Re: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
IIRC QC was RCA trademark and CG was GE trademark for CTCSS. Johnson used ToneGuard for their trademark. 73 Glenn WB4UIV At 05:39 PM 12/15/06, you wrote: >I always thought it was known as "QC" for Quiet Channel or "CG" for Channel >Guard. > > > >-- Original Message -- >Received: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:43:53 AM CST >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal > > > > >I guess it is time again for a bit of clarification for the > > apparent newbies: > > > >PL ... is a registered trademark of Motorola Inc. properly > > known as Private Line. > > > >A very polite way of saying the same thing here is > > Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System or CTCSS. > > > >The following is for all but specfically Mike Morris as well: > >The reference to hz is also incorrect ... as is an abbreviation > > of Hertz, a persons last name. Specifically should be Hz. > > > >In my opinion, is a slight flaw in the voice operation on > > 144.39 MHz below ... the FCC requires you to monitor the > > frequency in a non-CTCSS mode prior to transmitting. > > And, if you have your 144.39 MHz receiver locked up on > > CTCSS decode, your receiver won't hear the packet > > operations ... > > > >Thank you for your time, > >Neil McKie - WA6KLA > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:58 pm > > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mystery Signal > > > > > In case I confused anybody, this is what I am refering > > > to with APRS and a 100hz tone --- > > > > > > VOICE ALERT: This simply means that you do not turn > > > the audio down on > > > 144.39, but instead leave it at high volume and then > > > simply set CTCSS > > > tone 100 to mute the speaker. This way, you dont hear > > > any packets, but > > > ANYONE can call you with VOICE on 144.39 to alert you > > > by using PL 100. > > > You will rarely use this, and only use it to tell > > > someone to QSY to another > > > voice channel, but it is one way of assuring that > > > ANYONE running APRS in > > > simplex range of you can ALWAYS be contacted with a > > > voice call... > > > > > > You wont hear any packets except maybe one or two > > > when another VOICE- > > > ALERT mobile is in range (about 3 miles or so). But > > > even then, he is only > > > beaconing once every 2 minutes and so it is not > > > bothersome at all.. > > > In fact, it is nice to hear when someone is nearby! > > > Its like a free radar > > > for other mobile APRS operators that are in simplex > > > range AND listening. > > > > > > --- > > > > > > --- Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Doh, this just hit me. It would most definitely be > > > > an > > > > APRS setup due to the 100hz subtone. In APRS you set > > > > the subtone to 100 so you can do voice alert. Man, > > > > why > > > > didn't I think of that part when this was first > > > > mentioned. > > > > > > > > Sorry for being a bit late on that but I figured I'd > > > > toss my 2 cents on this. > > > > > > > > Max... > > > > > > > > > Public Information Officer -- St. Louis & Suburban Radio Club > > > K0AZV - Amateur > > > WPWH-650 GMRS > > > St. Louis County ARES > > > St. Ann MO EM48tr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
I always thought it was known as "QC" for Quiet Channel or "CG" for Channel Guard. -- Original Message -- Received: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:43:53 AM CST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal > >I guess it is time again for a bit of clarification for the > apparent newbies: > >PL ... is a registered trademark of Motorola Inc. properly > known as Private Line. > >A very polite way of saying the same thing here is > Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System or CTCSS. > >The following is for all but specfically Mike Morris as well: >The reference to hz is also incorrect ... as is an abbreviation > of Hertz, a persons last name. Specifically should be Hz. > >In my opinion, is a slight flaw in the voice operation on > 144.39 MHz below ... the FCC requires you to monitor the > frequency in a non-CTCSS mode prior to transmitting. > And, if you have your 144.39 MHz receiver locked up on > CTCSS decode, your receiver won't hear the packet > operations ... > >Thank you for your time, >Neil McKie - WA6KLA > > > > > - Original Message - > From: Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:58 pm > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mystery Signal > > > In case I confused anybody, this is what I am refering > > to with APRS and a 100hz tone --- > > > > VOICE ALERT: This simply means that you do not turn > > the audio down on > > 144.39, but instead leave it at high volume and then > > simply set CTCSS > > tone 100 to mute the speaker. This way, you dont hear > > any packets, but > > ANYONE can call you with VOICE on 144.39 to alert you > > by using PL 100. > > You will rarely use this, and only use it to tell > > someone to QSY to another > > voice channel, but it is one way of assuring that > > ANYONE running APRS in > > simplex range of you can ALWAYS be contacted with a > > voice call... > > > > You wont hear any packets except maybe one or two > > when another VOICE- > > ALERT mobile is in range (about 3 miles or so). But > > even then, he is only > > beaconing once every 2 minutes and so it is not > > bothersome at all.. > > In fact, it is nice to hear when someone is nearby! > > Its like a free radar > > for other mobile APRS operators that are in simplex > > range AND listening. > > > > --- > > > > --- Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Doh, this just hit me. It would most definitely be > > > an > > > APRS setup due to the 100hz subtone. In APRS you set > > > the subtone to 100 so you can do voice alert. Man, > > > why > > > didn't I think of that part when this was first > > > mentioned. > > > > > > Sorry for being a bit late on that but I figured I'd > > > toss my 2 cents on this. > > > > > > Max... > > > > > > Public Information Officer -- St. Louis & Suburban Radio Club > > K0AZV - Amateur > > WPWH-650 GMRS > > St. Louis County ARES > > St. Ann MO EM48tr > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In addition to Neil's comment - you would screw up the APRS operation > if you do not listen and prevent your own APRS broadcast from going out > during another APRS transmission. You could key up on top of the > ongoing transmission and both your own and the other packets would be > QRMed. > > 73 - Jim W5ZIT Not to continue to belabor how packet works on RB here too much, but packet being a network and not a point-to-point system has always suffered from the "hidden RF node" problem where : Station A & B can hear each other. Station B & C can hear each other. Station A & C transmit at the same time and collide at the receiver at station B. Multiply this "effect" by the number of nodes in a particular geographic area, and things get mighty interesting (and conjested) pretty quick. Someone did the math once to show the maximum density available in an area before contention completely clogged the network, but I have no idea where that whitepaper is today. No amount of "listening" will ever fix that on Packet. Add in that some packet stations use a standard COR type squelch circuit and others use a soft-squelch where the radio's squelch circuit is always open and the packet engine or TNC simply listens for tones, and the problem gets a little more complex. A system using soft-squelch won't even "hear" a voice transmission and will just key up over the top of one. Our club did a VHF packet digital-regenerative repeater many years ago with about 150 miles coverage that worked well to completely eradicate this problem -- any node that could access the repeater would be guaranteed to be heard by the others. It removed all the variables of antenna, power, etc. You either got your bits to the repeater or you didn't. We shut it down a few years ago due to lack of use and site costs. So while I wholeheartedly understand all the sentiments expressed by those who said that keying up for a quick voice call on a simplex packet frequency could be a) problematic due to unintentional interference or b) against the FCC rules for monitoring before transmitting... In practice it really just doesn't matter. Collisions happen. Fact of life on Packet. The nodes that need to get information to another location will continue retrying in a connected state, and in non-guaranteed delivery systems like APRS where the method is "fire and forget", you'll just miss a couple of packets of information -- a known operational lost packet issue of the network protocol itself, inherent in the system. Since the practice of monitoring on 144.39 with 100 Hz CTCSS tone was first recommended (as best as I can tell) by Bob Bruninga who created the APRS software as a specifically good configuration for a Kenwood D-700 (which he helped Kenwood develop and licensed code to), I don't think anyone's all that concerned about a brief voice QSO to QSY somewhere else on 144.39. In fact, there's been some discussion that 144.39 is the most widely monitored VHF frequency in the U.S. due to APRS stations all being on it, moreso than 146.52. How many of us leave a radio on 146.52 for travellers or other assistance 24/7? How many of us have APRS stations on 144.39 24 hours a day? (Actually I have neither right now, but that's how the argument goes...) By the way, to keep this on-topic, I tossed a note to Bob about that mystery packet. He said it really didn't look like it was in any APRS format he recognized, and wasn't sure what it actually was. I got sucked into this whole thing just from remembering my former experiences with TCP/IP over Packet radio in the early 1990's. Back then there was no APRS, and Packet BBS's were on every channel from 145.01 through 145.09 and people even had to go down into the 144's, annoying the satellite crowd. Some of us fired up TCP/IP over Packet using the venerable old 44.x.x.x network around here on 145.07 and the BBS owner on .07 and the local "packet association" were always up in arms because our systems used much bigger packets than the standards used for BBS access, and "hogged" the channel. Many meetings, and fire and brimstone conversations both on the air and off, and a few years later -- packet's popularity had dropped off so dramatically no one cared anymore. APRS then hit the scene and worked so well, after everyone decided on 144.39, that everyone but the die-hards were doing APRS, and the conversations and complaints and everything else (and most of the utility of the large network that had been grown in our area) started to dwindle. Today around here, there isn't much other than some dedicated folks running VHF to HF gateways and an FBB BBS or two... it's fairly dead. Nothing like it was in 1991-1993. The Emergency Services crowd always wanted us to keep our high-level packet repeater on-air, stating that they would use it in emergencies, but in practice, they might use it for 5 minutes to establi
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
In addition to Neil's comment - you would screw up the APRS operation if you do not listen and prevent your own APRS broadcast from going out during another APRS transmission. You could key up on top of the ongoing transmission and both your own and the other packets would be QRMed. 73 - Jim W5ZIT -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:34 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal In my opinion, is a slight flaw in the voice operation on 144.39 MHz below ... the FCC requires you to monitor the frequency in a non-CTCSS mode prior to transmitting. And, if you have your 144.39 MHz receiver locked up on CTCSS decode, your receiver won't hear the packet operations ... Thank you for your time, Neil McKie - WA6KLA - Original Message - From: Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mystery Signal > In case I confused anybody, this is what I am refering > to with APRS and a 100hz tone --- > > VOICE ALERT: This simply means that you do not turn > the audio down on > 144.39, but instead leave it at high volume and then > simply set CTCSS > tone 100 to mute the speaker. This way, you dont hear > any packets, but > ANYONE can call you with VOICE on 144.39 to alert you > by using PL 100. > You will rarely use this, and only use it to tell > someone to QSY to another > voice channel, but it is one way of assuring that > ANYONE running APRS in > simplex range of you can ALWAYS be contacted with a > voice call... > > You wont hear any packets except maybe one or two > when another VOICE- > ALERT mobile is in range (about 3 miles or so). But > even then, he is only > beaconing once every 2 minutes and so it is not > bothersome at all.. > In fact, it is nice to hear when someone is nearby! > Its like a free radar > for other mobile APRS operators that are in simplex > range AND listening. > > --- > > --- Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Doh, this just hit me. It would most definitely be > > an > > APRS setup due to the 100hz subtone. In APRS you set > > the subtone to 100 so you can do voice alert. Man, > > why > > didn't I think of that part when this was first > > mentioned. > > > > Sorry for being a bit late on that but I figured I'd > > toss my 2 cents on this. > > > > Max... > > > Public Information Officer -- St. Louis & Suburban Radio Club > K0AZV - Amateur > WPWH-650 GMRS > St. Louis County ARES > St. Ann MO EM48tr > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
At 12/14/2006 08:34 AM, you wrote: > > In my opinion, is a slight flaw in the voice operation on > 144.39 MHz below ... the FCC requires you to monitor the > frequency in a non-CTCSS mode prior to transmitting. Not quite. The FCC requires you to make sure the frequency is not in use before TXing, the idea being you don't interfere with communications in progress on said frequency. Packet, by design, automatically monitors the frequency so as to minimize "collisions". If on occasion you accidentally stomp on a packet, no biggie: it automatically retries a few seconds later. So occasional CTCSS-protected voice transmissions on 144.39 wouldn't really be a problem, although an extended rag-chew would be. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
Neil, As always, good post. Hey, stay dry out there if you can! Paul -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:34 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal I guess it is time again for a bit of clarification for the apparent newbies: PL ... is a registered trademark of Motorola Inc. properly known as Private Line. A very polite way of saying the same thing here is Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System or CTCSS. The following is for all but specfically Mike Morris as well: The reference to hz is also incorrect ... as is an abbreviation of Hertz, a persons last name. Specifically should be Hz. In my opinion, is a slight flaw in the voice operation on 144.39 MHz below ... the FCC requires you to monitor the frequency in a non-CTCSS mode prior to transmitting. And, if you have your 144.39 MHz receiver locked up on CTCSS decode, your receiver won't hear the packet operations ... Thank you for your time, Neil McKie - WA6KLA - Original Message - From: Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mystery Signal > In case I confused anybody, this is what I am refering > to with APRS and a 100hz tone --- > > VOICE ALERT: This simply means that you do not turn > the audio down on > 144.39, but instead leave it at high volume and then > simply set CTCSS > tone 100 to mute the speaker. This way, you dont hear > any packets, but > ANYONE can call you with VOICE on 144.39 to alert you > by using PL 100. > You will rarely use this, and only use it to tell > someone to QSY to another > voice channel, but it is one way of assuring that > ANYONE running APRS in > simplex range of you can ALWAYS be contacted with a > voice call... > > You wont hear any packets except maybe one or two > when another VOICE- > ALERT mobile is in range (about 3 miles or so). But > even then, he is only > beaconing once every 2 minutes and so it is not > bothersome at all.. > In fact, it is nice to hear when someone is nearby! > Its like a free radar > for other mobile APRS operators that are in simplex > range AND listening. > > --- > > --- Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Doh, this just hit me. It would most definitely be > > an > > APRS setup due to the 100hz subtone. In APRS you set > > the subtone to 100 so you can do voice alert. Man, > > why > > didn't I think of that part when this was first > > mentioned. > > > > Sorry for being a bit late on that but I figured I'd > > toss my 2 cents on this. > > > > Max... > > > Public Information Officer -- St. Louis & Suburban Radio Club > K0AZV - Amateur > WPWH-650 GMRS > St. Louis County ARES > St. Ann MO EM48tr > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Newbie Information Time - Mystery Signal
I guess it is time again for a bit of clarification for the apparent newbies: PL ... is a registered trademark of Motorola Inc. properly known as Private Line. A very polite way of saying the same thing here is Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System or CTCSS. The following is for all but specfically Mike Morris as well: The reference to hz is also incorrect ... as is an abbreviation of Hertz, a persons last name. Specifically should be Hz. In my opinion, is a slight flaw in the voice operation on 144.39 MHz below ... the FCC requires you to monitor the frequency in a non-CTCSS mode prior to transmitting. And, if you have your 144.39 MHz receiver locked up on CTCSS decode, your receiver won't hear the packet operations ... Thank you for your time, Neil McKie - WA6KLA - Original Message - From: Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mystery Signal > In case I confused anybody, this is what I am refering > to with APRS and a 100hz tone --- > > VOICE ALERT: This simply means that you do not turn > the audio down on > 144.39, but instead leave it at high volume and then > simply set CTCSS > tone 100 to mute the speaker. This way, you dont hear > any packets, but > ANYONE can call you with VOICE on 144.39 to alert you > by using PL 100. > You will rarely use this, and only use it to tell > someone to QSY to another > voice channel, but it is one way of assuring that > ANYONE running APRS in > simplex range of you can ALWAYS be contacted with a > voice call... > > You wont hear any packets except maybe one or two > when another VOICE- > ALERT mobile is in range (about 3 miles or so). But > even then, he is only > beaconing once every 2 minutes and so it is not > bothersome at all.. > In fact, it is nice to hear when someone is nearby! > Its like a free radar > for other mobile APRS operators that are in simplex > range AND listening. > > --- > > --- Max Slover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Doh, this just hit me. It would most definitely be > > an > > APRS setup due to the 100hz subtone. In APRS you set > > the subtone to 100 so you can do voice alert. Man, > > why > > didn't I think of that part when this was first > > mentioned. > > > > Sorry for being a bit late on that but I figured I'd > > toss my 2 cents on this. > > > > Max... > > > Public Information Officer -- St. Louis & Suburban Radio Club > K0AZV - Amateur > WPWH-650 GMRS > St. Louis County ARES > St. Ann MO EM48tr > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
