Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
On 01/03/2019 16:14, Robert Kisteleki wrote: Hello, On 2019-02-20 09:36, Gert Doering wrote: Hi, On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 06:52:28AM +0200, Hank Nussbacher wrote: On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, s...@gibbard.org wrote: ASN coverage is just 5.6%. That really doesn't give a complete global view for stats. Rather than return money to LIRs every year in their bill, why not state that any LIR running an active probe within their ASN will get a 50Euro credit on their bill? That alone would increase ASN footprint coverage quickly within RIPE. I like that suggestion :-) (Not sure how that will pan out if we reach 50% of all LIRs, but to get from 5% to 20%, it might definitely be an idea) Interesting idea indeed! Let me try to address a few points that were mentioned before, perhaps by providing some background information along the way. The growth rate is indeed slower than in the early days. As with everything, there's no single reason for this. On one hand we had shortage of hardware probes (which is hopefully solved for the moment, see: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/alun_davies/new-ripe-atlas-version-4-probes/document_view_resolve). On the other hand, it's harder to reach "uncovered" networks and as someone mentioned before, the "the low hanging fruit being pretty saturated". We measure ASN coverage compared to all ASN-s that announce anything at all, so depending on how hard one wants to argue for having a probe "in every AS", this may or may not need improvement. We're certainly encouraging all our ambassadors and prospective hosts to deploy probes where we don't have them yet. The current application process has a built-in preference for new networks. For a few years now the procurement of new probes is funded exclusively by sponsors. Therefore we'd be very happy to see more sponsors stepping up. Finally: the public graph about the number of users shows the total we have so far (meaning users who interacted with RIPE Atlas while they were logged in via RIPE Access). We can, if this is deemed useful, track the number of recent users too (for some definition of recent). Regards, Robert And what about the idea to encourage greater ASN coverage by providing a discount on LIR membership for those who have at least one active ASN probe in their ASN? Regards, Hank
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
Hi Robert, all: One suggestion is to reach out to community networks operating in Europe and beyond to help ensure their networks are being monitored as well. Let me know if you need me to facilitate any introductions to the wider community via the IGF Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity (DC3) email list. Best, -Michael On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 3:15 PM Robert Kisteleki wrote: > Hello, > > On 2019-02-20 09:36, Gert Doering wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 06:52:28AM +0200, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > >> On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, s...@gibbard.org wrote: > >> > >> ASN coverage is just 5.6%. That really doesn't give a complete global > >> view for stats. Rather than return money to LIRs every year in their > >> bill, why not state that any LIR running an active probe within their > ASN > >> will get a 50Euro credit on their bill? That alone would increase ASN > >> footprint coverage quickly within RIPE. > > > > I like that suggestion :-) > > > > (Not sure how that will pan out if we reach 50% of all LIRs, but to get > > from 5% to 20%, it might definitely be an idea) > > Interesting idea indeed! > > Let me try to address a few points that were mentioned before, perhaps > by providing some background information along the way. > > The growth rate is indeed slower than in the early days. As with > everything, there's no single reason for this. On one hand we had > shortage of hardware probes (which is hopefully solved for the moment, > see: > > https://labs.ripe.net/Members/alun_davies/new-ripe-atlas-version-4-probes/document_view_resolve > ). > On the other hand, it's harder to reach "uncovered" networks and as > someone mentioned before, the "the low hanging fruit being pretty > saturated". > > We measure ASN coverage compared to all ASN-s that announce anything at > all, so depending on how hard one wants to argue for having a probe "in > every AS", this may or may not need improvement. We're certainly > encouraging all our ambassadors and prospective hosts to deploy probes > where we don't have them yet. The current application process has a > built-in preference for new networks. > > For a few years now the procurement of new probes is funded exclusively > by sponsors. Therefore we'd be very happy to see more sponsors stepping up. > > Finally: the public graph about the number of users shows the total we > have so far (meaning users who interacted with RIPE Atlas while they > were logged in via RIPE Access). We can, if this is deemed useful, track > the number of recent users too (for some definition of recent). > > Regards, > Robert > >
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
Hi, On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 06:52:28AM +0200, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, s...@gibbard.org wrote: > > ASN coverage is just 5.6%. That really doesn't give a complete global > view for stats. Rather than return money to LIRs every year in their > bill, why not state that any LIR running an active probe within their ASN > will get a 50Euro credit on their bill? That alone would increase ASN > footprint coverage quickly within RIPE. I like that suggestion :-) (Not sure how that will pan out if we reach 50% of all LIRs, but to get from 5% to 20%, it might definitely be an idea) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, s...@gibbard.org wrote: ASN coverage is just 5.6%. That really doesn't give a complete global view for stats. Rather than return money to LIRs every year in their bill, why not state that any LIR running an active probe within their ASN will get a 50Euro credit on their bill? That alone would increase ASN footprint coverage quickly within RIPE. -Hank I think it’s worth first considering a couple questions: what is the goal here, and what are the constraints on meeting that goal? If the goal is “lots and lots of probes in ever increasing numbers,” than spinning up lots of VM probes would be great. It would be an easy way to get probes in large numbers cheaply and efficiently. But if the goal is to do actual network performance measurements from the perspective of the end users who actually use the Internet, that doesn’t help much. Where Atlas really shines is in the huge number of measurement points on end user connections all over the world. Need to understand what the network looks like to users on some ISP in Venezuela? Atlas probably has a probe, and can tell you that. Here we get into an issue of the low hanging fruit being pretty saturated. For instance, I could plug in a probe at my house, but it would be the third Atlas probe on Comcast in Oakland, California, and wouldn’t really add anything (thus, I have a probe that I’ve been carrying around in my bag for the last few months waiting until I have time to plug it in somewhere more interesting). But there are still a lot of smaller ISPs that don’t have Atlas probes despite having enough end users for measurements to matter, probably because they don’t have any customers who are part of the global network operations community. It should be possible to get probes installed in a bunch of those, but it would require both available probe hardware and a targeted effort. My second question is what the constraints are on sending out new probes. Is there a shortage at the supplier, or is this just something that needs funding? -Steve On Feb 14, 2019, at 11:22 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: I think it’s quite easy to get a VM these days as well, so the needs have perhaps changed somewhat. I know that hosting a VM anchor is a lot easier now, and people may have an easier time hosting a VM than a probe in some cases. - Jared On Feb 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, James Gannon wrote: Hard to get new probes these days. On 14.02.19, 18:10, "ripe-atlas on behalf of Hank Nussbacher" wrote: On 12/02/2019 18:22, Hank Nussbacher wrote: As I am preparing my presentation I went to the stats page: https://atlas.ripe.net/results/maps/network-coverage/ and found that even user growth continues upward as well as number of anchor probes, the number of actual probes has more or less tapered off as of mid-2017 and ends close to 10,000 probes. Why is that? Since Nov 2015 when we passed the 9000 probe mark, probe growth is negligible. Why have all these new users (20,000 new uses since Nov 2015!) not added probes? What are we doing wrong to entice users to install probes? Regards, Hank I have been invited to a large CS dept in a university to give a 40 minute intro into what is RIPE ATLAS, how does it work, how do you get credits, how many probes are there, what is an anchor, where are they located, how does the GUI work, what type of measurements can one do, etc. Very very introductory - just to whet their appetite. A basic intro to RIPE ATLAS. So I looked in: https://atlas.ripe.net/resources/training-and-materials/ and didn't find anything (PS the webinar link is broken). I am sure there must be some PPT/PDF presentation out there for this. Pointers? Thanks, Hank
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
This is an interesting point to note. My local ISPs have many probes but the small ones don’t. It’s easy enough for me (and probably many others) to help people get more probes on those large ISPs but once there are a number of them with good uptime, it’s not as valuable. What is important is those smaller ISPs. Perhaps we should try and make some sort of “official” (as in, on behalf of the RIPE Atlas rather than individually) contact with some of these smaller ISPs and see if they can help get probes in their end user networks. Thanks ~ Bryce Wilson, AS202313, EVIX AS137933 > On Feb 19, 2019, at 4:56 PM, s...@gibbard.org wrote: > > I think it’s worth first considering a couple questions: what is the goal > here, and what are the constraints on meeting that goal? > > If the goal is “lots and lots of probes in ever increasing numbers,” than > spinning up lots of VM probes would be great. It would be an easy way to get > probes in large numbers cheaply and efficiently. But if the goal is to do > actual network performance measurements from the perspective of the end users > who actually use the Internet, that doesn’t help much. > > Where Atlas really shines is in the huge number of measurement points on end > user connections all over the world. Need to understand what the network > looks like to users on some ISP in Venezuela? Atlas probably has a probe, > and can tell you that. > > Here we get into an issue of the low hanging fruit being pretty saturated. > For instance, I could plug in a probe at my house, but it would be the third > Atlas probe on Comcast in Oakland, California, and wouldn’t really add > anything (thus, I have a probe that I’ve been carrying around in my bag for > the last few months waiting until I have time to plug it in somewhere more > interesting). But there are still a lot of smaller ISPs that don’t have Atlas > probes despite having enough end users for measurements to matter, probably > because they don’t have any customers who are part of the global network > operations community. It should be possible to get probes installed in a > bunch of those, but it would require both available probe hardware and a > targeted effort. > > My second question is what the constraints are on sending out new probes. Is > there a shortage at the supplier, or is this just something that needs > funding? > > -Steve > > >> On Feb 14, 2019, at 11:22 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: >> >> I think it’s quite easy to get a VM these days as well, so the needs have >> perhaps changed somewhat. >> >> I know that hosting a VM anchor is a lot easier now, and people may have an >> easier time hosting a VM than a probe in some cases. >> >> - Jared >> >>> On Feb 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, James Gannon wrote: >>> >>> Hard to get new probes these days. >>> >>> On 14.02.19, 18:10, "ripe-atlas on behalf of Hank Nussbacher" >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 12/02/2019 18:22, Hank Nussbacher wrote: >>> >>> As I am preparing my presentation I went to the stats page: >>> https://atlas.ripe.net/results/maps/network-coverage/ >>> and found that even user growth continues upward as well as number of >>> anchor probes, the number of actual probes has more or less tapered off >>> as of mid-2017 and ends close to 10,000 probes. Why is that? >>> Since Nov 2015 when we passed the 9000 probe mark, probe growth is >>> negligible. >>> Why have all these new users (20,000 new uses since Nov 2015!) not added >>> probes? >>> What are we doing wrong to entice users to install probes? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Hank >>> I have been invited to a large CS dept in a university to give a 40 minute intro into what is RIPE ATLAS, how does it work, how do you get credits, how many probes are there, what is an anchor, where are they located, how does the GUI work, what type of measurements can one do, etc. Very very introductory - just to whet their appetite. A basic intro to RIPE ATLAS. So I looked in: https://atlas.ripe.net/resources/training-and-materials/ and didn't find anything (PS the webinar link is broken). I am sure there must be some PPT/PDF presentation out there for this. Pointers? Thanks, Hank >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
I think it’s worth first considering a couple questions: what is the goal here, and what are the constraints on meeting that goal? If the goal is “lots and lots of probes in ever increasing numbers,” than spinning up lots of VM probes would be great. It would be an easy way to get probes in large numbers cheaply and efficiently. But if the goal is to do actual network performance measurements from the perspective of the end users who actually use the Internet, that doesn’t help much. Where Atlas really shines is in the huge number of measurement points on end user connections all over the world. Need to understand what the network looks like to users on some ISP in Venezuela? Atlas probably has a probe, and can tell you that. Here we get into an issue of the low hanging fruit being pretty saturated. For instance, I could plug in a probe at my house, but it would be the third Atlas probe on Comcast in Oakland, California, and wouldn’t really add anything (thus, I have a probe that I’ve been carrying around in my bag for the last few months waiting until I have time to plug it in somewhere more interesting). But there are still a lot of smaller ISPs that don’t have Atlas probes despite having enough end users for measurements to matter, probably because they don’t have any customers who are part of the global network operations community. It should be possible to get probes installed in a bunch of those, but it would require both available probe hardware and a targeted effort. My second question is what the constraints are on sending out new probes. Is there a shortage at the supplier, or is this just something that needs funding? -Steve > On Feb 14, 2019, at 11:22 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: > > I think it’s quite easy to get a VM these days as well, so the needs have > perhaps changed somewhat. > > I know that hosting a VM anchor is a lot easier now, and people may have an > easier time hosting a VM than a probe in some cases. > > - Jared > >> On Feb 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, James Gannon wrote: >> >> Hard to get new probes these days. >> >> On 14.02.19, 18:10, "ripe-atlas on behalf of Hank Nussbacher" >> wrote: >> >> On 12/02/2019 18:22, Hank Nussbacher wrote: >> >> As I am preparing my presentation I went to the stats page: >> https://atlas.ripe.net/results/maps/network-coverage/ >> and found that even user growth continues upward as well as number of >> anchor probes, the number of actual probes has more or less tapered off >> as of mid-2017 and ends close to 10,000 probes. Why is that? >> Since Nov 2015 when we passed the 9000 probe mark, probe growth is >> negligible. >> Why have all these new users (20,000 new uses since Nov 2015!) not added >> probes? >> What are we doing wrong to entice users to install probes? >> >> Regards, >> Hank >> >>> I have been invited to a large CS dept in a university to give a 40 >>> minute intro into >>> what is RIPE ATLAS, how does it work, how do you get credits, how many >>> probes >>> are there, what is an anchor, where are they located, how does the GUI >>> work, what type of measurements >>> can one do, etc. Very very introductory - just to whet their >>> appetite. A basic intro to RIPE ATLAS. >>> So I looked in: >>> https://atlas.ripe.net/resources/training-and-materials/ >>> and didn't find anything (PS the webinar link is broken). >>> I am sure there must be some PPT/PDF presentation out there for this. >>> Pointers? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Hank >> >> >> >> >> > >
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
I think it’s quite easy to get a VM these days as well, so the needs have perhaps changed somewhat. I know that hosting a VM anchor is a lot easier now, and people may have an easier time hosting a VM than a probe in some cases. - Jared > On Feb 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, James Gannon wrote: > > Hard to get new probes these days. > > On 14.02.19, 18:10, "ripe-atlas on behalf of Hank Nussbacher" > wrote: > >On 12/02/2019 18:22, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > >As I am preparing my presentation I went to the stats page: >https://atlas.ripe.net/results/maps/network-coverage/ >and found that even user growth continues upward as well as number of >anchor probes, the number of actual probes has more or less tapered off >as of mid-2017 and ends close to 10,000 probes. Why is that? >Since Nov 2015 when we passed the 9000 probe mark, probe growth is >negligible. >Why have all these new users (20,000 new uses since Nov 2015!) not added >probes? >What are we doing wrong to entice users to install probes? > >Regards, >Hank > >> I have been invited to a large CS dept in a university to give a 40 >> minute intro into >> what is RIPE ATLAS, how does it work, how do you get credits, how many >> probes >> are there, what is an anchor, where are they located, how does the GUI >> work, what type of measurements >> can one do, etc. Very very introductory - just to whet their >> appetite. A basic intro to RIPE ATLAS. >> So I looked in: >> https://atlas.ripe.net/resources/training-and-materials/ >> and didn't find anything (PS the webinar link is broken). >> I am sure there must be some PPT/PDF presentation out there for this. >> Pointers? >> >> Thanks, >> Hank > > > > >
Re: [atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
Hard to get new probes these days. On 14.02.19, 18:10, "ripe-atlas on behalf of Hank Nussbacher" wrote: On 12/02/2019 18:22, Hank Nussbacher wrote: As I am preparing my presentation I went to the stats page: https://atlas.ripe.net/results/maps/network-coverage/ and found that even user growth continues upward as well as number of anchor probes, the number of actual probes has more or less tapered off as of mid-2017 and ends close to 10,000 probes. Why is that? Since Nov 2015 when we passed the 9000 probe mark, probe growth is negligible. Why have all these new users (20,000 new uses since Nov 2015!) not added probes? What are we doing wrong to entice users to install probes? Regards, Hank > I have been invited to a large CS dept in a university to give a 40 > minute intro into > what is RIPE ATLAS, how does it work, how do you get credits, how many > probes > are there, what is an anchor, where are they located, how does the GUI > work, what type of measurements > can one do, etc. Very very introductory - just to whet their > appetite. A basic intro to RIPE ATLAS. > So I looked in: > https://atlas.ripe.net/resources/training-and-materials/ > and didn't find anything (PS the webinar link is broken). > I am sure there must be some PPT/PDF presentation out there for this. > Pointers? > > Thanks, > Hank
[atlas] Why has probe growth stagnated?
On 12/02/2019 18:22, Hank Nussbacher wrote: As I am preparing my presentation I went to the stats page: https://atlas.ripe.net/results/maps/network-coverage/ and found that even user growth continues upward as well as number of anchor probes, the number of actual probes has more or less tapered off as of mid-2017 and ends close to 10,000 probes. Why is that? Since Nov 2015 when we passed the 9000 probe mark, probe growth is negligible. Why have all these new users (20,000 new uses since Nov 2015!) not added probes? What are we doing wrong to entice users to install probes? Regards, Hank I have been invited to a large CS dept in a university to give a 40 minute intro into what is RIPE ATLAS, how does it work, how do you get credits, how many probes are there, what is an anchor, where are they located, how does the GUI work, what type of measurements can one do, etc. Very very introductory - just to whet their appetite. A basic intro to RIPE ATLAS. So I looked in: https://atlas.ripe.net/resources/training-and-materials/ and didn't find anything (PS the webinar link is broken). I am sure there must be some PPT/PDF presentation out there for this. Pointers? Thanks, Hank
