Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Abrolag via Rosegarden-user]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 18:16:14 +0100
chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user  wrote:

> Mystery solved! 
> The Korg-M3-GM device is not used in this composition
> but all of the unused RG tracks had defaulted to this device
> so RG was sending out a set of PCs for this device after
> the set for the EDS device. As both are connected to the
> same physical device (midi port), the second set were
> overwriting the first. I don't know where the particular
> GM instrument numbers were coming from (default device?) 
> but they were not relevant to the composition in any case.

Ah yes! Been caught out that way myself :(

> Deleting the GM device resolved the issue and the piece
> now plays properly under v17.12.
> 
> In future, if I have multiple M3 devices connected I will
> ensure that any spare RG tracks are deleted or set to a null device.
> 
> Thanks for all the help. RG is a fantastic resource.
> 
> If anyone reading this thread is interested in hearing the
> piece concerned it is my rendition of a track from Frank Zappa's
> 'Hot Rats' album from 1969 (little Umbrellas).
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-869419971/little-umbrellas
> 
> Chuck.

Nice work. Lots of detail in this.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

Mystery solved! 
The Korg-M3-GM device is not used in this composition
but all of the unused RG tracks had defaulted to this device
so RG was sending out a set of PCs for this device after
the set for the EDS device. As both are connected to the
same physical device (midi port), the second set were
overwriting the first. I don't know where the particular
GM instrument numbers were coming from (default device?) 
but they were not relevant to the composition in any case.

Deleting the GM device resolved the issue and the piece
now plays properly under v17.12.

In future, if I have multiple M3 devices connected I will
ensure that any spare RG tracks are deleted or set to a null device.

Thanks for all the help. RG is a fantastic resource.

If anyone reading this thread is interested in hearing the
piece concerned it is my rendition of a track from Frank Zappa's
'Hot Rats' album from 1969 (little Umbrellas).

https://soundcloud.com/user-869419971/little-umbrellas

Chuck.


On Sun, 2017-07-23 at 09:26 -0400, Ted Felix wrote:
> [Resending because this hasn't appeared on the user list.  Sorry if 
> duplicate...]
> 
> On 07/20/2017 12:15 PM, Ted Felix wrote:
> >Do you have two devices connected to the same port?
> 
>From digging through the .rg file, it appears that you do:
> 
> Korg-M3-GM -> "20:0 E-MU XMidi2X2 MIDI 1 (duplex)"
> Korg-M3-EDS -> "20:0 E-MU XMidi2X2 MIDI 1 (duplex)"
> M1 -> "20:1 E-MU XMidi2X2 MIDI 2 (duplex)"
> 
>This is probably why you are seeing two channel setups going out to 
> the M3 with 16.02.  With later versions, you shouldn't see that.  Or you 
> will only see it where there is a channel conflict in your tracks.  I.e. 
> two tracks pointing to the same channel on the M3 but using the two 
> different devices (Korg-M3-GM and Korg-M3-EDS).
> 
>Limitations in 16.02 make it difficult to do the above.  The only way 
> that comes to my mind is to combine the device files for each.  This was 
> fixed in 16.06 and channel setups only go out for channels that have tracks.
> 
> Ted.



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Ted Felix]

[Resending because this hasn't appeared on the user list.  Sorry if 
duplicate...]


On 07/20/2017 12:15 PM, Ted Felix wrote:

   Do you have two devices connected to the same port?


  From digging through the .rg file, it appears that you do:

Korg-M3-GM -> "20:0 E-MU XMidi2X2 MIDI 1 (duplex)"
Korg-M3-EDS -> "20:0 E-MU XMidi2X2 MIDI 1 (duplex)"
M1 -> "20:1 E-MU XMidi2X2 MIDI 2 (duplex)"

  This is probably why you are seeing two channel setups going out to 
the M3 with 16.02.  With later versions, you shouldn't see that.  Or you 
will only see it where there is a channel conflict in your tracks.  I.e. 
two tracks pointing to the same channel on the M3 but using the two 
different devices (Korg-M3-GM and Korg-M3-EDS).


  Limitations in 16.02 make it difficult to do the above.  The only way 
that comes to my mind is to combine the device files for each.  This was 
fixed in 16.06 and channel setups only go out for channels that have tracks.


Ted.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Ted Felix]

On 07/20/2017 07:37 AM, chuck elliot wrote:

v16.02 is also sending out 2 sets of PCs on load but they
are in the opposite order (correct set 2nd) so this explains
why the piece plays properly under 16.02...


  Do you have two devices connected to the same port?  I noticed that 
you have one device called M3-EDS and another called M3-GM.  Are they 
both connected to the M3's port?  If so, that might be why two sets of 
channel setups are going out to the M3.  Try pointing M3-GM to [no 
port], save, and reload.  That might get you some progress with 16.02.


  Later versions only send channel setups on the channels that are 
used, so the problem would only occur where the same channels were being 
used by the two devices.


Ted.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Ted Felix]

On 07/20/2017 07:15 AM, chuck elliot wrote:

New finding - RG is sending 2 sets of PCs on loading
this particular .rg file. Firstly the correct set as
configured in RG and then a complete set of channels
1-15 with different instrument settings and these are
overwriting the correct ones in the M3.


  Sounds like you've found it.  I'm a bit swamped at the moment, but I 
hope to get to this by the end of next week.


Ted.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

Ignore my last message. I was mistaken (it was late!)

New finding - RG is sending 2 sets of PCs on loading
this particular .rg file. Firstly the correct set as
configured in RG and then a complete set of channels
1-15 with different instrument settings and these are
overwriting the correct ones in the M3.

I do not know where these settings are coming from. They
do not correspond to the default studio settings. I presume
the .rg file has gotten corrupted somehow and contains
conflicting intrument configs... ?

Chuck.




On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 21:24 -0400, Ted Felix wrote:
> On 07/18/2017 07:32 PM, chuck elliot wrote:
> > That has turned up some interesting findings:
> 
>Indeed.
> 
> > under v16.02 selecting [no port] for the relevant M3 bank
> > does not send any PCs and nor does switching it back to
> > the midi port. I see only ALSA ports being subscribed etc.
> > (filtering other midi messages)
> 
>OK.  This is to be expected.  That feature was added later.
> 
> > This version send PCs whenever a new segment is encountered
> > during playback too.
> > It is presumably sending PCs on load too so that my M3 is set
> > up to start with.
> 
>That behavior was causing problems for some users.  But it makes 
> sense that it was working for you since the channel setup at load wasn't 
> working with the M3.
> 
> > under v17.12, selecting [no port] for the M3 bank sends out a
> > complete set of PCs for the M3 which sets up the M3 nicely!
> > such that when it is reconnected to midi it plays all the
> > correct instruments (but reconnecting does not send PCs).
> 
>Good to hear.  This means we are sending the right stuff at some 
> point and the M3 is getting it.  That reduces the mystery.
> 
> > This version does not send PCs on play it seems.
> 
>It does not.  That change was made in r14644.  The PCs on play 
> behavior in 16.02 was causing problems for some users, so it was 
> removed.  What is confusing is that I thought that I had at least 
> implemented sending PCs for playback from time zero.  Apparently I 
> didn't.  So, one must rely on having everything plugged in and ready to 
> go at load time to ensure a proper setup.  That seems a bit cumbersome.
> 
>Sending channel setups (which is what we call this internally) at 
> playback from time zero would work.  We might also add a menu item "Send 
> Channel Setups" or something similar to let you manually get your synths 
> in sync with the composition at any time.  Just in case power goes out 
> or something gets unplugged at the wrong time.
> 
> > The one thing that is not clear to me at this point is why
> > the 'send PC on load' in this version is succeeding with the
> > M1 but not with the M3 ???
> 
>That's the real mystery.  We must be sending something that the M3 
> doesn't like in the load case.  It wouldn't surprise me at all.  The 
> question is: what?
> 
>I think the test to run would be as follows...  First, do the port 
> switch and connect to kmidimon to see what's going out.  Keep a record 
> of this.  I think you can save it from kmidimon maybe.  Then modify the 
> .rg file to connect the M3 to kmidimon's port.  Save and reload and it 
> should show you what it is sending out on load.  I can actually do this 
> test myself since it only requires the .rg file and kmidimon.
> 
> > I note what Michael has said about sending BS/PCs and upsetting
> > hardware configurations but it seems pointless to me to have
> > instrument settings in a sequencer if you cannot use them to
> > configure your whole setup centrally.
> 
>That's the idea.  We send them at load anyway, so the assumption is 
> that we are taking control.  By unchecking the checkboxes next to bank 
> and program, you can configure individual channels to not send BS/PCs at 
> all.  So, if you want to let the instruments have control, you can.
> 
> > For those that don't want or need RG to
> > configure their hardware an appropriate send filter ought to
> > be able to cater for that no?
> 
>Just uncheck bank and program in the Instrument Parameters box.
> 
> Ted.



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

I have tried this experiment.
It looks as if the PCs are being sent on the wrong
port. The connection for M3-INT-EDS is 131 inside
the Midi Manager but kmidimon shows the PCs being
sent on port 130. Maybe you can confirm.

BTW apologies - it was Abrolag who mentioned the
'send PC on play new segment' problem, not Michael
- my bad.

Chuck.


On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 21:24 -0400, Ted Felix wrote:
> On 07/18/2017 07:32 PM, chuck elliot wrote:
> > That has turned up some interesting findings:
> 
>Indeed.
> 
> > under v16.02 selecting [no port] for the relevant M3 bank
> > does not send any PCs and nor does switching it back to
> > the midi port. I see only ALSA ports being subscribed etc.
> > (filtering other midi messages)
> 
>OK.  This is to be expected.  That feature was added later.
> 
> > This version send PCs whenever a new segment is encountered
> > during playback too.
> > It is presumably sending PCs on load too so that my M3 is set
> > up to start with.
> 
>That behavior was causing problems for some users.  But it makes 
> sense that it was working for you since the channel setup at load wasn't 
> working with the M3.
> 
> > under v17.12, selecting [no port] for the M3 bank sends out a
> > complete set of PCs for the M3 which sets up the M3 nicely!
> > such that when it is reconnected to midi it plays all the
> > correct instruments (but reconnecting does not send PCs).
> 
>Good to hear.  This means we are sending the right stuff at some 
> point and the M3 is getting it.  That reduces the mystery.
> 
> > This version does not send PCs on play it seems.
> 
>It does not.  That change was made in r14644.  The PCs on play 
> behavior in 16.02 was causing problems for some users, so it was 
> removed.  What is confusing is that I thought that I had at least 
> implemented sending PCs for playback from time zero.  Apparently I 
> didn't.  So, one must rely on having everything plugged in and ready to 
> go at load time to ensure a proper setup.  That seems a bit cumbersome.
> 
>Sending channel setups (which is what we call this internally) at 
> playback from time zero would work.  We might also add a menu item "Send 
> Channel Setups" or something similar to let you manually get your synths 
> in sync with the composition at any time.  Just in case power goes out 
> or something gets unplugged at the wrong time.
> 
> > The one thing that is not clear to me at this point is why
> > the 'send PC on load' in this version is succeeding with the
> > M1 but not with the M3 ???
> 
>That's the real mystery.  We must be sending something that the M3 
> doesn't like in the load case.  It wouldn't surprise me at all.  The 
> question is: what?
> 
>I think the test to run would be as follows...  First, do the port 
> switch and connect to kmidimon to see what's going out.  Keep a record 
> of this.  I think you can save it from kmidimon maybe.  Then modify the 
> .rg file to connect the M3 to kmidimon's port.  Save and reload and it 
> should show you what it is sending out on load.  I can actually do this 
> test myself since it only requires the .rg file and kmidimon.
> 
> > I note what Michael has said about sending BS/PCs and upsetting
> > hardware configurations but it seems pointless to me to have
> > instrument settings in a sequencer if you cannot use them to
> > configure your whole setup centrally.
> 
>That's the idea.  We send them at load anyway, so the assumption is 
> that we are taking control.  By unchecking the checkboxes next to bank 
> and program, you can configure individual channels to not send BS/PCs at 
> all.  So, if you want to let the instruments have control, you can.
> 
> > For those that don't want or need RG to
> > configure their hardware an appropriate send filter ought to
> > be able to cater for that no?
> 
>Just uncheck bank and program in the Instrument Parameters box.
> 
> Ted.



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Ted Felix]

On 07/18/2017 07:32 PM, chuck elliot wrote:

That has turned up some interesting findings:


  Indeed.


under v16.02 selecting [no port] for the relevant M3 bank
does not send any PCs and nor does switching it back to
the midi port. I see only ALSA ports being subscribed etc.
(filtering other midi messages)


  OK.  This is to be expected.  That feature was added later.


This version send PCs whenever a new segment is encountered
during playback too.
It is presumably sending PCs on load too so that my M3 is set
up to start with.


  That behavior was causing problems for some users.  But it makes 
sense that it was working for you since the channel setup at load wasn't 
working with the M3.



under v17.12, selecting [no port] for the M3 bank sends out a
complete set of PCs for the M3 which sets up the M3 nicely!
such that when it is reconnected to midi it plays all the
correct instruments (but reconnecting does not send PCs).


  Good to hear.  This means we are sending the right stuff at some 
point and the M3 is getting it.  That reduces the mystery.



This version does not send PCs on play it seems.


  It does not.  That change was made in r14644.  The PCs on play 
behavior in 16.02 was causing problems for some users, so it was 
removed.  What is confusing is that I thought that I had at least 
implemented sending PCs for playback from time zero.  Apparently I 
didn't.  So, one must rely on having everything plugged in and ready to 
go at load time to ensure a proper setup.  That seems a bit cumbersome.


  Sending channel setups (which is what we call this internally) at 
playback from time zero would work.  We might also add a menu item "Send 
Channel Setups" or something similar to let you manually get your synths 
in sync with the composition at any time.  Just in case power goes out 
or something gets unplugged at the wrong time.



The one thing that is not clear to me at this point is why
the 'send PC on load' in this version is succeeding with the
M1 but not with the M3 ???


  That's the real mystery.  We must be sending something that the M3 
doesn't like in the load case.  It wouldn't surprise me at all.  The 
question is: what?


  I think the test to run would be as follows...  First, do the port 
switch and connect to kmidimon to see what's going out.  Keep a record 
of this.  I think you can save it from kmidimon maybe.  Then modify the 
.rg file to connect the M3 to kmidimon's port.  Save and reload and it 
should show you what it is sending out on load.  I can actually do this 
test myself since it only requires the .rg file and kmidimon.



I note what Michael has said about sending BS/PCs and upsetting
hardware configurations but it seems pointless to me to have
instrument settings in a sequencer if you cannot use them to
configure your whole setup centrally.


  That's the idea.  We send them at load anyway, so the assumption is 
that we are taking control.  By unchecking the checkboxes next to bank 
and program, you can configure individual channels to not send BS/PCs at 
all.  So, if you want to let the instruments have control, you can.



For those that don't want or need RG to
configure their hardware an appropriate send filter ought to
be able to cater for that no?


  Just uncheck bank and program in the Instrument Parameters box.

Ted.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

That has turned up some interesting findings:

under v16.02 selecting [no port] for the relevant M3 bank
does not send any PCs and nor does switching it back to 
the midi port. I see only ALSA ports being subscribed etc.
(filtering other midi messages)
This version send PCs whenever a new segment is encountered
during playback too.
It is presumably sending PCs on load too so that my M3 is set
up to start with.


under v17.12, selecting [no port] for the M3 bank sends out a
complete set of PCs for the M3 which sets up the M3 nicely!
such that when it is reconnected to midi it plays all the
correct instruments (but reconnecting does not send PCs).
This version does not send PCs on play it seems. 
The one thing that is not clear to me at this point is why
the 'send PC on load' in this version is succeeding with the
M1 but not with the M3 ???

I note what Michael has said about sending BS/PCs and upsetting
hardware configurations but it seems pointless to me to have 
instrument settings in a sequencer if you cannot use them to
configure your whole setup centrally. I don't want to have to
manually configure each hardware device for voice every time I
load a composition. For those that don't want or need RG to
configure their hardware an appropriate send filter ought to
be able to cater for that no?

thanks,
Chuck.



On Tue, 2017-07-18 at 10:58 -0400, Ted Felix wrote:
> On 07/18/2017 05:36 AM, chuck elliot wrote:
> > It seems that BS/PCs are sent out on load (v17.12) and my M1 responds to
> > these correctly but for some reason the M3 doesn't receive them.
> > 
> > I haven't been able to confirm this using kmidimon because loading
> > a file resets the internal connections and disconnects kmidimon.
> > 
> > Is there a way to load a file without resetting connectiions?
> 
>No.  However, you can resend the channel setups (BS/PCs) by changing 
> the port for the M3 and changing it back.  You might be able to do this 
> after you've got kmidimon hooked up and see if it works and what it is 
> sending.  Or you could switch to kmidimon, then switch to the M3 under 
> the assumption that the same things will go out (which is probably a 
> good assumption).  If everything looks good and the M3 doesn't respond, 
> then something we're sending is confusing the M3, or the M3 isn't 
> responding to PCs.
> 
>Studio > Manage MIDI Devices.  Select the M3-EDS (I assume) in MIDI 
> Playback.  Change the port to [No Port] and back to the proper 
> interface.  At that moment (or very soon after), a set of BS/PCs should 
> go out.
> 
>I did some light digging and only noticed two changes related to 
> CCs/BS/PCs between 16.02 and 16.06.  Neither of them mentioned taking 
> away sending of BS/PCs at playback.  Looks like I need to bisect.
> 
> Ted.



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Ted Felix]

On 07/17/2017 07:12 PM, chuck elliot wrote:

so it looks to me that under 16.02 RG sends out program change
messages according to what's set up in the studio every time
you press PLAY.

Under 17.12 RG does not send out program changes when you press
PLAY...


  I've confirmed this.  16.06 is the first version that doesn't send 
out BS/PCs when play is pressed starting from time zero.  This feels 
wrong to me.  I need to track down what changed and why.


  I did notice that BS/PCs do get sent out on load.  So, try this... 
Make sure your synths are on and connected.  Try loading a different .rg 
file (even just a File > New should do), then load the .rg file that 
talks to the M1 and M3.  This should cause BS/PCs to go out and your 
synths should be set up properly at this point.


Ted.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

so it looks to me that under 16.02 RG sends out program change
messages according to what's set up in the studio every time
you press PLAY.

Under 17.12 RG does not send out program changes when you press
PLAY...

Chuck.



On Sun, 2017-07-16 at 11:25 -0400, Ted Felix wrote:
> On 07/16/2017 07:06 AM, chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user wrote:
> > However, the M3 only behaves properly with v16.02.
> > With v17.12 It does not receive the correct instrument settings either
> > from the default studio setup or the composition studio setup when the
> > same composition is loaded.
> 
>Try rewinding to the start of the composition and pressing play. 
> There was a time when that cleared things up, so it might help.
> 
>You can also do a little troubleshooting by inserting kmidimon in the 
> path between rg and your M3.  It will show the MIDI traffic going across 
> and might provide more details as to what is/isn't working.
> 
>Can you assemble and post a small sample .rg file that has the problem?
> 
> Ted.
> 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

ok - under v16 I can see correct program changes being sent out while
playing the composition (piping M3 bank through kmidimon).

under v17.12 I am not seeing any program changes being sent out while
playing the composition and wrong instruments are sounding

Chuck.




On Sun, 2017-07-16 at 11:25 -0400, Ted Felix wrote:
> On 07/16/2017 07:06 AM, chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user wrote:
> > However, the M3 only behaves properly with v16.02.
> > With v17.12 It does not receive the correct instrument settings either
> > from the default studio setup or the composition studio setup when the
> > same composition is loaded.
> 
>Try rewinding to the start of the composition and pressing play. 
> There was a time when that cleared things up, so it might help.
> 
>You can also do a little troubleshooting by inserting kmidimon in the 
> path between rg and your M3.  It will show the MIDI traffic going across 
> and might provide more details as to what is/isn't working.
> 
>Can you assemble and post a small sample .rg file that has the problem?
> 
> Ted.
> 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[Ted Felix]

On 07/16/2017 07:06 AM, chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user wrote:

However, the M3 only behaves properly with v16.02.
With v17.12 It does not receive the correct instrument settings either
from the default studio setup or the composition studio setup when the
same composition is loaded.


  Try rewinding to the start of the composition and pressing play. 
There was a time when that cleared things up, so it might help.


  You can also do a little troubleshooting by inserting kmidimon in the 
path between rg and your M3.  It will show the MIDI traffic going across 
and might provide more details as to what is/isn't working.


  Can you assemble and post a small sample .rg file that has the problem?

Ted.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Lost instrument settings

[chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user]

Having dug a bit deeper the problem is more subtle.

I am using a Korg M1 and a Korg M3.
The M1 seems to behave as it should with both v16.02 and v17.12.
The default studio sends the correct instrument settings to the M1
and these are correctly overwritten by the composition studio when it
that is loaded.

However, the M3 only behaves properly with v16.02.
With v17.12 It does not receive the correct instrument settings either
from the default studio setup or the composition studio setup when the
same composition is loaded.





On Sat, 2017-07-15 at 21:19 -0400, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
> On 07/15/2017 05:58 AM, chuck elliot via Rosegarden-user wrote:
> 
> > instruments do not sound until I manually reset the program.
> > Then, even if I save the composition, the same thing happens
> > when I load it again. Have I missed something?
> 
> You missed a lengthy back and forth where Ted tried to sort all of that 
> stuff out, working closely with a guy who kept having and reporting 
> problems.  We thought all of that was sorted out, but maybe not.
> 
> Let's see.  Freshly started Sound Canvas.  Start RG.  Load the most 
> recent file I was working on.  Verify that it's still set to play 
> through the correct MIDI output.
> 
> In theory, my Sound Canvas should be showing programs on different 
> channels now.  Is it?
> 
> Yes.  Yes, it is.
> 
> This is with the latest SVN.
> 



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