Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi Davide, thank you for your advices. I'll give it a shot and will share my experiences. Sincerly On Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:38:35 -0800 (PST), Davide Sottara wrote: > Tohu is a relatively old, unofficial and inactive project. We're > refactoring > that as "drools-informer", > but that's work in progress and I'm not sure the jQuery web client > that > comes with tohu would still work. So I'd recommend to stick to tohu > for your > thesis (especially giving your time constraints :)) > > Feel free to contact me (dso...@gmail.com) if you have questions. I'm > sort-of-in-co-charge of monitoring drools research and I normally > tutor > bachelor/master students at the university. So, I'd be happy to share > advice > in exchange for information on where and how drools is being used as > a > research platform ;) > > -- > View this message in context: > > http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/rules-users-Data-Modeling-for-medical-expert-system-tp3490855p3494429.html > Sent from the Drools: User forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ___ > rules-users mailing list > rules-users@lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users -- Dirk Conzelmann IT-Services Telefon: +49.179.2237995 Email: i...@dirk-conzelmann.de Web: www.dirk-conzelmann.de ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Tohu is a relatively old, unofficial and inactive project. We're refactoring that as "drools-informer", but that's work in progress and I'm not sure the jQuery web client that comes with tohu would still work. So I'd recommend to stick to tohu for your thesis (especially giving your time constraints :)) Feel free to contact me (dso...@gmail.com) if you have questions. I'm sort-of-in-co-charge of monitoring drools research and I normally tutor bachelor/master students at the university. So, I'd be happy to share advice in exchange for information on where and how drools is being used as a research platform ;) -- View this message in context: http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/rules-users-Data-Modeling-for-medical-expert-system-tp3490855p3494429.html Sent from the Drools: User forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi Bruno, On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:46:45 +0100, Bruno Freudensprung wrote: > Hi Dirk, > > Good to see that I am not the only one fighting with that question > :-). > I guess the general answer is: it depends on how large your "enums" > might grow. > > For instance if your application is eventually supposed to help > diagnosing (say) all MeSH diseases based on all MeSH symptoms, then > an > approach where every symptom and disease is a Java class is not an > option; this would lead to so many classes that I doubt Drools user > interface will handle that, or will be useful anyway (drop-down lists > with thousands of items). Yes, Exactly! > > The opposite approach consists in creating a few "root" Java classes > like (say) Disease and Symptom and to store the MeSH hierarchy into a > "name" attribute. > The obvious drawback of the approach is that when your end-users will > have to write the rules, they will be left with problems like: > > when > Symptom(name == "well... what's the name of this MeSH > category??") > then > Disease(name == "hmmm... can't remember the exact name of the > disease as normalized in MeSH...") > end hehe yes, yes :) > > I've posted a message on this topic (subject: Thoughts about rule > authoring) and Michael Anstis kindly suggested a technical answer. I > am > afraid it did not fit my needs, but it could fit yours :-). Ok, i'll search for that later. > > For the moment I have no solution (like an intermediate approach) to > my > problem: I am stuck with approach #2. > I have the impression that my problem requires a very tight > integration > between my database (MeSH) and the Drools suggestion engine. > > If you have another approach, I would love to know it ;-). Yes, i'll let you know. btw. i received a pretty interesting message from 'davide' a few moments ago. http://www.jboss.org/tohu https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance/tree/master/drools-informer Maybe this will help you too :) > > Best regards, > > Bruno. > > Le 08/11/2011 17:43, Dirk Conzelmann a écrit : >> Hi everybody, >> >> I am using Drools as a part of my Bachelor Thesis. >> My job is to build an expert system for medical diagnoses. >> >> My Question: >> Is there a best practice known in modeling a variable >> list of questions and answers in Drools? >> >> >> Up to now I modeled the list of questions implementing >> Java Classes and Enums for each question/answer pair. >> >> But to be able to change those options easyly I need >> a higher abstraction level than simple Java Classes and Enums. >> >> >> Could someone show me an example how to implement this? >> >> >> I hope I have explained my question understandable :) >> >> > > ___ > rules-users mailing list > rules-users@lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users -- Dirk Conzelmann IT-Services Telefon: +49.179.2237995 Email: i...@dirk-conzelmann.de Web: www.dirk-conzelmann.de ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi Davide and the other users too, thank you all for your interesting links. I´ll think that 'tohu' really seams the solution for that problem. I think it is rather interesting that after spending my first weeks on Drools reading the documentation I never saw any link pointing to 'tohu'. :) Thanks very much, I´ll share my experiences. Despite from being interested in this aproach, I have to adjust my tasks for being able to finish my Bachelor Thesis in the given amount of time. On Wed, 9 Nov 2011 00:53:18 -0800 (PST), Davide Sottara wrote: > Hi Dirk, > > you might want to take a look at this: > http://www.jboss.org/tohu > > This is an interesting but rather old project. We're also working on > a > slightly refactored version here: > > https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance/tree/master/drools-informer > > The project provides a dynamic "question/answer" framework and > supports GUI > interfaces. > > As for the /content/ of the questions, it seems that you need some > medical > vocabulary. > Hand-coding enum-equivalent lists may be an overwhelming task, > depending on > how "realistic" > your system has to be. We're dealing with similar problems in another > project, including the > predictive modelling techniques for the actual inference. > If you want to share thoughts, let me know. > > Cheers > Davide > > > -- > View this message in context: > > http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/rules-users-Data-Modeling-for-medical-expert-system-tp3490855p3492965.html > Sent from the Drools: User forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ___ > rules-users mailing list > rules-users@lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users -- Dirk Conzelmann IT-Services Telefon: +49.179.2237995 Email: i...@dirk-conzelmann.de Web: www.dirk-conzelmann.de ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi Dirk, you might want to take a look at this: http://www.jboss.org/tohu This is an interesting but rather old project. We're also working on a slightly refactored version here: https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance/tree/master/drools-informer The project provides a dynamic "question/answer" framework and supports GUI interfaces. As for the /content/ of the questions, it seems that you need some medical vocabulary. Hand-coding enum-equivalent lists may be an overwhelming task, depending on how "realistic" your system has to be. We're dealing with similar problems in another project, including the predictive modelling techniques for the actual inference. If you want to share thoughts, let me know. Cheers Davide -- View this message in context: http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/rules-users-Data-Modeling-for-medical-expert-system-tp3490855p3492965.html Sent from the Drools: User forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi, Thanks a lot, to you and Vincent, for your very interesting answers! So far I decided to use Drools without Guvnor (only Eclipse) but now I realize I really should take a close look at it. Best regards, Bruno. Le 08/11/2011 20:47, gpa...@tsys.com a écrit : I am in the same situation (and I suspect a lot of people with complex domain models are), which is: how do I let the user easily navigate my domain model while writing a rule. There is support for providing a custom form within a popup when a fact constraint needs to be specified. You can present it to the user whenever a fact constraint needs to be supplied to the rule. Since you are providing the contents of the custom form, you can represent your domain however you wish to, navigate it perhaps using a tree, or even let the user perform a mini search to get to the "MeSH category". The custom form does not currently work with DSLs though, if you are planning on using DSL sentences. But you can write your own DSL widget that does (not too difficult, if you know GWT). For my project, the biggest utility value of drools is the standalone editor, the Guvnor rest api and the fact that it is opensource (so that I can customize it for my very complex needs) Thanks G. Patel ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
I am in the same situation (and I suspect a lot of people with complex domain models are), which is: how do I let the user easily navigate my domain model while writing a rule. There is support for providing a custom form within a popup when a fact constraint needs to be specified. You can present it to the user whenever a fact constraint needs to be supplied to the rule. Since you are providing the contents of the custom form, you can represent your domain however you wish to, navigate it perhaps using a tree, or even let the user perform a mini search to get to the "MeSH category". The custom form does not currently work with DSLs though, if you are planning on using DSL sentences. But you can write your own DSL widget that does (not too difficult, if you know GWT). For my project, the biggest utility value of drools is the standalone editor, the Guvnor rest api and the fact that it is opensource (so that I can customize it for my very complex needs) Thanks G. Patel From: Bruno Freudensprung To: Rules Users List Date: 11/08/2011 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system Sent by:rules-users-boun...@lists.jboss.org Hi Dirk, Good to see that I am not the only one fighting with that question :-). I guess the general answer is: it depends on how large your "enums" might grow. For instance if your application is eventually supposed to help diagnosing (say) all MeSH diseases based on all MeSH symptoms, then an approach where every symptom and disease is a Java class is not an option; this would lead to so many classes that I doubt Drools user interface will handle that, or will be useful anyway (drop-down lists with thousands of items). The opposite approach consists in creating a few "root" Java classes like (say) Disease and Symptom and to store the MeSH hierarchy into a "name" attribute. The obvious drawback of the approach is that when your end-users will have to write the rules, they will be left with problems like: when Symptom(name == "well... what's the name of this MeSH category??") then Disease(name == "hmmm... can't remember the exact name of the disease as normalized in MeSH...") end I've posted a message on this topic (subject: Thoughts about rule authoring) and Michael Anstis kindly suggested a technical answer. I am afraid it did not fit my needs, but it could fit yours :-). For the moment I have no solution (like an intermediate approach) to my problem: I am stuck with approach #2. I have the impression that my problem requires a very tight integration between my database (MeSH) and the Drools suggestion engine. If you have another approach, I would love to know it ;-). Best regards, Bruno. Le 08/11/2011 17:43, Dirk Conzelmann a écrit : > Hi everybody, > > I am using Drools as a part of my Bachelor Thesis. > My job is to build an expert system for medical diagnoses. > > My Question: > Is there a best practice known in modeling a variable > list of questions and answers in Drools? > > > Up to now I modeled the list of questions implementing > Java Classes and Enums for each question/answer pair. > > But to be able to change those options easyly I need > a higher abstraction level than simple Java Classes and Enums. > > > Could someone show me an example how to implement this? > > > I hope I have explained my question understandable :) > > ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
You can use dynamic enums in Guvnor (that create dynamic populated listboxes). See guvnor's doc chapter "1.4.2.4.8. Data enumerations (drop down list configurations)" For your case where number of items are really huge, you may consider using custom editors (again, in Guvnor), and implement a js page that contains some listbox (as many as level of classification in your hierarchy) or directly a tree to select the value. See "custom editor" and "working set" part of Guvnor's doc. If you are under Eclipse, well, Drools suggestion engine modification may be the only way. ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
Re: [rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi Dirk, Good to see that I am not the only one fighting with that question :-). I guess the general answer is: it depends on how large your "enums" might grow. For instance if your application is eventually supposed to help diagnosing (say) all MeSH diseases based on all MeSH symptoms, then an approach where every symptom and disease is a Java class is not an option; this would lead to so many classes that I doubt Drools user interface will handle that, or will be useful anyway (drop-down lists with thousands of items). The opposite approach consists in creating a few "root" Java classes like (say) Disease and Symptom and to store the MeSH hierarchy into a "name" attribute. The obvious drawback of the approach is that when your end-users will have to write the rules, they will be left with problems like: when Symptom(name == "well... what's the name of this MeSH category??") then Disease(name == "hmmm... can't remember the exact name of the disease as normalized in MeSH...") end I've posted a message on this topic (subject: Thoughts about rule authoring) and Michael Anstis kindly suggested a technical answer. I am afraid it did not fit my needs, but it could fit yours :-). For the moment I have no solution (like an intermediate approach) to my problem: I am stuck with approach #2. I have the impression that my problem requires a very tight integration between my database (MeSH) and the Drools suggestion engine. If you have another approach, I would love to know it ;-). Best regards, Bruno. Le 08/11/2011 17:43, Dirk Conzelmann a écrit : > Hi everybody, > > I am using Drools as a part of my Bachelor Thesis. > My job is to build an expert system for medical diagnoses. > > My Question: > Is there a best practice known in modeling a variable > list of questions and answers in Drools? > > > Up to now I modeled the list of questions implementing > Java Classes and Enums for each question/answer pair. > > But to be able to change those options easyly I need > a higher abstraction level than simple Java Classes and Enums. > > > Could someone show me an example how to implement this? > > > I hope I have explained my question understandable :) > > ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
[rules-users] Data Modeling for medical expert system
Hi everybody, I am using Drools as a part of my Bachelor Thesis. My job is to build an expert system for medical diagnoses. My Question: Is there a best practice known in modeling a variable list of questions and answers in Drools? Up to now I modeled the list of questions implementing Java Classes and Enums for each question/answer pair. But to be able to change those options easyly I need a higher abstraction level than simple Java Classes and Enums. Could someone show me an example how to implement this? I hope I have explained my question understandable :) -- Dirk Conzelmann IT-Services Telefon: +49.179.2237995 Email: i...@dirk-conzelmann.de Web: www.dirk-conzelmann.de ___ rules-users mailing list rules-users@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
