RE: "Religion of peace"?
Eugene's response moves me to reveal a secret heretical thought I have harbored for some time now-that the religion clauses (and much else in the constitution) were simply not written with anything like modern life in mind, that government has become so complex that the simple rules the founders lay down don't work, and we need something else. But I have not got a clue what that better thing might be--and I am certain that there is no social consensus on what that something might be. Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:02 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: "Religion of peace"? Marc makes a good point, but say that there is a dispute about whether the particular strain of, say, Islam -- or for that matter, Christianity -- to which the defendant has converted is a "religion of peace" or a religion that allows or even suggests violence that U.S. law would condemn. What evidence would the state and the defendant introduce? Statements of coreligionists? Religious experts who would testify about what they think the "real" meaning of the religion is (since we know that for most religions, there will be some people who can interpret it as countenancing violence)? Would we feel comfortable having juries resolve these questions? Indeed, prison officials do sometimes evaluate whether certain religious publications advocate violence. But I had thought that the prison cases have been seen as an unfortunate though necessary departure from traditional norms of government action. Would it be proper to extend them to death penalty sentencing phases, where a person's life would turn in part on a jury's evaluation of whether "a church advocates violence"? Eugene Marc Stern writes: So activity in amnesty international counts ,but not in a religious group? Why can't the state prove that a church advocates violence to rebut a mitigating showing of membership in the Church of Creator .Prison officials make that showing all the time both under RLUIPA and under O"'Lone and the Constituion.. The problem all around with religion Clause analysis in prisons (and other total institutions such as children's homes) is that the government exercise more power over every aspect of life than it can in "civilian" applications which no doubt were at the forefront of the framers minds. Marc Stern _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Evidence of religious conversion at a death penaltysentencinghearing But would the conversion to the World Church of the Creator (white supremacist religion in prison and on the web) also count? I think not, which means the courts cannot say that conversion to religion per se indicates good behavior. They need to stick to the objective facts of good behavior. The appeal to Christianity is an attempt to bring into the case mom and apple pie, but it can't be a legitimate criterion, under the rule against sect preferences in both Religion Clauses. Marci I assume that the point is not that Christianity has special status, but that the conversion to a system of religious belief is (or so a jury might find) indicative of a likelihood of redemption (in a secular sense) and htat the person need not be executed to protect society. I would imagine that the same would be true if a convict showed devotion to some secular equivalent. Under the court's cap[ital punishment rules ,post arrest conduct in jail-even after conviction and on retrial-- is relevant as a mitigating factor. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Religion of peace"?
Except for the Society of Friends, the Mennonites and a few other pietistic faiths, please tell me what religion out there qualifies as a "religion of peace"? Pual Finkelman Volokh, Eugene wrote: Marc makes a good point, but say that there is a dispute about whether the particular strain of, say, Islam -- or for that matter, Christianity -- to which the defendant has converted is a "religion of peace" or a religion that allows or even suggests violence that U.S. law would condemn. What evidence would the state and the defendant introduce? Statements of coreligionists? Religious experts who would testify about what they think the "real" meaning of the religion is (since we know that for most religions, there will be some people who can interpret it as countenancing violence)? Would we feel comfortable having juries resolve these questions? Indeed, prison officials do sometimes evaluate whether certain religious publications advocate violence. But I had thought that the prison cases have been seen as an unfortunate though necessary departure from traditional norms of government action. Would it be proper to extend them to death penalty sentencing phases, where a person's life would turn in part on a jury's evaluation of whether "a church advocates violence"? Eugene Marc Stern writes: So activity in amnesty international counts ,but not in a religious group? Why canât the state prove that a church advocates violence to rebut a mitigating showing of membership in the Church of Creator .Prison officials make that showing all the time both under RLUIPA and under OââLone and the Constituion.. The problem all around with religion Clause analysis in prisons (and other total institutions such as childrenâs homes) is that the government exercise more power over every aspect of life than it can in âcivilianâ applications which no doubt were at the forefront of the framers minds. Marc Stern _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Evidence of religious conversion at a death penaltysentencinghearing But would the conversion to the World Church of the Creator (white supremacist religion in prison and on the web) also count? I think not, which means the courts cannot say that conversion to religion per se indicates good behavior. They need to stick to the objective facts of good behavior. The appeal to Christianity is an attempt to bring into the case mom and apple pie, but it can't be a legitimate criterion, under the rule against sect preferences in both Religion Clauses. Marci I assume that the point is not that Christianity has special status, but that the conversion to a system of religious belief is (or so a jury might find) indicative of a likelihood of redemption (in a secular sense) and htat the person need not be executed to protect society. I would imagine that the same would be true if a convict showed devotion to some secular equivalent. Under the court's cap[ital punishment rules ,post arrest conduct in jail-even after conviction and on retrial-- is relevant as a mitigating factor. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Religion of peace"?
Buddhism. On Friday, November 12, 2004, at 12:26 PM, Paul Finkelman wrote: Except for the Society of Friends, the Mennonites and a few other pietistic faiths, please tell me what religion out there qualifies as a "religion of peace"? Pual Finkelman -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ "Politics hates a vacuum. If it isn't filled with hope, someone will fill it with fear." Naomi Klein ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Religion of peace"?
ok, that's three, maybe; Seems like the Japanese in WWII put a new twist on Buddhism as a pacifist faith, but maybe I missed something there. Steven Jamar wrote: Buddhism. On Friday, November 12, 2004, at 12:26 PM, Paul Finkelman wrote: Except for the Society of Friends, the Mennonites and a few other pietistic faiths, please tell me what religion out there qualifies as a "religion of peace"? Pual Finkelman -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Religion of peace"? .:.
Title: Re: "Religion of peace"? .:. You say religion of peace. Perhaps you mean religion of pacifism (not the same, see Brish Quakers circa 1939). Thus rephrased, point taken. Richard Menard Sidley Austin Brown & Wood 202-736-8016 (office) 202-246-7408 (mobile) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Fri Nov 12 12:26:45 2004 Subject: Re: "Religion of peace"? .:. Except for the Society of Friends, the Mennonites and a few other pietistic faiths, please tell me what religion out there qualifies as a "religion of peace"? Pual Finkelman Volokh, Eugene wrote: > Marc makes a good point, but say that there is a dispute about whether the particular strain of, say, Islam -- or for that matter, Christianity -- to which the defendant has converted is a "religion of peace" or a religion that allows or even suggests violence that U.S. law would condemn. What evidence would the state and the defendant introduce? Statements of coreligionists? Religious experts who would testify about what they think the "real" meaning of the religion is (since we know that for most religions, there will be some people who can interpret it as countenancing violence)? Would we feel comfortable having juries resolve these questions? > > Indeed, prison officials do sometimes evaluate whether certain religious publications advocate violence. But I had thought that the prison cases have been seen as an unfortunate though necessary departure from traditional norms of government action. Would it be proper to extend them to death penalty sentencing phases, where a person's life would turn in part on a jury's evaluation of whether "a church advocates violence"? > > Eugene > > Marc Stern writes: > > > So activity in amnesty international counts ,but not in a religious group? Why can't the state prove that a church advocates violence to rebut a mitigating showing of membership in the Church of Creator .Prison officials make that showing all the time both under RLUIPA and under O"'Lone and the Constituion.. > The problem all around with religion Clause analysis in prisons (and other total institutions such as children's homes) is that the government exercise more power over every aspect of life than it can in "civilian" applications which no doubt were at the forefront of the framers minds. > > Marc Stern > > > > > _ > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:10 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Evidence of religious conversion at a death penaltysentencinghearing > > > > But would the conversion to the World Church of the Creator (white supremacist religion in prison and on the web) also count? I think not, which means the courts cannot say that conversion to religion per se indicates good behavior. They need to stick to the objective facts of good behavior. The appeal to Christianity is an attempt to bring into the case mom and apple pie, but it can't be a legitimate criterion, under the rule against sect preferences in both Religion Clauses. > > Marci > > > > I assume that the point is not that Christianity has special status, but > that the conversion to a system of religious belief is (or so a jury might > find) indicative of a likelihood of redemption (in a secular sense) and htat > the person need not be executed to protect society. > I would imagine that the same would be true if a convict showed devotion to > some secular equivalent. Under the court's cap[ital punishment rules ,post > arrest conduct in jail-even after conviction and on retrial-- is relevant as > a mitigating factor. > > > > > > ___ > To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax
Re: "Religion of peace"?
Well, of course, authentic, biblical Christianity is a religion of peace. The proof of that lies somewhat outside of the contours of this list. Jim "Do not refrain to rescue those being dragged away to slaughter" Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Religion of peace"?
Which is what I guess Quakers try to practice and that most other Christians don't try to practice, or at least have not been very successful at it in the lastg 1800 years or so. Paul Finkelman Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > Well, of course, authentic, biblical Christianity is a > religion of peace. > The proof of that lies somewhat outside of the contours of > this list. > > Jim "Do not refrain to rescue those being dragged away to > slaughter" > Henderson > Senior Counsel > ACLJ > > Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law Univ. of Tulsa College of Law 2120 East 4th Place Tulsa OK 74104-3189 Phone: 918-631-3706 Fax:918-631-2194 ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Religion of peace"?
I am not aware of any form of Christianity that is not “biblical.” -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: "Religion of peace"? Well, of course, authentic, biblical Christianity is a religion of peace. The proof of that lies somewhat outside of the contours of this list. Jim "Do not refrain to rescue those being dragged away to slaughter" Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
