Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
Rod Hagen wrote:
I've been reflecting a little about the referendum over the last couple of
days. One thing that strikes me is that the real problem is that , unlike
some of the republics of yore, the real issues in Australia are NOT related
to our system of government. Our oppressors are not the King , Queen or
the system of government, as they were when the French, Americans, Russians
or Kenyans became republics.
It may be one explanation why the public doesn't feel involved.
Rather , those calling the shots lie elsewhere. The media barons, the
multi-nationals, the financial institutions , the communication companies,
the mega pastoralists, the huge mining companies - these are the people
who make the decisions that really affect us. These are the contemporary
Kings, Queens, Earls and Barons. Governments perhaps help them to do their
job for them, but they are really merely pawns rather than the power. It
doesn't really make the slightest difference whether you have a directly
elected president, a parliamentarily approved president or a king or queen.
They all simply provide a "technical" solution to the idea of sovereignty
at a time when the "nation" is less relevant than ever before.
I agree with you, Rod. I've been calling it 'corporate feudalism' for the last 15
years. (It started much
earlier in North America.)
If "the people" are to really rule ("Res publica") then these are the
matters which must be dealt with. But no referendum, regardless of who
promulgates it, is really likely to address such matters.
We will not be allowed to. If these matters are to be addressed they have to do so
underground. Seeing the
way they have been trying to get and control the Net, it may be a struggle there too.
If we were really to address the critical human issues of this hunk of land
between the Indian and Pacific Oceans we would be looking to limit the
manner in which the big players (today's equivalent of the aristocracy)
control our lives. Instead they seem to become ever more pervasive as the
debate about side issues flows on.
Bread and circuses. It is an old tactic but it still works very well.
This perhaps explains the lack of passion about the current proposals in
the eyes of most people. The current storm in a tea cup is unlikely to have
any real impact on the real human problems of contemporary life, whoever we
are. We will not overthrow the shackles that constrain us by voting for any
of the alternatives currently offered.
I think you're right there. David Mallouf on Lateline said something similar. He
pointed out that in other
republics the push had come from below - a revolution. This republic is coming from
the top and is being
imposed without engaging the grassroots. The people's hearts and minds are not
involved and therefore they
see no need for any urgency.
You will get far more passion about disappearing jobs, services and how, somehow, the
good economic times
seem to be only happening for some.
Perhaps, if we become a "republic" then we will be more disposed to
consider such matters in greater depth. The longer we go on "fighting in
the Captain's tower" about the nonsense of monarchy, direct election or
parliamentary selection the less likely we are to move on to the real
issues. Perhaps not. But at least we will have got this ridiculous
diversion out of the way.
I'm afraid I can't be as optimistic. The Corporate Feudalists will give us more bread
and circuses if we
even look like dealing with them. So, I don't think we should wait to deal with real
issues because they
will make sure we never lack for distractions.
Trudy
Cheers
Rod
Rod Hagen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hurstbridge, Victoria, Australia
WWWhttp://www.netspace.net.au/~rodhagen
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Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
Sorry, Trudy - just presumed because it was with the article. BTW Any chance of a last-minute conversion? Only one more sleep to go! Tim It wasn't Rob Sitch but me;-) Trudy tdunlop wrote: Interesting that Rob Sitch quotes Ghandi in the article below, India being one of the countries that appoints rather than directly elects its Presidents. Tim === "There go my people, I am their leader - I must follow." -- Mahatma Gandhi THE AGE Reflections on a referendum ROB SITCH Friday 5 November 1999 --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
No, I'm afraid not. Ah, well. I guess we can have all the arguments again at the next referendum - if I'm not too arthritic to type by then ;-) Did you happen to see Lateline either last night or today? It was a very good discussion and brought up many points as to why even though 91% (in the latest poll) expressed a wish for a republic, this model isn't likely to make it tomorrow. Yes I did see it. I'm afraid I find Leonie Kramer unbearable and thought most of what she said was self-serving garbage. Still, that's just me being unfair probably. I take your wider point, though. It seems it will go down, though I haven't given up hope entirely. Maybe enough of all those republicans out there will find it just too hard to vote for the Queen once they're in the booth? We'll see I guess Tim The Gandhi quote was not about a republic but about leadership... Trudy tdunlop wrote: Sorry, Trudy - just presumed because it was with the article. BTW Any chance of a last-minute conversion? Only one more sleep to go! Tim It wasn't Rob Sitch but me;-) Trudy tdunlop wrote: Interesting that Rob Sitch quotes Ghandi in the article below, India being one of the countries that appoints rather than directly elects its Presidents. Tim === "There go my people, I am their leader - I must follow." -- Mahatma Gandhi THE AGE Reflections on a referendum ROB SITCH Friday 5 November 1999 --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
tdunlop wrote: No, I'm afraid not. Ah, well. I guess we can have all the arguments again at the next referendum - if I'm not too arthritic to type by then ;-) Well, it's not stopping me, so you have nothing to worry about. ;-) Did you happen to see Lateline either last night or today? It was a very good discussion and brought up many points as to why even though 91% (in the latest poll) expressed a wish for a republic, this model isn't likely to make it tomorrow. Yes I did see it. I'm afraid I find Leonie Kramer unbearable and thought most of what she said was self-serving garbage. Well, we agree on that at least...;-) I was impressed with David Mallouf's contributions. Still, that's just me being unfair probably. I take your wider point, though. It seems it will go down, though I haven't given up hope entirely. Maybe enough of all those republicans out there will find it just too hard to vote for the Queen once they're in the booth? We'll see I guess If that was the problem then the result would be different. Most are not voting 'for' the Queen but against the model... Trudy --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
Hi Trudy Doesn't all this remind you of a magicians sleight of hand. The name of the game appears to be misdirection. I am wondering what we are going to find out about after all this furor is over. What did get pushed through parliament while we looked elsewhere? At 03:24 PM 11/5/99 +1100, you wrote: >No, I'm afraid not. > Peter (Possum)McGrath Phone: +61 07 3844 6887 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepade:http://www.tals.qut.edu.au/staff/peter/index.htm "Never complain about stupidity it is natures way of keeping the gene pool clean" --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
Maybe enough of all those republicans out there will find it just too hard to vote for the Queen once they're in the booth? We'll see I guess If that was the problem then the result would be different. Most are not voting 'for' the Queen but against the model... Trudy Ah, but the net effect is that the Queen (and Howard and her other supporters) win. Really can't see them letting go of their victory lightly (or quickly). (Sorry, couldn't help myself ;-)) Tim --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
tdunlop wrote: Maybe enough of all those republicans out there will find it just too hard to vote for the Queen once they're in the booth? We'll see I guess If that was the problem then the result would be different. Most are not voting 'for' the Queen but against the model... Trudy Ah, but the net effect is that the Queen (and Howard and her other supporters) win. Really can't see them letting go of their victory lightly (or quickly). Wasn't it the 'yes' side who discounted 'in effect' when Howard used it? Can't have it both ways... (Sorry, couldn't help myself ;-)) Neither could I... ;-) Trudy --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
Ah, but the net effect is that the Queen (and Howard and her other supporters) win. Really can't see them letting go of their victory lightly (or quickly). Wasn't it the 'yes' side who discounted 'in effect' when Howard used it? Can't have it both ways... (Sorry, couldn't help myself ;-)) Neither could I... ;-) Trudy But we can have it both ways, can't we? Isn't that the whole argument? We can vote No AND get a Republic? Tim --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
Peter McGrath wrote: Hi Trudy Doesn't all this remind you of a magicians sleight of hand. The name of the game appears to be misdirection. I am wondering what we are going to find out about after all this furor is over. I think we'll be in for a few surprises. I have visions of the ship of state springing many leaks... What did get pushed through parliament while we looked elsewhere? Good question. If the papers hadn't been campaigning so hard they might have been able to tell us. ;-) Trudy Peter (Possum)McGrath Phone: +61 07 3844 6887 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepade:http://www.tals.qut.edu.au/staff/peter/index.htm "Never complain about stupidity it is natures way of keeping the gene pool clean" --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
tdunlop wrote: Ah, but the net effect is that the Queen (and Howard and her other supporters) win. Really can't see them letting go of their victory lightly (or quickly). Wasn't it the 'yes' side who discounted 'in effect' when Howard used it? Can't have it both ways... (Sorry, couldn't help myself ;-)) Neither could I... ;-) Trudy But we can have it both ways, can't we? Isn't that the whole argument? We can vote No AND get a Republic? Tim Well, I guess we'll find out, won't we? ;-) --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] The Age: Reflections on a referendum
At 04:31 PM 5/11/99, Peter McGrath wrote:
Hi Trudy
Doesn't all this remind you of a magicians sleight of hand. The
name of the game appears to be misdirection. I am wondering what we are
going to find out about after all this furor is over.
What did get pushed through parliament while we looked elsewhere?
I've been reflecting a little about the referendum over the last couple of
days. One thing that strikes me is that the real problem is that , unlike
some of the republics of yore, the real issues in Australia are NOT related
to our system of government. Our oppressors are not the King , Queen or
the system of government, as they were when the French, Americans, Russians
or Kenyans became republics.
Rather , those calling the shots lie elsewhere. The media barons, the
multi-nationals, the financial institutions , the communication companies,
the mega pastoralists, the huge mining companies - these are the people
who make the decisions that really affect us. These are the contemporary
Kings, Queens, Earls and Barons. Governments perhaps help them to do their
job for them, but they are really merely pawns rather than the power. It
doesn't really make the slightest difference whether you have a directly
elected president, a parliamentarily approved president or a king or queen.
They all simply provide a "technical" solution to the idea of sovereignty
at a time when the "nation" is less relevant than ever before.
If "the people" are to really rule ("Res publica") then these are the
matters which must be dealt with. But no referendum, regardless of who
promulgates it, is really likely to address such matters.
If we were really to address the critical human issues of this hunk of land
between the Indian and Pacific Oceans we would be looking to limit the
manner in which the big players (today's equivalent of the aristocracy)
control our lives. Instead they seem to become ever more pervasive as the
debate about side issues flows on.
This perhaps explains the lack of passion about the current proposals in
the eyes of most people. The current storm in a tea cup is unlikely to have
any real impact on the real human problems of contemporary life, whoever we
are. We will not overthrow the shackles that constrain us by voting for any
of the alternatives currently offered.
Perhaps, if we become a "republic" then we will be more disposed to
consider such matters in greater depth. The longer we go on "fighting in
the Captain's tower" about the nonsense of monarchy, direct election or
parliamentary selection the less likely we are to move on to the real
issues. Perhaps not. But at least we will have got this ridiculous
diversion out of the way.
Cheers
Rod
Rod Hagen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hurstbridge, Victoria, Australia
WWWhttp://www.netspace.net.au/~rodhagen
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