Re: Jesus for President?
Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine. To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that. I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church and state here? Susan Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote: Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus name. Jesus for President? http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725 Enjoy! Chaplain Klingenschmitt WND Exclusive Commentary Jesus for president? Posted: May 17, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Gordon James Klingenschmitt OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus' name? I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton. When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did she protect her evangelical chaplain? No. I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary about my interview with Jewish Week newspaper http://www.persuade.tv/againstgoliath/JewishWeekStewartAin3Jun05.pdf, telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish sailor. Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish service members? I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a letter of inquiry to the Navy http://www.persuade.tv/againstgoliath/Senators.pdf for me that same day. But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also properly punished for praying in Jesus' name and how chaplains really should pray non-sectarian prayers in public, my sources witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action /against me/. Opposing a House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith http://www.persuade.tv/Frenzy6/WarnerSpeech2.pdf, Clinton personally attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the Pentagon censor our prayers. Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better. While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for praying in uniform. First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of the chaplain situation, when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to his office http://www.persuade.tv/frenzy10/ChapsToObama.pdf, and his staff acknowledged placing them on his desk. Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, If you are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are treated equally. http://thechurchreport.com/news_article.php?day=16mon=04yr=2007 Apparently, Obama believes God's Ten Commandments are unfair since they might hurt people's feelings (as if his pro-abortion laws don't hurt the feelings of the unborn). Would President Obama appoint judges who oppose Roy Moore and would jackhammer the 44 displays of the Ten Commandments from our U.S. Supreme Court? He still won't debate Judge Moore on the subject http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/04/judge_roy_moore_says_obama_nee.php, yet Barrack Hussein Obama campaigns like a good Christian, soft-pedaling his Muslim upbringing. Conversely, Sen. Sam Brownback votes like he says he believes. When I first came to Washington, D.C., Sen. Brownback welcomed me to speak at his weekly Values Action Team meeting, where I enlisted dozens of pro-family groups and senators to vote for allowing prayers in Jesus' name. Brownback personally wrote President Bush to help chaplains, and when our legislation came to the Senate, Sam Brownback again reminded Values Action Team members to stand up for religious liberty. (But he'd never brag about this; he's too humble.) If elected, I've no doubt President Brownback would immediately sign an executive order protecting all chaplains' right to pray according to their faith
Re: Jesus for President?
Jesus for President? Why would He allow Himself to be demoted? He's already King of kings, Lord of lords and has ALL power in Heaven and on earth. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com; Recovering Republican... Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ. -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri, 18 May 2007 7:47 AM Subject: Re: Jesus for President? Clearly he neither sees a violationa, nor believes that there should be a separation. Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law and Public Policy Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208-3494 518-445-3386 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/07 4:10 AM Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine. To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that. I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church and state here? Susan Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote: Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus name. Jesus for President? http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725 Enjoy! Chaplain Klingenschmitt WND Exclusive Commentary Jesus for president? Posted: May 17, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Gordon James Klingenschmitt OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus' name? I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton. When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did she protect her evangelical chaplain? No. I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary about my interview with Jewish Week newspaper http://www.persuade.tv/againstgoliath/JewishWeekStewartAin3Jun05.pdf, telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish sailor. Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish service members? I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a letter of inquiry to the Navy http://www.persuade.tv/againstgoliath/Senators.pdf for me that same day. But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also properly punished for praying in Jesus' name and how chaplains really should pray non-sectarian prayers in public, my sources witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action /against me/. Opposing a House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith http://www.persuade.tv/Frenzy6/WarnerSpeech2.pdf, Clinton personally attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the Pentagon censor our prayers. Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better. While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for praying in uniform. First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of the chaplain situation, when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to his office http://www.persuade.tv/frenzy10/ChapsToObama.pdf, and his staff acknowledged placing them on his desk. Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, If you are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are treated equally. http://thechurchreport.com/news_article.php?day=16mon=04yr=2007 Apparently, Obama believes God's Ten Commandments are unfair since they might hurt people's feelings (as if his pro-abortion laws don't hurt the feelings of the unborn). Would President Obama appoint judges who oppose Roy Moore and would jackhammer the 44
Re: Jesus for President?
Great questions, Susan and Paul On the contrary, true separation would require the military chaplain prays the same way his civilian bishop requires (even in public), NOT the way the commanding officer orders him to pray. When a commander orders a chaplain to censor his public prayers, violate his religious orders, and pray to the government's civic god or face government punishment, (as I faced), certainly the government has established (and enforced) a non-sectarian state religion, and forced it on all chaplains and all Sailors of diverse faiths. The better solution is to take turns and let each pray according to the dictates of his own conscience, without enforcing conformity to one government-sanitized faith expression. Federal law agrees with me, and since 1860 has protected chaplains rights, today codified in 10 USC 6031: An officer in the chaplain corps may conduct public worship according to the manner and forms of the church of which he is a member. And the Supreme Court has already ruled against government enforced non-sectarian prayer content in 1991 Lee vs. Weisman: The government may not establish an official or civic religion as a means of avoiding the establishment of a religion with more specific creeds...The State's role did not end with the decision to include a prayer and with the choice of clergyman. Principal Lee provided Rabbi Gutterman with a copy of the Guidelines for Civic Occasions and advised him that his prayers should be nonsectarian. Through these means, the principal directed and controlled the content of the prayers. Even if the only sanction for ignoring the instructions were that the rabbi would not be invited back, we think no religious representative who valued his or her continued reputation and effectiveness in the community would incur the State's displeasure in this regard. It is a cornerstone principle of our Establishment Clause jurisprudence that it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government, Engel v. Vitale, (1962), and that is what the school officials attempted to do. Susan, Paul, do you disagree with the statute, or with the Supreme Court's interpretation? Incidentally, somebody asked if I'm still a chaplain, and the answer is yes, because my church ordained me for the ministry of chaplaincyalthough I'm no longer a lieutenant and no longer an officerhaving been honorably discharged after 15.5 years. I pray in Jesus name, Chaplain Klingenschmitt Paul Finkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clearly he neither sees a violationa, nor believes that there should be a separation. Paul Finkelman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/07 4:10 AM Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine. To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that. I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church and state here? Susan Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote: Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus name. Jesus for President? http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725 Enjoy! Chaplain Klingenschmitt WND Exclusive Commentary Jesus for president? Posted: May 17, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Gordon James Klingenschmitt OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus' name? I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton. When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did she protect her evangelical chaplain? No. I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary
Jesus for President?
Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus name. Jesus for President? http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725 Enjoy! Chaplain Klingenschmitt - - Jesus for president? - Posted: May 17, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Gordon James Klingenschmitt OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly in Jesus' name? I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton. When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did she protect her evangelical chaplain? No. I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary about my interview with Jewish Week newspaper, telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish sailor. Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish service members? I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a letter of inquiry to the Navy for me that same day. But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also properly punished for praying in Jesus' name and how chaplains really should pray non-sectarian prayers in public, my sources witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action against me. Opposing a House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith, Clinton personally attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the Pentagon censor our prayers. Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better. While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for praying in uniform. First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of the chaplain situation, when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to his office, and his staff acknowledged placing them on his desk. Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, If you are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are treated equally. Apparently, Obama believes God's Ten Commandments are unfair since they might hurt people's feelings (as if his pro-abortion laws don't hurt the feelings of the unborn). Would President Obama appoint judges who oppose Roy Moore and would jackhammer the 44 displays of the Ten Commandments from our U.S. Supreme Court? He still won't debate Judge Moore on the subject, yet Barrack Hussein Obama campaigns like a good Christian, soft-pedaling his Muslim upbringing. Conversely, Sen. Sam Brownback votes like he says he believes. When I first came to Washington, D.C., Sen. Brownback welcomed me to speak at his weekly Values Action Team meeting, where I enlisted dozens of pro-family groups and senators to vote for allowing prayers in Jesus' name. Brownback personally wrote President Bush to help chaplains, and when our legislation came to the Senate, Sam Brownback again reminded Values Action Team members to stand up for religious liberty. (But he'd never brag about this; he's too humble.) If elected, I've no doubt President Brownback would immediately sign an executive order protecting all chaplains' right to pray according to their faith. Presidential candidate Duncan Hunter also went to bat for chaplains. Leading 75 members of Congress with Walter B. Jones, Rep. Hunter (then chairman of the House Armed Services Committee) personally wrote and passed a House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith. But when his bill got blocked by liberal senators, did he quit? No. Fighting to the last, Duncan Hunter helped negotiate a compromise with the Pentagon, forcing them to rescind their bad Navy prayer policy, even letting Air Force chaplains pray publicly in Jesus' name. As commander in chief, I've no doubt Duncan Hunter would force the Pentagon to respect the 1860 law and once again let chaplains pray freely. Will our next commander in chief protect chaplains? Although Jesus isn't running for president, I remember his warning to discern true prophets from false: By their fruit ye shall know them. The fruit of these candidates Clinton, Obama, Brownback, Hunter may
