Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-18 Thread Franco Saliola


On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 2:05:54 PM UTC-4, Volker Braun wrote:
>
> On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 1:27:30 AM UTC+2, William wrote:
>>
>> I'm also curious if anybody has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions 
>> about how to address this 
>> problem using new ideas. 
>
>
> Use Docker (or boot2docker on OSX and Windows) to build and run Sage. 
>
> Pro: Instant windows port. Boot2docker bundles VirtualBox. Kitematic 
> installs boot2docker as part of its install, we could just copy that. Gives 
> us a reproducable build environment with a guaranteed working toolchain. 
>
> Con: Requires 64-bit and VT-x. Some Windows boxes still ship with VT-x 
> disabled in the bios. A bit less efficient than native.
>

I just tried this out on a 2011 imac and it worked very well. It was all 
very smooth. This is for the 6.7 release.

How difficult would it be to automatically create a docker image for each 
development version?

To do actual development, one would also want git, the git-trac command, a 
way to launch a terminal in the virtual machine (in general, a way to edit 
files). Can you update the README.md with hints on how to go about doing 
this?

https://github.com/sagemath/docker

Franco

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-13 Thread Volker Braun
On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 1:27:30 AM UTC+2, William wrote:
>
> I'm also curious if anybody has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions 
> about how to address this 
> problem using new ideas. 


Use Docker (or boot2docker on OSX and Windows) to build and run Sage. 

Pro: Instant windows port. Boot2docker bundles VirtualBox. Kitematic 
installs boot2docker as part of its install, we could just copy that. Gives 
us a reproducable build environment with a guaranteed working toolchain. 

Con: Requires 64-bit and VT-x. Some Windows boxes still ship with VT-x 
disabled in the bios. A bit less efficient than native.

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Re: Copying installations on SMC (was: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report)

2015-06-13 Thread Darij Grinberg
Hi Franco,

thank you! I'm trying to follow the instructions now.

Step 3: maybe explain how to tell when the copying is complete? I
think it took more than 3min for me (I used "du -s" to check on it).

Step 4:
IOError: [Errno 122] Disk quota exceeded

What should I do?

  Best regards,
  Darij

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Franco Saliola  wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 6:15:44 AM UTC-5, Darij Grinberg wrote:
>>
>> Hi Anne,
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Anne Schilling 
>> wrote:
>> > The SageMathCloud was great for those who had trouble installing Sage on
>> > their own computer. Sometimes we had connection issues to the SMC (the 
>> > wheel
>> > was just spinning). Franco gave a nice talk on how to copy the latest
>> > version onto one's own Sage developer project. That saves to actually run
>> > the install (so Darij, your "complaints" are not really valid since copying
>> > only takes a few minutes).
>>
>> This could simplify my life a lot! Is there a tutorial on this somewhere?
>
>
> I posted something on the SMC wiki (with a link to it in the FAQ). It is the
> result of a few iterations of the process.
>
>
> https://github.com/sagemathinc/smc/wiki/SageMath-Development-on-SageMathCloud
>
> I've used this for a few reviews now from start to finish. It works quite
> well. Coupled with the fact that you can ssh into a project (not necessary,
> but I find it useful), I'm very happy with this on my 6 year old laptop.
> This even works well on Chromebooks.
>
> A big thanks to William for SMC and upgrading accounts for development, and
> thanks to Rob Beezer for maintaining the Sage Development Images public
> project.
>
> Franco
>
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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-13 Thread Franco Saliola
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Volker Braun  wrote:

> On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 5:03:02 AM UTC+2, Franco Saliola wrote:
>>
>> Most of these problems were related to installing on Macs: various
>> different OS versions (10.10, 10.9, 10.8, ...); XCode versions
>>
>
> Apple does not support OSX < 10.10, so I don't see how we could (or
> should).
>

Sometimes there are obstacles that prevent for people from upgrading to
10.10 for a few months. Here is an example from a Sage Days participant:
their university VPN doesn't (yet) work on 10.10, so he has been holding
off an upgrading. As a result, he can't do any Sage development cause Sage
doesn't compile on 10.9. I think this problem on holding off on upgrading
until a certain software is compatible with the new OS is very common.

I'm not advocating that we support older versions (nor am I against this).
But I don't think we should base our decision on what Apple does.

(3) A computer scientist who participated in part of the Sage Days said
>> that perhaps using Travis CI
>>
>
> The travis-ci build environment is the same docker image everywhere (on
> each OS). You can not test a large variety of OS'es that way.
>

Thanks! As I said, I don't know anything about travis-ci, so this answer
helped me understand things a bit better.

Franco

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-13 Thread Franco Saliola
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Franco Saliola  wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 6:27:28 PM UTC-5, William Stein wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Franco Saliola 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Here is a mini report on Sage Day 65. I'm not an organizer so this is
>> not
>> > official.
>> > Thanks to Anne Schilling for helping to prepare this.
>> >
>> > - 24 tickets on trac are tagged with `sagedays65` or `sd65`. Some of
>> these
>> > have
>> >   been positively reviewed and marked as fixed. Some are waiting for
>> review
>> >   (hint, hint). Several of these tickets include contributions from new
>> > users.
>> >
>> > - Installation troubles:
>> >
>> > - several people had a hard difficult time installing Sage on their
>> >   machines (8-10 people)
>> >
>> > - there were people who did not have a working development version
>> on
>> > their
>> >   machines by the end of the week (4-5 people); two of these people
>> were
>> >   the organizers of the Sage Days
>>
>> This is a bummer.  It gives me even more motivation to make
>> SageMathCloud Sage-developer friendly.I'm also curious if anybody
>> has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions about how to address this
>> problem using new ideas.
>>
>
> Most of these problems were related to installing on Macs: various
> different OS versions (10.10, 10.9, 10.8, ...); XCode versions; command
> line tools out of date;  Perhaps an enhanced build test system might
> help.
>
> Some ideas (mostly questions):
>
> (1) Would it be possible to maintain a list of known compilation errors?
> The build process could check online if the error message matches one of
> the known issues and then return links to a page with information (possible
> workarounds, appropriate trac tickets)?
>

Another idea along these lines. When a build fails, there is a message that
suggests a user send an email to sage-devel. From my experience, *many*
people don't do this. At Sage Days, they ask a neighbour. At home, they'll
ask a Sage person the next time they run into them, or they send an email
to a Sage friend, 

But information about these build failures could be useful. So maybe when a
build fails, there can be a message that says something like: "Would you
like to send an error report to the Sage development team? This will
include information about your operating system and the log files of the
build process. [Y/n]".

Franco

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Re: Copying installations on SMC (was: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report)

2015-06-13 Thread Franco Saliola


On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 6:15:44 AM UTC-5, Darij Grinberg wrote:
>
> Hi Anne, 
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Anne Schilling  > wrote: 
> > The SageMathCloud was great for those who had trouble installing Sage on 
> their own computer. Sometimes we had connection issues to the SMC (the 
> wheel was just spinning). Franco gave a nice talk on how to copy the latest 
> version onto one's own Sage developer project. That saves to actually run 
> the install (so Darij, your "complaints" are not really valid since copying 
> only takes a few minutes). 
>
> This could simplify my life a lot! Is there a tutorial on this somewhere?  
>

I posted something on the SMC wiki (with a link to it in the FAQ). It is 
the result of a few iterations of the process.


https://github.com/sagemathinc/smc/wiki/SageMath-Development-on-SageMathCloud

I've used this for a few reviews now from start to finish. It works quite 
well. Coupled with the fact that you can ssh into a project (not necessary, 
but I find it useful), I'm very happy with this on my 6 year old laptop. 
This even works well on Chromebooks.

A big thanks to William for SMC and upgrading accounts for development, and 
thanks to Rob Beezer for maintaining the Sage Development Images public 
project.

Franco

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Copying installations on SMC (was: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report)

2015-06-13 Thread Darij Grinberg
Hi Anne,

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Anne Schilling  wrote:
> The SageMathCloud was great for those who had trouble installing Sage on 
> their own computer. Sometimes we had connection issues to the SMC (the wheel 
> was just spinning). Franco gave a nice talk on how to copy the latest version 
> onto one's own Sage developer project. That saves to actually run the install 
> (so Darij, your "complaints" are not really valid since copying only takes a 
> few minutes).

This could simplify my life a lot! Is there a tutorial on this somewhere?

  Best regards,
  Darij

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-13 Thread Volker Braun
On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 5:03:02 AM UTC+2, Franco Saliola wrote:
>
> Most of these problems were related to installing on Macs: various 
> different OS versions (10.10, 10.9, 10.8, ...); XCode versions
>

Apple does not support OSX < 10.10, so I don't see how we could (or should).

(3) A computer scientist who participated in part of the Sage Days said 
> that perhaps using Travis CI
>

The travis-ci build environment is the same docker image everywhere (on 
each OS). You can not test a large variety of OS'es that way.

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread Franco Saliola


On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 6:27:28 PM UTC-5, William Stein wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Franco Saliola  
> wrote: 
> > 
> > Here is a mini report on Sage Day 65. I'm not an organizer so this is 
> not 
> > official. 
> > Thanks to Anne Schilling for helping to prepare this. 
> > 
> > - 24 tickets on trac are tagged with `sagedays65` or `sd65`. Some of 
> these 
> > have 
> >   been positively reviewed and marked as fixed. Some are waiting for 
> review 
> >   (hint, hint). Several of these tickets include contributions from new 
> > users. 
> > 
> > - Installation troubles: 
> > 
> > - several people had a hard difficult time installing Sage on their 
> >   machines (8-10 people) 
> > 
> > - there were people who did not have a working development version 
> on 
> > their 
> >   machines by the end of the week (4-5 people); two of these people 
> were 
> >   the organizers of the Sage Days 
>
> This is a bummer.  It gives me even more motivation to make 
> SageMathCloud Sage-developer friendly.I'm also curious if anybody 
> has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions about how to address this 
> problem using new ideas.
>

Most of these problems were related to installing on Macs: various 
different OS versions (10.10, 10.9, 10.8, ...); XCode versions; command 
line tools out of date;  Perhaps an enhanced build test system might 
help.

Some ideas (mostly questions):

(1) Would it be possible to maintain a list of known compilation errors? 
The build process could check online if the error message matches one of 
the known issues and then return links to a page with information (possible 
workarounds, appropriate trac tickets)?

(2) Could we release bundles or dmgs or whatever they are called for the 
*developer* version for OS X?

(3) A computer scientist who participated in part of the Sage Days said 
that perhaps using Travis CI could help with some of this. I don't know 
anything about this, but maybe someone with Travis experience could say 
whether this might help?

Franco

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread Mike Zabrocki


> If you are asking for ideas, I'm wondering: how hard would it be to 
> give the user better information and better options in the case when a 
> Sage install fails due to a package? 
>
I'll add a +1 for this idea.
I helped Stephen Doty install the development version of Sage on his 
machine while we were there and the process involved asking for help at 
sage-devel.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/sage-devel/_jY4yj9NcZc
There was a simple fix and a quick response, but I had to know who and 
where to ask.

-Mike 

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread William Stein
On Friday, June 12, 2015, Anne Schilling  wrote:

> Actually, Peter Tingley's Sage was not working due to some git problems
> (committing on top of the develop branch)! That has been fixed. So it was
> not really an install problem.
>
> The SageMathCloud was great for those who had trouble installing Sage on
> their own computer. Sometimes we had connection issues to the SMC (the
> wheel was just spinning). Franco gave a nice talk on how



A fixed a bug that causes this today.  Email me if you see it



> to copy the latest version onto one's own Sage developer project. That
> saves to actually run the install (so Darij, your "complaints" are not
> really valid since copying only takes a few minutes).
>
> Best,
>
> Anne
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 2015, at 18:26, William Stein  > wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Franco Saliola  > wrote:
> >>
> >> Here is a mini report on Sage Day 65. I'm not an organizer so this is
> not
> >> official.
> >> Thanks to Anne Schilling for helping to prepare this.
> >>
> >> - 24 tickets on trac are tagged with `sagedays65` or `sd65`. Some of
> these
> >> have
> >>  been positively reviewed and marked as fixed. Some are waiting for
> review
> >>  (hint, hint). Several of these tickets include contributions from new
> >> users.
> >>
> >> - Installation troubles:
> >>
> >>- several people had a hard difficult time installing Sage on their
> >>  machines (8-10 people)
> >>
> >>- there were people who did not have a working development version on
> >> their
> >>  machines by the end of the week (4-5 people); two of these people
> were
> >>  the organizers of the Sage Days
> >
> > This is a bummer.  It gives me even more motivation to make
> > SageMathCloud Sage-developer friendly.I'm also curious if anybody
> > has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions about how to address this
> > problem using new ideas.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>- number of participants: 40
> >>
> >>- some thing that really helped was the Sage Development Images
> project
> >>
> >> - A possible warning to future organizers of Sage Days: We had good
> internet
> >>  access, but the university network blocked all ssh connections! This
> was
> >>  mainly resolved on the first day, but there were still some issues with
> >>  pulling/pushing through the `git trac` command.
> >>
> >> Franco
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >> "sage-combinat-devel" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an
> >> email to sage-combinat-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
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> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-combinat-devel.
> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > William (http://wstein.org)
> >
> > --
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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread Anne Schilling
Actually, Peter Tingley's Sage was not working due to some git problems 
(committing on top of the develop branch)! That has been fixed. So it was not 
really an install problem.

The SageMathCloud was great for those who had trouble installing Sage on their 
own computer. Sometimes we had connection issues to the SMC (the wheel was just 
spinning). Franco gave a nice talk on how to copy the latest version onto one's 
own Sage developer project. That saves to actually run the install (so Darij, 
your "complaints" are not really valid since copying only takes a few minutes).

Best,

Anne



> On Jun 12, 2015, at 18:26, William Stein  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Franco Saliola  wrote:
>> 
>> Here is a mini report on Sage Day 65. I'm not an organizer so this is not
>> official.
>> Thanks to Anne Schilling for helping to prepare this.
>> 
>> - 24 tickets on trac are tagged with `sagedays65` or `sd65`. Some of these
>> have
>>  been positively reviewed and marked as fixed. Some are waiting for review
>>  (hint, hint). Several of these tickets include contributions from new
>> users.
>> 
>> - Installation troubles:
>> 
>>- several people had a hard difficult time installing Sage on their
>>  machines (8-10 people)
>> 
>>- there were people who did not have a working development version on
>> their
>>  machines by the end of the week (4-5 people); two of these people were
>>  the organizers of the Sage Days
> 
> This is a bummer.  It gives me even more motivation to make
> SageMathCloud Sage-developer friendly.I'm also curious if anybody
> has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions about how to address this
> problem using new ideas.
> 
> 
>> 
>>- number of participants: 40
>> 
>>- some thing that really helped was the Sage Development Images project
>> 
>> - A possible warning to future organizers of Sage Days: We had good internet
>>  access, but the university network blocked all ssh connections! This was
>>  mainly resolved on the first day, but there were still some issues with
>>  pulling/pushing through the `git trac` command.
>> 
>> Franco
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-combinat-devel.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> William (http://wstein.org)
> 
> -- 
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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread Darij Grinberg
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 1:26 AM, William Stein  wrote:
> This is a bummer.  It gives me even more motivation to make
> SageMathCloud Sage-developer friendly.I'm also curious if anybody
> has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions about how to address this
> problem using new ideas.

+1 for a friendlier SMC; I definitely wouldn't mind it not falling
asleep on compile :)

If you are asking for ideas, I'm wondering: how hard would it be to
give the user better information and better options in the case when a
Sage install fails due to a package? In many cases the actual errors
are laughable and the packages far from crucial; particularly optional
packages shouldn't be causing a build to break! I don't know how
flexible makefiles are, but I would love it to wrap the installation
of a package in a way like this:
- If the package installs fine, do nothing extra.
- If it does not, add a clear error at the end of the log, naming the
package and the version. Name the other packages which depend on the
one that didn't install. Tell the user how to sidestep the
installation of the package (at their own risk). Mention the email
addresses of the people that should care about the problem (package
maintainer, build manager, sagedevel?) and what to send them.
- Allow the user to pull an older version of the package.

Would this be difficult?

  Best regards,
  Darij

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread William Stein
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Franco Saliola  wrote:
>
> Here is a mini report on Sage Day 65. I'm not an organizer so this is not
> official.
> Thanks to Anne Schilling for helping to prepare this.
>
> - 24 tickets on trac are tagged with `sagedays65` or `sd65`. Some of these
> have
>   been positively reviewed and marked as fixed. Some are waiting for review
>   (hint, hint). Several of these tickets include contributions from new
> users.
>
> - Installation troubles:
>
> - several people had a hard difficult time installing Sage on their
>   machines (8-10 people)
>
> - there were people who did not have a working development version on
> their
>   machines by the end of the week (4-5 people); two of these people were
>   the organizers of the Sage Days

This is a bummer.  It gives me even more motivation to make
SageMathCloud Sage-developer friendly.I'm also curious if anybody
has any -- possibly *radical* -- suggestions about how to address this
problem using new ideas.


>
> - number of participants: 40
>
> - some thing that really helped was the Sage Development Images project
>
> - A possible warning to future organizers of Sage Days: We had good internet
>   access, but the university network blocked all ssh connections! This was
>   mainly resolved on the first day, but there were still some issues with
>   pulling/pushing through the `git trac` command.
>
> Franco
>
> --
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-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 65 mini report

2015-06-12 Thread Franco Saliola
Here is a mini report on Sage Day 65. I'm not an organizer so this is not
official.
Thanks to Anne Schilling for helping to prepare this.

- 24 tickets on trac are tagged with `sagedays65` or `sd65`. Some of these
have
  been positively reviewed and marked as fixed. Some are waiting for review
  (hint, hint). Several of these tickets include contributions from new
users.

- Installation troubles:

- several people had a hard difficult time installing Sage on their
  machines (8-10 people)

- there were people who did not have a working development version on
their
  machines by the end of the week (4-5 people); two of these people were
  the organizers of the Sage Days

- number of participants: 40

- some thing that really helped was the Sage Development Images project

- A possible warning to future organizers of Sage Days: We had good internet
  access, but the university network blocked all ssh connections! This was
  mainly resolved on the first day, but there were still some issues with
  pulling/pushing through the `git trac` command.

Franco

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