Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Ron, When you wrote "I am interested in the parameters of the D-Star vs analog test." Weak Signal D-STAR versus FM.mp3' file located within the 'D-STAR Digital Audio' directory of the Illinoisdigitalham yahoo group? If so, please forward a copy of your findings to me as well. The only reason that I have not yet posted that recording to the http://www.hamradio-dv.org web site is for that very reason, I am unable to validate it's parameters. Like I had stated earlier in a previous e-mail, I was in contact with KC5ZRQ via E-mail until I had answered his question as to which recording I was referring to. After that I never received a reply again, and my following e-mails had never bounced. Paul Metzger K6EH
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
What test are referring to? If you find some documented test results of a real field test then please let us know otherwise I for one don't know what test you are referring to. And what do you mean "had hoped the D-Star rigs could be changed to analog"? D-Star is a digital audio format, analog audio is, well, analog audio. What exactly are you asking here because it still doesn't make sense. All of Icom's D-Star capable radios are also analog capable. Icom claims they compress the D-Star voice into a 6Khz channel (their data capabilities use more bandwidth). A comparison of two-way radio systems to HDTV or Direct TV isn't going to work as they are all generally different media (two-way is terrestrial, Direct TV is satellite, and HDTV is often cable). Yes, analog signals with path noise are often still discernible and digital audio is often there or not. I suggest you read up on modern voice encoding/decoding methods for a better understanding. Remember, D-Star is an open, published standard. Icom America offers a link to the JARL documentation as does the JARL. Gary "Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator" wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for the many responses, but guess no one had the answer to my > question. > > So I will try again. > > I am interested in the parameters of the D-Star vs analog test. It > seems the testees had 2 receivers at a site, one D-Star and one > conviental analog and made a transmission on each for the recording. > > My question was the rigs/power/antennas/etc the same on both. A test > of 10 W with D-Star and analog 1 watt HT does not address the issue. I > had hoped the D-Star rigs could be changed to analog making the only > difference the modulation, rx and tx. > > Digial has invaded so much with much improved results. Easy to see > with Direct-TV or digital cable or fiber, as I have now, and it is > worlds improvement over the old analog. Same with HDTV over NTSC TV > and not just because higher resolution. However, many 2-way radio > systems complain about digital with variations in signals digital often > has problems. With analog one might be noise, but can get the > transmission, but as many have said with digital you are there or not, > no in between. > > Just wanted to know if the D-Star and analog test parameters. > > 73, ron, n9ee/r
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator wrote: > My question was the rigs/power/antennas/etc the same on both. A test > of 10 W with D-Star and analog 1 watt HT does not address the issue. > I had hoped the D-Star rigs could be changed to analog making the only > difference the modulation, rx and tx. Test lab setup: radio, attenuator, noise generator, combiner, radio. Run the FM through the test, noting noise levels, etc. Then do the same with D-Star. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a bit longer." -- Henry Kissinger
[Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Hi all, Thanks for the many responses, but guess no one had the answer to my question. So I will try again. I am interested in the parameters of the D-Star vs analog test. It seems the testees had 2 receivers at a site, one D-Star and one conviental analog and made a transmission on each for the recording. My question was the rigs/power/antennas/etc the same on both. A test of 10 W with D-Star and analog 1 watt HT does not address the issue. I had hoped the D-Star rigs could be changed to analog making the only difference the modulation, rx and tx. Digial has invaded so much with much improved results. Easy to see with Direct-TV or digital cable or fiber, as I have now, and it is worlds improvement over the old analog. Same with HDTV over NTSC TV and not just because higher resolution. However, many 2-way radio systems complain about digital with variations in signals digital often has problems. With analog one might be noise, but can get the transmission, but as many have said with digital you are there or not, no in between. Just wanted to know if the D-Star and analog test parameters. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > hi all, > > In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by > WB9WZB. Most impressive test. > > Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels > and antennas used in the test??? > > 73, ron, n9ee/r >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
On May 30, 2007, at 8:50 PM, mch wrote: > Actually correction for half of the 'other 2400' and the other 1200 is > for data. > > Joe M. Ahh yes, oops. You got it right. Thanks Joe. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Nate Duehr wrote: >> Bob Dengler wrote: >> >>> Sounds like DStar MAY have an edge over P25 Phase I, at least in terms >>> of >>> occupied bandwidth. >> No-there won't be any difference in bandwidth, since the only difference >> is how the bits are arranged. The modulation technique is the same. Just >> like Motorola Astro and M/A-Com Aegis and Pro-Voice. They are all C4FM, >> with the same IMBE vocoder. > > One's AMBE, one's IMBE... I don't think that is correct. > OK-I had been told it was IMBE. That does make a diff... -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
At 5/30/2007 14:03, you wrote: > > Discussion here locally is leaning toward 12.5 KHz spacing for what's > > really needed for P25 Phase I systems, not 10 KHz. The discussion > > was also backed up with tests of real-world BER (bit-error rate) at > > closer and closer spacings (overlapping) by a local Amateur with > > access to the appropriate P25 test equipment. In lab testing, 10 KHz > > spacing and it's effect on P25 BER is not real pretty. > >Replying to my own message because I already deleted Bob's, but his >comment that "D-Star might have an advantage" over P25 because of the >above comment I made, is only half the picture. Occupied bandwidth of >D-Star is lower, but it also *sounds* worse. The CODEC is heavily >compressed, and sounds so bad I wouldn't want to use it for day-to-day >communications... I guess that's a matter of opinion. The demos I've heard sound good to me - I rather like the compression & feel it adds intelligibility. Certainly much better sounding than the Mototrbo demo on the page recently posted here. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
At 5/30/2007 13:54, you wrote: > >>(Good luck finding test equipment that supports D-Star. Ever.) > > > > I guess you weren't at Dayton. > >Nope. Want to share? I wish I remember more of the details, but the best I remember it was not a "commercial" unit in the usual sense, but rather something that one of the "3rd party" DStar groups put together. I can say that it's not "vaporware": it was operating & showing various parameters of the received DStar signal. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Actually correction for half of the 'other 2400' and the other 1200 is for data. Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: > > On May 30, 2007, at 4:12 PM, DCFluX wrote: > > > What do they do with the other half? > > > > On 5/30/07, mch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Don't forget that only HALF of the D-Star's 4800 signal is used for > >> voice data, so you have effectively 2400 used for voice. > >> > >> Joe M. > > Forward Error Correction, I believe. > > -- > Nate Duehr, WY0X > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
On May 30, 2007, at 4:12 PM, DCFluX wrote: > What do they do with the other half? > > On 5/30/07, mch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Don't forget that only HALF of the D-Star's 4800 signal is used for >> voice data, so you have effectively 2400 used for voice. >> >> Joe M. Forward Error Correction, I believe. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
What do they do with the other half? On 5/30/07, mch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don't forget that only HALF of the D-Star's 4800 signal is used for > voice data, so you have effectively 2400 used for voice. > > Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Don't forget that only HALF of the D-Star's 4800 signal is used for voice data, so you have effectively 2400 used for voice. Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: > > > Discussion here locally is leaning toward 12.5 KHz spacing for what's > > really needed for P25 Phase I systems, not 10 KHz. The discussion > > was also backed up with tests of real-world BER (bit-error rate) at > > closer and closer spacings (overlapping) by a local Amateur with > > access to the appropriate P25 test equipment. In lab testing, 10 KHz > > spacing and it's effect on P25 BER is not real pretty. > > Replying to my own message because I already deleted Bob's, but his > comment that "D-Star might have an advantage" over P25 because of the > above comment I made, is only half the picture. Occupied bandwidth of > D-Star is lower, but it also *sounds* worse. The CODEC is heavily > compressed, and sounds so bad I wouldn't want to use it for day-to-day > communications... > > My opinion only... > > -- > Nate Duehr, WY0X > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
> Bob Dengler wrote: > >> Sounds like DStar MAY have an edge over P25 Phase I, at least in terms >> of >> occupied bandwidth. > > No-there won't be any difference in bandwidth, since the only difference > is how the bits are arranged. The modulation technique is the same. Just > like Motorola Astro and M/A-Com Aegis and Pro-Voice. They are all C4FM, > with the same IMBE vocoder. One's AMBE, one's IMBE... I don't think that is correct. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
> Discussion here locally is leaning toward 12.5 KHz spacing for what's > really needed for P25 Phase I systems, not 10 KHz. The discussion > was also backed up with tests of real-world BER (bit-error rate) at > closer and closer spacings (overlapping) by a local Amateur with > access to the appropriate P25 test equipment. In lab testing, 10 KHz > spacing and it's effect on P25 BER is not real pretty. Replying to my own message because I already deleted Bob's, but his comment that "D-Star might have an advantage" over P25 because of the above comment I made, is only half the picture. Occupied bandwidth of D-Star is lower, but it also *sounds* worse. The CODEC is heavily compressed, and sounds so bad I wouldn't want to use it for day-to-day communications... My opinion only... -- Nate Duehr, WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Bob Dengler wrote: > Sounds like DStar MAY have an edge over P25 Phase I, at least in terms of > occupied bandwidth. No-there won't be any difference in bandwidth, since the only difference is how the bits are arranged. The modulation technique is the same. Just like Motorola Astro and M/A-Com Aegis and Pro-Voice. They are all C4FM, with the same IMBE vocoder. >> (Good luck finding test equipment that supports D-Star. Ever.) > > I guess you weren't at Dayton. > > Bob NO6B I can't imagine anyone making test equipment for D-Star, but tell us what you saw! Maybe a decoder that could be attached to any discriminator output, including most service monitors...and a serial port link to a PC...that *could* be affordable... -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
>>(Good luck finding test equipment that supports D-Star. Ever.) > > I guess you weren't at Dayton. Nope. Want to share? So IFR, Motorola, or similar were there with a commercial service monitor or something equal to that quality level, that had a "D-Star" mode? -- Nate Duehr, WY0X
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
At 5/30/2007 07:08 AM, you wrote: >No they don't however, Icom recently teamed up with Kenwood to develop and >deploy another new digital mode (as yet unnamed last I heard) that >reportedly operates within the new FCC ultra narrow 6.25Khz channel plan. >An Icom America representative recently told me that this new digital mode >in their commercial line (see the F5061 and F6061) is very similar to >D-Star but not interchangable with it. >Gary This may be the basis for the rumor at Dayton that Kenwood demoed a DStar radio in Japan. Don't see anything about it on the Kenwood Japan web page, though. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
At 5/30/2007 01:10 AM, you wrote: > > While the typical 50 dB analog NBFM (5 kHz deviation) bandwidth is > > ~20 kHz, > > the 50 dB bandwidth of DStar appears to be about 10 kHz. Here in > > SoCal > > we're proposing 10 kHz channel spacing for DStar, digital P25 & any > > other > > "very narrow band digital voice", or VNBDV, systems. > >Discussion here locally is leaning toward 12.5 KHz spacing for what's >really needed for P25 Phase I systems, not 10 KHz. The discussion >was also backed up with tests of real-world BER (bit-error rate) at >closer and closer spacings (overlapping) by a local Amateur with >access to the appropriate P25 test equipment. In lab testing, 10 KHz >spacing and it's effect on P25 BER is not real pretty. Sounds like DStar MAY have an edge over P25 Phase I, at least in terms of occupied bandwidth. >(Good luck finding test equipment that supports D-Star. Ever.) I guess you weren't at Dayton. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
No they don't however, Icom recently teamed up with Kenwood to develop and deploy another new digital mode (as yet unnamed last I heard) that reportedly operates within the new FCC ultra narrow 6.25Khz channel plan. An Icom America representative recently told me that this new digital mode in their commercial line (see the F5061 and F6061) is very similar to D-Star but not interchangable with it. Gary Dakota Summerhawk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I went to the D-star site and looked for dealers for ham radio, all I > got were commercial radio shops here in Cheyenne. Do they sell the > D-star for the commercial line as well? > > Thanks > > Dakota Summerhawk
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
They can if they want to, I know I can but in most cases you can get them cheaper through big sales companies like Ham Radio Outlet and others. Paul -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dakota Summerhawk Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:28 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo I went to the D-star site and looked for dealers for ham radio, all I got were commercial radio shops here in Cheyenne. Do they sell the D-star for the commercial line as well? Thanks Dakota Summerhawk -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Coy Hilton Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:42 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo It would seem that I left out "analog" in "none of the D-STAR repeaters that I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do " ANALOG " FM repeat. I'm not confused ..my fingers drop words at times<;-) I was in paging for many years we did both..."ANALOG" and digital paging FSK NRZ...but D-STAR uses GSM, FSK and QPSK as well to send data, acording to the published standard that I have red. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date: 5/29/2007 1:01 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date: 5/29/2007 1:01 PM Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
I went to the D-star site and looked for dealers for ham radio, all I got were commercial radio shops here in Cheyenne. Do they sell the D-star for the commercial line as well? Thanks Dakota Summerhawk -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Coy Hilton Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:42 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo It would seem that I left out "analog" in "none of the D-STAR repeaters that I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do " ANALOG " FM repeat. I'm not confused ..my fingers drop words at times<;-) I was in paging for many years we did both..."ANALOG" and digital paging FSK NRZ...but D-STAR uses GSM, FSK and QPSK as well to send data, acording to the published standard that I have red.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
On May 29, 2007, at 11:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > At 5/28/2007 12:27, you wrote: > >> Also, as you pointed out, D-Star digital voice is a narrowband signal >> occupying only about 6Khz vs. the 25Khz or so that amateur >> repeaters have >> often required to date. It is difficult to do a comparison between a > > While the typical 50 dB analog NBFM (5 kHz deviation) bandwidth is > ~20 kHz, > the 50 dB bandwidth of DStar appears to be about 10 kHz. Here in > SoCal > we're proposing 10 kHz channel spacing for DStar, digital P25 & any > other > "very narrow band digital voice", or VNBDV, systems. Discussion here locally is leaning toward 12.5 KHz spacing for what's really needed for P25 Phase I systems, not 10 KHz. The discussion was also backed up with tests of real-world BER (bit-error rate) at closer and closer spacings (overlapping) by a local Amateur with access to the appropriate P25 test equipment. In lab testing, 10 KHz spacing and it's effect on P25 BER is not real pretty. (Good luck finding test equipment that supports D-Star. Ever.) Another challenge on the P25 front is that many people will probably desire initially to deploy it using Quantars or other similar repeaters that can operate in mixed conventional analog, and conventional digital modes -- "mixed mode" operation. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
At 5/28/2007 12:27, you wrote: >Also, as you pointed out, D-Star digital voice is a narrowband signal >occupying only about 6Khz vs. the 25Khz or so that amateur repeaters have >often required to date. It is difficult to do a comparison between a While the typical 50 dB analog NBFM (5 kHz deviation) bandwidth is ~20 kHz, the 50 dB bandwidth of DStar appears to be about 10 kHz. Here in SoCal we're proposing 10 kHz channel spacing for DStar, digital P25 & any other "very narrow band digital voice", or VNBDV, systems. Bob NO6B
[Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
It would seem that I left out "analog" in "none of the D-STAR repeaters that I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do " ANALOG " FM repeat. I'm not confused ..my fingers drop words at times<;-) I was in paging for many years we did both..."ANALOG" and digital paging FSK NRZ...but D-STAR uses GSM, FSK and QPSK as well to send data, acording to the published standard that I have red. AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Coy, > it seems you are confusing technologies here. D-Star repeaters and the > analog repeater systems you are accustomed to are all FM and all > conventional. D-Star is a digital audio format, that's all. It still > operates on an FM carrier. What I think you mean to say is that the D-Star > repeaters do not pass an analog audio FM signal as well as a D-Star > digital audio FM signal. I also wish they did this. > > In the U.S. land/mobile industry that uses the P25 digital audio format > this is known as "mixed mode" (a term Motorola coined). I agree that Icom > missed the boat when they did not build this feature into the new D-Star > repeater systems. Perhaps they were unable to overcome some technical > barrier, I don't know and they won't say (neither Icom or Icom America). > > Also, as you pointed out, D-Star digital voice is a narrowband signal > occupying only about 6Khz vs. the 25Khz or so that amateur repeaters have > often required to date. It is difficult to do a comparison between a > digital audio system like D-Star and a conventional analog system so what > my friends and I have done instead is we programmed several channels in > our D-Star radios with the same simplex frequency only one channel is set > for "DV" (D-Star digital voice) and another is set for narrowband analog > while a third is set for wideband analog. We have performed numerous > point-to-point (simplex) comparisons under varying conditions (day, night, > clear, rain, dry, humid, etc.) so that we could each hear the differences > for ourselves. Under some conditions analog works just fine and certainly > sounds more natural but under other conditions, especially long distance, > the digital voice can make communication more readily possible by audio > compression and virtually eliminating the path noise that we usually hear > on a distant analog signal. > > I frequently use P25 conventional, D-Star, and analog equipment and while > the D-Star format and its error correction abilities may not be the best > it does a very good job and I hope more amateurs explore this digital > voice format and, I hope more amateur equipment manufacturers offer D-Star > capable gear. Soon I hope to try out the European TETRA digital format for > more comparison and education. These are the voice modes of tomorrow so I > think it's in my best interests to learn them today. > 73, > Gary > > Coy Hilton wrote: > > > This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that > > I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, > > antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the > > same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is > > narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital > > either it's there or it's not. > > > > Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now > > for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. > > > > AC0Y > > > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn > > Coodinator" wrote: > > > > > > hi all, > > > > > > In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by > > > WB9WZB. Most impressive test. > > > > > > Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels > > > and antennas used in the test??? > > > > > > 73, ron, n9ee/r >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
duh..sorry, yep meant analog vs digital audioIt would help if I wake up before I respond. Dan KA8YPY On May 28, 2007, at 2:51 PM, Gary wrote: > You mean analog audio vs. digital audio, both are conventional FM in > this > application. > Gary > > Dan Blasberg wrote: > >> If you want a "fair" test, find a P25 machine and barrow a radio. >> The >> P25 machines have the ability to do mixed mode (that is conventional >> FM >> and digital) and would be a better machine to compare digital versus >> analog on the same frequency using the same infrastructure. >> >> Dan >> KA8YPY >> >> On May 28, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Coy Hilton wrote: >> >>> This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that >>> I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, >>> antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the >>> same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is >>> narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital >>> either it's there or it's not. >>> >>> Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now >>> for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. >>> >>> AC0Y >>> >>> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn >>> Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: hi all, In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by WB9WZB. Most impressive test. Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels and antennas used in the test??? 73, ron, n9ee/r >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
Coy, it seems you are confusing technologies here. D-Star repeaters and the analog repeater systems you are accustomed to are all FM and all conventional. D-Star is a digital audio format, that's all. It still operates on an FM carrier. What I think you mean to say is that the D-Star repeaters do not pass an analog audio FM signal as well as a D-Star digital audio FM signal. I also wish they did this. In the U.S. land/mobile industry that uses the P25 digital audio format this is known as "mixed mode" (a term Motorola coined). I agree that Icom missed the boat when they did not build this feature into the new D-Star repeater systems. Perhaps they were unable to overcome some technical barrier, I don't know and they won't say (neither Icom or Icom America). Also, as you pointed out, D-Star digital voice is a narrowband signal occupying only about 6Khz vs. the 25Khz or so that amateur repeaters have often required to date. It is difficult to do a comparison between a digital audio system like D-Star and a conventional analog system so what my friends and I have done instead is we programmed several channels in our D-Star radios with the same simplex frequency only one channel is set for "DV" (D-Star digital voice) and another is set for narrowband analog while a third is set for wideband analog. We have performed numerous point-to-point (simplex) comparisons under varying conditions (day, night, clear, rain, dry, humid, etc.) so that we could each hear the differences for ourselves. Under some conditions analog works just fine and certainly sounds more natural but under other conditions, especially long distance, the digital voice can make communication more readily possible by audio compression and virtually eliminating the path noise that we usually hear on a distant analog signal. I frequently use P25 conventional, D-Star, and analog equipment and while the D-Star format and its error correction abilities may not be the best it does a very good job and I hope more amateurs explore this digital voice format and, I hope more amateur equipment manufacturers offer D-Star capable gear. Soon I hope to try out the European TETRA digital format for more comparison and education. These are the voice modes of tomorrow so I think it's in my best interests to learn them today. 73, Gary Coy Hilton wrote: > This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that > I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, > antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the > same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is > narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital > either it's there or it's not. > > Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now > for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. > > AC0Y > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn > Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > hi all, > > > > In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by > > WB9WZB. Most impressive test. > > > > Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels > > and antennas used in the test??? > > > > 73, ron, n9ee/r
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
You mean analog audio vs. digital audio, both are conventional FM in this application. Gary Dan Blasberg wrote: > If you want a "fair" test, find a P25 machine and barrow a radio. The > P25 machines have the ability to do mixed mode (that is conventional FM > and digital) and would be a better machine to compare digital versus > analog on the same frequency using the same infrastructure. > > Dan > KA8YPY > > On May 28, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Coy Hilton wrote: > > > This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that > > I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, > > antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the > > same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is > > narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital > > either it's there or it's not. > > > > Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now > > for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. > > > > AC0Y > > > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn > > Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> hi all, > >> > >> In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by > >> WB9WZB. Most impressive test. > >> > >> Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels > >> and antennas used in the test??? > >> > >> 73, ron, n9ee/r > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
If you want a "fair" test, find a P25 machine and barrow a radio. The P25 machines have the ability to do mixed mode (that is conventional FM and digital) and would be a better machine to compare digital versus analog on the same frequency using the same infrastructure. Dan KA8YPY On May 28, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Coy Hilton wrote: > This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that > I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, > antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the > same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is > narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital > either it's there or it's not. > > Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now > for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. > > AC0Y > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn > Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> hi all, >> >> In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by >> WB9WZB. Most impressive test. >> >> Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels >> and antennas used in the test??? >> >> 73, ron, n9ee/r >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo / P25-ALNICO-AOR-MOTOTRBO-ICOM Digital Voice
I too have tried to find out what equipment was used during the "Weak signal D-STAR versus FM.mp3" demo which is posted under the "Files" sections of the "Illinoisdigitalham" yahoo group. I too first inquired to Mark (WB9QZB), he had then asked me to contact John (KC5ZRQ) directly. I received the following reply from John, and when I answered his question as to which recording I was referring to, I never received an answer or another reply. Coy, if you happen to receive a reply, can you please forward me a copy? I just recorded a Mototrbo weak signal audio comparison last night and plan to post it to the hamradio-dv.org web site. But when I do, I would also like to post a weak signal D-Star audio comparison with it, and up to this point, I cannot use KC5ZRQ's since I do not know the facts behind it. For that reason, a friend of mine is thinking of working with me possibly today to record our own D-Star weak signal comparison. Coy, please keep me posted as to your findings, or I'll let you know when our audio clip is up on the hamradio-dv.org website. Also, if anyone is interested, there are sample recordings of ALINCO, AOR, ICOM, and MOTOTRBO (AOR is the only weak signal at this time) on the home page of http://www.hamradio-dv.org . I am interested in adding a list of '''Amateur Radio''' digital voice related links (Alinco, AOR, ICOM, MOTOTRBO, P25, and any other open source / published digital voice protocols). I would appreciate any links that you believe would fill the above requirements. Be it a personal, club, or corporate web site, just as long as it has pertinent information on Amateur Radio Digital Voice protocols and or systems, I welcome them. I do somewhat frown on Digital Voice protocols which require a personal computer, juggling sound card connections, using two sound cards, or wrestling all the interconnecting cables on ones desk. I look forward to checking out your web sites and or links. Please send them directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have Fun & Thanks ! Paul Metzger K6EH - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Super! Finally A D-Star Recording! Date: March 2, 2007 13:58:18 PST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have several recordings. Please specify the filename. John, KC5ZRQ - Original Message - From: "Paul Metzger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 3:51 PM Subject: Super! Finally A D-Star Recording! Could you please inform me of all aspects of the the newly uploaded audio file to Yahoo? Range, Power, Antennas, Radios, Narrow//Wide Band, etc etc etc. If going through different repeaters, please list every item of hardware that makes up the repeaters, antenna patterns, losses, including the effective receive sensitivity of each systems receiver. I might want to add this to the N6DVA Digital Voice Amateur Radio Association Web Site at http://www.hamradio-dv.org Would you mind if I did such a thing? I've been waiting for some to conduct this very same experiment and record it just as you have. I already have an Analog/Audio comparison of the AOR units, I sure would like to have one of the D-Star line as well. Thank you for your time and consideration. Paul Metzger K6EH The Digital Voice Amateur Radio Association http://www.hamradio-dv.org N6DVA --- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Super! Finally A D-Star Recording vs Analog FM! Date: March 3, 2007 08:27:40 PST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The file is; Weak Signal D-STAR versus FM.mp3 Comparison of a Weak D-STAR Signal versus a Weak FM Signal Paul Metzger K6EH Digital Voice Amateur Radio Association http://www.hamradio-dv.org N6DVA --- --THE END --- On May 28, 2007, at 06:55, Coy Hilton wrote: This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital either it's there or it's not. Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: hi all, In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by WB9WZB. Most impressive test. Can an
[Repeater-Builder] Re: D-Star demo
This brings some questions to mind. none of the D-STAR repeaters that I know of (ICOM) have the ability to do FM repeat, If the repeaters, antennas and the rest of the equipment weren't the same or nearly the same and coo-located how can the test be fair? Also the D-Star is narrow band with respect to the standard Fm repeater. With digital either it's there or it's not. Granted digital is a good way to go but it is way too pricy right now for me to think of purchasing I'll stick with my FM machines for now. AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > hi all, > > In the FILES section of this board is a Weak Sig D-Star demon by > WB9WZB. Most impressive test. > > Can anyone give details of the test...was same rig with power levels > and antennas used in the test??? > > 73, ron, n9ee/r >
