Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
In a message dated 7/29/10 10:40:22 AM, hamilto...@aol.com writes: > ... a psychological counselor cannot be a competent counselor if they > reject the science of medicine on homosexuality, which appears to be what is > happening here. > Until 1973, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders categorized homosexuality as a mental disorder. And my impression is that political pressure had as much to do with that change as scientific evidence, which was just beginning to come out :-) at that time. Presumably some on this list (had they been professors in 1972) would have said that a person who was lesbian or gay and did not believe that he or she was suffering from a mental disorder should not be licensed as a therapist, because he or she rejected the science of medicine on homosexuality. I hope we would all agree, in hindsight, that that would have been unfortunate and unnecessary. Some of today's scientific truths will be tomorrow's benighted ignorance. I'm not suggesting any particular ones; I don't have a crystal ball. Of course we can't operate today by tomorrow's knowledge, but awareness that there surely will be different knowledge tomorrow suggests that tolerance of differences is not a bad choice for today. Art Spitzer ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
Yes, though there is also a question of the professional's intent to use the professional relationship as a basis for proselytizing beliefs. I know we are well beyond the case that started this thread, but it is a legitimate question, no? Marci In a message dated 7/29/2010 11:29:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, stevenja...@gmail.com writes: Doesn't the test have to be does the person understand the professional standards and can and will the person conform her conduct to them? It can't be based on belief. Some doctors are young earthers and do not believe in evolution. They can still treat germs and understand and conform their behavior to the fact of evolution in the form of germ resistance to antibiotics. Some doctors believe in the power of faith to heal but still conform their behavior to the medical norms of setting a broken leg, stitching up a laceration, and prescribing appropriate drugs for medical conditions. It cannot be about the beliefs of a person, even with respect to a psychotherapist believing homosexuality is a sin, so long as when she is treating patients that does not enter into the treatment, and if she can't do that, then she should not treat that patient. Not all therapists treat all kinds of problems. Some, indeed, many if not most, specialize in one way or another and refer people to others when they themselves are not competent to treat the person for whatever reason, including they just don't like the patient. Steve ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
Doesn't the test have to be does the person understand the professional standards and can and will the person conform her conduct to them? It can't be based on belief. Some doctors are young earthers and do not believe in evolution. They can still treat germs and understand and conform their behavior to the fact of evolution in the form of germ resistance to antibiotics. Some doctors believe in the power of faith to heal but still conform their behavior to the medical norms of setting a broken leg, stitching up a laceration, and prescribing appropriate drugs for medical conditions. It cannot be about the beliefs of a person, even with respect to a psychotherapist believing homosexuality is a sin, so long as when she is treating patients that does not enter into the treatment, and if she can't do that, then she should not treat that patient. Not all therapists treat all kinds of problems. Some, indeed, many if not most, specialize in one way or another and refer people to others when they themselves are not competent to treat the person for whatever reason, including they just don't like the patient. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Associate Director, Institute of Intellectual Property and Social Justice http://iipsj.org Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ "Enduring high school is not the same as growing up Jewish in Prague or fighting in the French Resistance. I had no solid basis for being cool in that existential motorcycle James Dean absurdist chain-smoking hero sort of way, so I gave up being cool and settled for being pleasant." Garrison Keillor ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
Yes, I believe my legal interpretation is correct, and I routinely criticize the legal academy for its orthodoxy especially in matters of constitutional law. Group-think is not a good thing in the academic universe. But we are not talking about academic freedom here. We are talking about qualifications for certification into a profession. And the issue here is harm to the general public by the watering down of professional standards or the Balkanization of standards. I am willing to go out on a limb here and say that faith-healing believers should not be permitted to obtain a medical degree and then present themselves to the public as doctors. Similarly, a psychological counselor cannot be a competent counselor if they reject the science of medicine on homosexuality, which appears to be what is happening here. (Similarly, no science department is going to give a Ph.D. in Biology to someone who uses faith to reject the science of evolution.) Obviously, someone who has beliefs counter to the profession and never expresses them is going to get through. That is just a pragmatic issue. But someone who publicly makes their views known and holds views contrary to the standards set by the accrediting the community cannot expect to receive the group's imprimatur. One element that has not yet been mentioned in this discussion is that many people are "pastoral counselors." They hold themselves out as such. If someone does not ascribe to the profession's standards, they are not necessarily forestalled from being counselors. They just can't have the imprimatur of the profession. My primary concern here is fraud on the public and harm to the public generally. If a parent is concerned about a teen-ager's sexual identity and self-esteem and seeking a counselor for him or her, it would be troubling to think that there are credentialed counselors out there that might well use the counseling relationship to further their anti-homosexual religious beliefs. Unless there is an enforceable requirement (and I think this is a far second-best choice to neutral, across-the-board standards) that the counselor tell the public of his or her objections to medical/professional standards, this is an intolerable social harm. This is definitely part of the culture wars, but it is not secularism against embattled religious believers. The war here is identical to the issue in CLS v Martinez, where the student religious group sought not the right to speak or believe or gather, but the right to have the University's imprimatur on its activities. There is another element here that no one else may be considering. In the clergy abuse arena until recently, religious leaders typically sent victims to designated individuals for "counseling." Often, the counselors were just the church's lawyers or other clergy who "counseled" against going to the authorities and against seeking outside help. They also "counseled" that the image of the church to outsiders was more important than the victim's or the family's needs. They shamed the victims into silence. This Balkanization of counseling led to coverup in multiple religious institutions, extraordinary suffering for the victims and their families, and an internal cycle of abuse that has hurt the religious institutions themselves. Marci In a message dated 7/28/2010 4:21:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, l...@runquist.com writes: I did not see that she was saying that people should act according to her beliefs; she said she would work with the person to work their issues out themselves, but that IF ASKED, she would not lie about what she believed. BTW, are the school authorities not saying that all its counselors must believe the same as they believe? What makes those beliefs more legitimate or more worthy of protection than her beliefs? Isn't the first amendment designed to let everyone maintain and act in accordance with their own beliefs? It is clear, Marci, that you think that your beliefs are correct, and that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Should she not be able to think the same thing about her beliefs? Lisa ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
I did not see that she was saying that people should act according to her beliefs; she said she would work with the person to work their issues out themselves, but that IF ASKED, she would not lie about what she believed. BTW, are the school authorities not saying that all its counselors must believe the same as they believe? What makes those beliefs more legitimate or more worthy of protection than her beliefs? Isn't the first amendment designed to let everyone maintain and act in accordance with their own beliefs? It is clear, Marci, that you think that your beliefs are correct, and that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Should she not be able to think the same thing about her beliefs? Lisa On 7/28/2010 12:16 PM, hamilto...@aol.com wrote: How can someone with that belief be capable of providing competent psychological counseling to anyone other than a fellow believer? It is particularly troubling that someone would defend the right of a person to be a psychological counselor if one believes that others should act in accordance with the counselor's beliefs? Marci In a message dated 7/28/2010 1:10:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aebrownst...@ucdavis.edu writes: In fact, the "standard" that she is said to be violating is her subjective belief that her moral views are true. She was apparently told that it is unethical for her to be " not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are equally valid as your own" and for her to "think certain people should act in accordance with your moral values, and/or that your beliefs are in some way superior to those of others." (emphasis in original) -- Lisa A. Runquist Runquist& Associates Attorneys at Law 17554 Community Street Northridge, CA 91325 (818)609-7761 (818)609-7794 (fax) l...@runquist.com http://www.runquist.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
But we all have beliefs that we feel others should act in accordance with. Some are widely accepted, others are not. You may believe that it is wrong to divorce your spouse when there are small children in the home simply because you are unhappy. I may believe that it is wrong to operate a business to maximize profits at the expense of one's employees. We both believe that persons who act inconsistently with our beliefs have done something immoral. Are we now ineligible to be counselors, lawyers or doctors? From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] on behalf of hamilto...@aol.com [hamilto...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:16 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un... How can someone with that belief be capable of providing competent psychological counseling to anyone other than a fellow believer? It is particularly troubling that someone would defend the right of a person to be a psychological counselor if one believes that others should act in accordance with the counselor's beliefs? Marci In a message dated 7/28/2010 1:10:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aebrownst...@ucdavis.edu writes: In fact, the "standard" that she is said to be violating is her subjective belief that her moral views are true. She was apparently told that it is unethical for her to be " not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are equally valid as your own" and for her to "think certain people should act in accordance with your moral values, and/or that your beliefs are in some way superior to those of others." (emphasis in original) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she un...
How can someone with that belief be capable of providing competent psychological counseling to anyone other than a fellow believer? It is particularly troubling that someone would defend the right of a person to be a psychological counselor if one believes that others should act in accordance with the counselor's beliefs? Marci In a message dated 7/28/2010 1:10:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aebrownst...@ucdavis.edu writes: In fact, the "standard" that she is said to be violating is her subjective belief that her moral views are true. She was apparently told that it is unethical for her to be " not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are equally valid as your own" and for her to "think certain people should act in accordance with your moral values, and/or that your beliefs are in some way superior to those of others." (emphasis in original) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
