Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[Rob Landry]

0 dbFS is more like 0 degrees Kelvin.

0 Kelvin is as cold as it is possible to go, and 0 dbFS is as high as it 
is possible to go.



Rob

--
Я там, где ребята толковые,
Я там, где плакаты "Вперёд",
Где песни рабочие новые
Страна трудовая поёт.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, al davis wrote:


On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:22:52 -0500
Cowboy  wrote:


 Kinda sorta like zero degrees F.
 It's not where water freezes, nor boils, nor anything except as an
 apples to apples comparison to another F thermometer.


Ah .. but degrees F does have a reference in reality.

To the accuracy possible at the time it was invented, 0 F is the
freezing temperature of a particular mix of salt water, and 100 F is
human body temperature.  I know, it's a few degrees off from that by
modern standards, but for when it was invented, it made sense.
Sometimes the first attempt isn't the best one to keep.


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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[al davis]

On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:22:52 -0500
Cowboy  wrote:

>  Kinda sorta like zero degrees F.
>  It's not where water freezes, nor boils, nor anything except as an
>  apples to apples comparison to another F thermometer.

Ah .. but degrees F does have a reference in reality.

To the accuracy possible at the time it was invented, 0 F is the
freezing temperature of a particular mix of salt water, and 100 F is
human body temperature.  I know, it's a few degrees off from that by
modern standards, but for when it was invented, it made sense.
Sometimes the first attempt isn't the best one to keep.


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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[Cowboy]

On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:23:01 -0500
al davis  wrote:

> Sort of ..
> 
> 0 dbVU is based on having an average reading meter,

 Well, not quite.
 VU has its own well defined ballistics that take into account
 the moving mass, and therefore momentum, of the needle, as well
 as the magnetic damping that occurs as the armature coil regenerates
 the opposing current as it moves in the magnetic field of the poles,
 etc. etc.

> so there is no
> real correspondence to dBFS. 

 In fact, VU is an arbitrary "reference standard" that correlates to
 nothing at all, except as a reference standard.
 Kinda sorta like zero degrees F.
 It's not where water freezes, nor boils, nor anything except as an
 apples to apples comparison to another F thermometer.

> It seems to me that peak normalization of -13 doesn't make sense,
> because it is just throwing away 13 db of level with no real benefit.

 You can think that, but when you consider that in the "old days"
 zero on the console was still 22 db ( more or less ) below the rails,
 in fact normalizing to -13 has already "gained" +9 db !!

> There is a real loss when playing on a cheap sound card that has
> output level too low to begin with, and maybe also has a noise level
> higher than it should be.

 In which case why would you be trying to use a professional play-out
 system by and for professionals on amateur junk ?
 Two cans and a string also has low levels and high noise ( depending
 on the wind at the moment ) but I'm not sure it has anything to do
 with professional environment audio levels ?

-- 
Cowboy

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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[ermina]

On 11/09/2016 01:23 AM, al davis wrote:

It seems to me that peak normalization of -13 doesn't make sense,
because it is just throwing away 13 db of level with no real benefit.
There is a real loss when playing on a cheap sound card that has output
level too low to begin with, and maybe also has a noise level higher
than it should be.
Digital is not magnetic tape, the days of recording to the maximum 
available level to get the best signal-to-noise ratio are gone.
I dare hope that no one sends a signal to air with an D/A converter so 
old and cheap that its noise is a problem. Even 100$ USB interfaces do 
not have that problem.


To me peak normalization at -13dBFS makes sense in the way that a 
program or song with correct-to-small dynamic range will average close 
to -23LUFS when peak normalized at -13dBFS.


Your entire library and broadcast chain must be calibrated to a 
reference level that leaves headroom, lots of it.
If your standard overcompressed pop song sits at -2dBFS in your system 
then how can you deal with very dynamic programs ?

The answer is in the initial question, you can't.

The correct way is to shift the average level of everything to a 
reference low enough to accomodate every type of program.
The EBU R128 (or ITU-R BS.1770-2 for rest of the world) provides a norm 
to implement this.


This way, an overcompressed song will average output at REF_LEVEL, with 
peaks at (say) REF_LEVEL + 3dBFS.
A dynamic program will average at REF_LEVEL, with peaks at REF_LEVEL + 
20dBFS if need be.


It's not the dynamic program that's "lower than it should be".
It's the vast majority of music production and "amateur" made programs 
that are _way_ louder than they should.


. e
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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[al davis]

On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 13:38:50 -0800
Bill Putney  wrote:

> 0 dB in Rivendell is 0 dBFS (Full Scale) the highest value that can
> be represented digitally. 0 dBFS is +18 dBVU (or +20 if you're
> SMTPE). So the default normalization Rivendell uses (-13 dBFS) is
> already +5 dBVU. 

Sort of ..

0 dbVU is based on having an average reading meter, so there is no real
correspondence to dBFS.  The +18 or +20 correspondence is what you will
see with a tone, but when you play music or voice, peaks go much higher
and don't show on the meter.

Rivendell normalization just looks for the biggest peak and scales, so
I usually set it to "-3", which roughly leaves alone the levels on
stuff that is well recorded, and lowers the level of poor quality high
level recordings that are clipped.  It might occasionally being up the
level of something recorded low, but rarely.

It seems to me that peak normalization of -13 doesn't make sense,
because it is just throwing away 13 db of level with no real benefit.
There is a real loss when playing on a cheap sound card that has output
level too low to begin with, and maybe also has a noise level higher
than it should be.

For a specific program, how about turn normalize off, and manually set
the level.  I believe for this you can turn it up, but probably the
best is to just leave it alone.

To repeat what Bill said in different words ...  Normalize to +
anything would result in clipping.
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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[Simon Frech]

That makes sense, Bill. I disregarded the Full Scale.
The program in question is Democracy Now, and we have to boost the volume every 
day. We also insert underwriting messages in the two breaks of the show, so it 
can run unattended, but that’s done in an audio editor on a Mac.
When I look at the file in RDLibrary / Edit Markers, it does look like the 
spikes are pretty high, looks good though, just doesn’t move the VU meter as 
much as some other files.
Currently we’re not even using Rivendell live yet, I’m just preparing for it.

Thanks!

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Bill Putney  wrote:
> 
> Simon,
> 
> 0 dB in Rivendell is 0 dBFS (Full Scale) the highest value that can be 
> represented digitally. 0 dBFS is +18 dBVU (or +20 if you're SMTPE). So the 
> default normalization Rivendell uses (-13 dBFS) is already +5 dBVU. 
> 
> To go to +3 dBFS you need to make a 16 bit AtoD converter take 17 bits. 
> 
> Bill Putney - WB6RFW
> Chief Engineer
> KPTZ - Port Townsend, WA
> 
> PP-SEL/A
> 
> "...you know me to be a very smart man. Don't you think if I were wrong, I'd 
> know it?" -Sheldon Cooper
> 
> On Nov 8, 2016, at 13:09, Simon Frech  wrote:
> 
>> We download a program that’s always lower volume than it should be. The most 
>> I can normalize in RDCatch is -1. Is there any way to set that to something 
>> like +3 dB?
>> 
>> Simon
>> 
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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[Bill Putney]

Simon,

0 dB in Rivendell is 0 dBFS (Full Scale) the highest value that can be 
represented digitally. 0 dBFS is +18 dBVU (or +20 if you're SMTPE). So the 
default normalization Rivendell uses (-13 dBFS) is already +5 dBVU. 

To go to +3 dBFS you need to make a 16 bit AtoD converter take 17 bits. 

Bill Putney - WB6RFW
Chief Engineer
KPTZ - Port Townsend, WA

PP-SEL/A

"...you know me to be a very smart man. Don't you think if I were wrong, I'd 
know it?" -Sheldon Cooper

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 13:09, Simon Frech  wrote:
> 
> We download a program that’s always lower volume than it should be. The most 
> I can normalize in RDCatch is -1. Is there any way to set that to something 
> like +3 dB?
> 
> Simon
> 
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Re: [RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[Tom Van Gorkom]

I believe this is the digital scale where 0dB is absolute max before
distortion so you would not want it at that level. I wonder if it has audio
spikes that cause the average level to be much lower. As I understand it,
normalization limits all the audio to the peaks to whatever level you set
it to but does not compress so high fast spikes can cause all of it to be
lower than desirable. In those cases, we have cleaned it up and re-leveled
it in Audacity.

Tom Van Gorkom
Radio Esperanza Engineering, KRIO AM/FM, KOIR FM
Office: 956-380-8150
Cell: 865-803-7427

Rio Grande Bible Institute
4300 S US Hwy 281
Edinburg, TX 78539

On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Simon Frech  wrote:

> We download a program that’s always lower volume than it should be. The
> most I can normalize in RDCatch is -1. Is there any way to set that to
> something like +3 dB?
>
> Simon
>
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[RDD] RDCatch normalize above -1dB?

[Simon Frech]

We download a program that’s always lower volume than it should be. The most I 
can normalize in RDCatch is -1. Is there any way to set that to something like 
+3 dB?

Simon

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