthis was so whywould be dying earlier (much earlier) why would be committing suicide at a significantly higher rate, why are we basically being told we should be testubes. No sorry I have just spent three years in Social Science academia and I dontagree with what is being espoused what so ever. You only need to look at the statistics to see the reality of the situation. Instead of blaming a gender for the inhumanity to man and generalising what about getting back to some reality and doing someting about the problems in society. The blame needs to lay fairly and squarely (if anywhere at all) on the political system of beliefs that we have developed. Until we have a truly socially democratic system nothing will change. Regards,Lance (Stop blaming males society) - Original Message - From: Ben Wadham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males > Lance > > As a white man it is the culture of masculinity that I live in which causes > me a lot of grief. Certainly, Aboriginal men are highly disadvantaged, no > question, but as I've grown up its been the highly competitive, aggressive, > adversarial culture of masculinity that has made me want to work for change. > I think changing men is a very important challenge and one that would > improve social justice across the globe. White men remain in charge of the > western world and its globalising forces, its predominantly white men and > other men who run the multinational corporate sector. And women get caught > up in this, but it isnt their birthright as it is for most men. Stamp out > hegemonic masculinity - that's my motto! To say that males in our culture > don't have voice is like saying the colour white has no meaning in our > culture. > > Ben > > > > - Original Message - > From: Lance Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:38 PM > Subject: [recoznet2] Males > > > > Trudy, > > If I was female I would be asking what about the females wheres their > > voice?. Would you see this as a problem too? > > I dont have a problem with asking for males to speak up, because in the > > field of human endeavours they are few and far between. That doesn't > > discount your gender from commentingmy personal aim however is to > > encourage males to speak up. > > I didn't start the gender wars however I'm a victim of it, ...now I want > to > > be a survivorMy aim in life is existing for men thats my language > thats > > my state of being. Ive spent quite a of time now looking at the > statistics > > in this country and males are not doing well at and especially aboriginal > > males so when ever I talk about things on issues I will push for the > plight > > of males, because thats what I know about. > > This is the same thing women have done with feminist thought. I make no > > apology for this. > > When aboriginal men regain their sense of dignity and self - worth in > > society then we will have some equity happening. > > Sorry if this upsets you Trudy but until its accepted and theres' > something > > done about Im not about to change my view on this. > > As a male I dont think you or any feminist can see me as an equal person. > > Because you blame my gender for everything that is wrong in society, this > > hurts us as males and because we dont have the same communication style > that > > you do we are already in a position of subservience. > > You will notice that I talk about my own gender because I cannot be > female. > > I'm male and I come from that perpective. > > Regards, > > Lance. > > > > --- > > RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived > at http://www.mail-archive.com/ > > To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the > body > > of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce > > This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without > permission from the > > copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and > research under the "fair > > use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be > distributed further
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Lance As a white man it is the culture of masculinity that I live in which causes me a lot of grief. Certainly, Aboriginal men are highly disadvantaged, no question, but as I've grown up its been the highly competitive, aggressive, adversarial culture of masculinity that has made me want to work for change. I think changing men is a very important challenge and one that would improve social justice across the globe. White men remain in charge of the western world and its globalising forces, its predominantly white men and other men who run the multinational corporate sector. And women get caught up in this, but it isnt their birthright as it is for most men. Stamp out hegemonic masculinity - that's my motto! To say that males in our culture don't have voice is like saying the colour white has no meaning in our culture. Ben - Original Message - From: Lance Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:38 PM Subject: [recoznet2] Males > Trudy, > If I was female I would be asking what about the females wheres their > voice?. Would you see this as a problem too? > I dont have a problem with asking for males to speak up, because in the > field of human endeavours they are few and far between. That doesn't > discount your gender from commentingmy personal aim however is to > encourage males to speak up. > I didn't start the gender wars however I'm a victim of it, ...now I want to > be a survivorMy aim in life is existing for men thats my language thats > my state of being. Ive spent quite a of time now looking at the statistics > in this country and males are not doing well at and especially aboriginal > males so when ever I talk about things on issues I will push for the plight > of males, because thats what I know about. > This is the same thing women have done with feminist thought. I make no > apology for this. > When aboriginal men regain their sense of dignity and self - worth in > society then we will have some equity happening. > Sorry if this upsets you Trudy but until its accepted and theres' something > done about Im not about to change my view on this. > As a male I dont think you or any feminist can see me as an equal person. > Because you blame my gender for everything that is wrong in society, this > hurts us as males and because we dont have the same communication style that > you do we are already in a position of subservience. > You will notice that I talk about my own gender because I cannot be female. > I'm male and I come from that perpective. > Regards, > Lance. > > --- > RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ > To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body > of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce > This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the > copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair > use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without > permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." > > RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ > --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Lance Kelly wrote: > Trudy, > If I was female I would be asking what about the females wheres their > voice?. Would you see this as a problem too? > I dont have a problem with asking for males to speak up, because in the > field of human endeavours they are few and far between. That doesn't > discount your gender from commentingmy personal aim however is to > encourage males to speak up. > I didn't start the gender wars however I'm a victim of it, ...now I want to > be a survivorMy aim in life is existing for men thats my language thats > my state of being. Ive spent quite a of time now looking at the statistics > in this country and males are not doing well at and especially aboriginal > males so when ever I talk about things on issues I will push for the plight > of males, because thats what I know about. > This is the same thing women have done with feminist thought. I make no > apology for this. > When aboriginal men regain their sense of dignity and self - worth in > society then we will have some equity happening. > Sorry if this upsets you Trudy but until its accepted and theres' something > done about Im not about to change my view on this. > As a male I dont think you or any feminist can see me as an equal person. > Because you blame my gender for everything that is wrong in society, this > hurts us as males and because we dont have the same communication style that > you do we are already in a position of subservience. > You will notice that I talk about my own gender because I cannot be female. > I'm male and I come from that perpective. > Regards, > Lance. When did I blame your gender for everything that is wrong in society? I also don't subscribe to gender 'wars'. Men and women do not live in a vacuum and dignity for either is not possible until they both have it and that goes for Aboriginal people as well as non-Aboriginal people. Trudy --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
[recoznet2] Males
Trudy, If I was female I would be asking what about the females wheres their voice?. Would you see this as a problem too? I dont have a problem with asking for males to speak up, because in the field of human endeavours they are few and far between. That doesn't discount your gender from commentingmy personal aim however is to encourage males to speak up. I didn't start the gender wars however I'm a victim of it, ...now I want to be a survivorMy aim in life is existing for men thats my language thats my state of being. Ive spent quite a of time now looking at the statistics in this country and males are not doing well at and especially aboriginal males so when ever I talk about things on issues I will push for the plight of males, because thats what I know about. This is the same thing women have done with feminist thought. I make no apology for this. When aboriginal men regain their sense of dignity and self - worth in society then we will have some equity happening. Sorry if this upsets you Trudy but until its accepted and theres' something done about Im not about to change my view on this. As a male I dont think you or any feminist can see me as an equal person. Because you blame my gender for everything that is wrong in society, this hurts us as males and because we dont have the same communication style that you do we are already in a position of subservience. You will notice that I talk about my own gender because I cannot be female. I'm male and I come from that perpective. Regards, Lance. --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
