Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-29 Thread Samuel Lelievre 


Le jeudi 28 janvier 2016 20:15:59 UTC+1, bluescarni a écrit :
>
> Ah thanks for the pointer, it took some google fu
> to get finally to his website. In case anyone is interested:
>
> http://www.cas-testing.org/
>

... from where one gets more:

http://www.cas-testing.org/
http://www.cas-testing.org/index.php?list=7

http://www.cybertester.com/
http://www.cybertester.com/contact.php

Company Name: Cyber Tester Ltd.
Address: 3/4 Zadorozhny Str, Simferopol, Crimea 95047, Ukraine
Primary Contact: Vladimir V. Bondarenko 
Phone: +380-953-866-894
Fax: +380-652-668-356
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-28 Thread Francesco Biscani 
I am not a Mathematica user, so I cannot really comment about Mathematica's
flaws

(Incidentally, I remember some years ago someone built a system to feed
random input to CASes, with which he found many mathematical bugs in the
big Ms. I wonder if he's still doing it?)

But the fact that it is a black box should be a showstopper for any serious
use in research.

On 26 January 2016 at 22:05, rjf  wrote:

> I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as
> a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source.
>
> But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the
> ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while.
> RjF
>
> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni wrote:
>>
>> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use
>> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in.
>>
>> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  wrote:
>>
>>> There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
>>> is mentioned a few times:
>>>
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666
>>>
>>> I have the impression very few of the comments are from
>>> mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
>>> interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
>>> software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
>>> group of potential users.
>>>
>>>  -- William
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-28 Thread William Stein 
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Francesco Biscani  wrote:
> I am not a Mathematica user, so I cannot really comment about Mathematica's
> flaws
>
> (Incidentally, I remember some years ago someone built a system to feed
> random input to CASes, with which he found many mathematical bugs in the big
> Ms. I wonder if he's still doing it?)
>

That's v...@ukr.net, who is subscribed to this list, often posts about
Ukraine-related issues here, and has spoken at Sage Days in the past.
 I really apprecaite that he put hard work into showing that these
black boxes shouldn't be trusted.

William

> But the fact that it is a black box should be a showstopper for any serious
> use in research.
>
> On 26 January 2016 at 22:05, rjf  wrote:
>>
>> I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as
>> a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source.
>>
>> But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the
>> ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while.
>> RjF
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni wrote:
>>>
>>> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use
>>> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in.
>>>
>>> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  wrote:

 There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
 is mentioned a few times:

 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666

 I have the impression very few of the comments are from
 mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
 interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
 software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
 group of potential users.

  -- William

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>>>
>>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-28 Thread William Stein 
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Thierry
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:39:06AM -0800, William Stein wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Francesco Biscani  
>> wrote:
>> > I am not a Mathematica user, so I cannot really comment about Mathematica's
>> > flaws
>> >
>> > (Incidentally, I remember some years ago someone built a system to feed
>> > random input to CASes, with which he found many mathematical bugs in the 
>> > big
>> > Ms. I wonder if he's still doing it?)
>> >
>>
>> That's v...@ukr.net, who is subscribed to this list, often posts about
>> Ukraine-related issues here, and has spoken at Sage Days in the past.
>>  I really apprecaite that he put hard work into showing that these
>> black boxes shouldn't be trusted.
>
> Great, i hope he also attacks Sage the same way, so that we get an
> hardened system, this is somehow dual to the unit tests we have right now.
>
> If some scripts are available somewhere, i would be glad to have a look
> and let them run for a while within some VM.

He wrote everything in a language called "Delphi" (or something like
that) -- I think a Pascal dialect. I don't think he made his code
available.  I think he did in the past find many issues with Sage
symbolic too, which we benefited from.

 -- William

>
> Ciao,
> Thierry
>
>
>> William
>>
>> > But the fact that it is a black box should be a showstopper for any serious
>> > use in research.
>> >
>> > On 26 January 2016 at 22:05, rjf  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as
>> >> a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source.
>> >>
>> >> But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the
>> >> ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while.
>> >> RjF
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use
>> >>> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  wrote:
>> 
>>  There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
>>  is mentioned a few times:
>> 
>>  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666
>> 
>>  I have the impression very few of the comments are from
>>  mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
>>  interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
>>  software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
>>  group of potential users.
>> 
>>   -- William
>> 
>>  --
>>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>  Groups "sage-devel" group.
>>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>  an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> --
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>>
>>
>> --
>> William (http://wstein.org)
>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-28 Thread Francesco Biscani 
Ah thanks for the pointer, it took some google fu to get finally to his
website. In case anyone is interested:

http://www.cas-testing.org/



On 28 January 2016 at 18:39, William Stein  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Francesco Biscani 
> wrote:
> > I am not a Mathematica user, so I cannot really comment about
> Mathematica's
> > flaws
> >
> > (Incidentally, I remember some years ago someone built a system to feed
> > random input to CASes, with which he found many mathematical bugs in the
> big
> > Ms. I wonder if he's still doing it?)
> >
>
> That's v...@ukr.net, who is subscribed to this list, often posts about
> Ukraine-related issues here, and has spoken at Sage Days in the past.
>  I really apprecaite that he put hard work into showing that these
> black boxes shouldn't be trusted.
>
> William
>
> > But the fact that it is a black box should be a showstopper for any
> serious
> > use in research.
> >
> > On 26 January 2016 at 22:05, rjf  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as
> >> a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source.
> >>
> >> But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the
> >> ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while.
> >> RjF
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use
> >>> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in.
> >>>
> >>> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  wrote:
> 
>  There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
>  is mentioned a few times:
> 
>  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666
> 
>  I have the impression very few of the comments are from
>  mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
>  interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
>  software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
>  group of potential users.
> 
>   -- William
> 
>  --
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>  Groups "sage-devel" group.
>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>  an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
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> Groups
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> an
> >> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> >
> >
> > --
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>
>
>
> --
> William (http://wstein.org)
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-28 Thread Dima Pasechnik 


On Thursday, 28 January 2016 18:04:12 UTC, William wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Thierry 
>  wrote: 
> > Hi, 
> > 
> > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:39:06AM -0800, William Stein wrote: 
> >> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Francesco Biscani  > wrote: 
> >> > I am not a Mathematica user, so I cannot really comment about 
> Mathematica's 
> >> > flaws 
> >> > 
> >> > (Incidentally, I remember some years ago someone built a system to 
> feed 
> >> > random input to CASes, with which he found many mathematical bugs in 
> the big 
> >> > Ms. I wonder if he's still doing it?) 
> >> > 
> >> 
> >> That's v_...@ukr.net , who is subscribed to this list, 
> often posts about 
> >> Ukraine-related issues here, and has spoken at Sage Days in the past. 
> >>  I really apprecaite that he put hard work into showing that these 
> >> black boxes shouldn't be trusted. 
> > 
> > Great, i hope he also attacks Sage the same way, so that we get an 
> > hardened system, this is somehow dual to the unit tests we have right 
> now. 
> > 
> > If some scripts are available somewhere, i would be glad to have a look 
> > and let them run for a while within some VM. 
>
> He wrote everything in a language called "Delphi" (or something like 
> that) -- I think a Pascal dialect. I don't think he made his code 
> available.  I think he did in the past find many issues with Sage 
> symbolic too, which we benefited from. 
>

Delphi ts the continuation of Turbo Pascal by Borland

Dima
(feeling strangely nostalgic :)
PS. I did use Borland's Turbo C in my previous life...


 

>
>  -- William 
>
> > 
> > Ciao, 
> > Thierry 
> > 
> > 
> >> William 
> >> 
> >> > But the fact that it is a black box should be a showstopper for any 
> serious 
> >> > use in research. 
> >> > 
> >> > On 26 January 2016 at 22:05, rjf  
> wrote: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as 
> >> >> a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the 
> >> >> ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while. 
> >> >> RjF 
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni 
> wrote: 
> >> >>> 
> >> >>> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not 
> use 
> >> >>> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in. 
> >> >>> 
> >> >>> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  
> wrote: 
> >>  
> >>  There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which 
> Sage 
> >>  is mentioned a few times: 
> >>  
> >>  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666 
> >>  
> >>  I have the impression very few of the comments are from 
> >>  mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments 
> >>  interesting, since they reflect how open source math and 
> scientific 
> >>  software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by 
> one 
> >>  group of potential users. 
> >>  
> >>   -- William 
> >>  
> >>  -- 
> >>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >>  Groups "sage-devel" group. 
> >>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
> send 
> >>  an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. 
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> >>  Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. 
> >>  For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
> >> >>> 
> >> >>> 
> >> >> -- 
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> Groups 
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> send an 
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> . 
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> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > -- 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> William (http://wstein.org) 
> >> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-28 Thread Thierry 
Hi,

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:39:06AM -0800, William Stein wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Francesco Biscani  
> wrote:
> > I am not a Mathematica user, so I cannot really comment about Mathematica's
> > flaws
> >
> > (Incidentally, I remember some years ago someone built a system to feed
> > random input to CASes, with which he found many mathematical bugs in the big
> > Ms. I wonder if he's still doing it?)
> >
> 
> That's v...@ukr.net, who is subscribed to this list, often posts about
> Ukraine-related issues here, and has spoken at Sage Days in the past.
>  I really apprecaite that he put hard work into showing that these
> black boxes shouldn't be trusted.

Great, i hope he also attacks Sage the same way, so that we get an
hardened system, this is somehow dual to the unit tests we have right now.

If some scripts are available somewhere, i would be glad to have a look
and let them run for a while within some VM.

Ciao,
Thierry


> William
> 
> > But the fact that it is a black box should be a showstopper for any serious
> > use in research.
> >
> > On 26 January 2016 at 22:05, rjf  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as
> >> a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source.
> >>
> >> But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the
> >> ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while.
> >> RjF
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use
> >>> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in.
> >>>
> >>> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  wrote:
> 
>  There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
>  is mentioned a few times:
> 
>  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666
> 
>  I have the impression very few of the comments are from
>  mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
>  interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
>  software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
>  group of potential users.
> 
>   -- William
> 
>  --
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>  Groups "sage-devel" group.
>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>  an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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>  Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
>  For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
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> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> William (http://wstein.org)
> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-26 Thread rjf 
I think it is somewhat disheartening to see Mathematica accepted as 
a program whose major or only flaw is that it is not open source.

But maybe I didn't read all the comments.  It seems that the
ycombinator contributors tend to rattle on a while.
RjF

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 AM UTC-8, bluescarni wrote:
>
> It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use 
> black box software in science is finally starting to sink in.
>
> On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  > wrote:
>
>> There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
>> is mentioned a few times:
>>
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666
>>
>> I have the impression very few of the comments are from
>> mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
>> interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
>> software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
>> group of potential users.
>>
>>  -- William
>>
>> --
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>
>

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[sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-20 Thread William Stein 
There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
is mentioned a few times:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666

I have the impression very few of the comments are from
mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
group of potential users.

 -- William

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Re: [sage-devel] Hacker news thread about math software ("Announcing Wolfram Programming Lab")

2016-01-20 Thread Francesco Biscani 
It's somewhat refreshing to see that the idea that one should not use black
box software in science is finally starting to sink in.

On 20 January 2016 at 13:30, William Stein  wrote:

> There's a big thread on Hacker News about math software in which Sage
> is mentioned a few times:
>
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10934666
>
> I have the impression very few of the comments are from
> mathematicians...  Nonetheless, some people may find the comments
> interesting, since they reflect how open source math and scientific
> software such as Sage/Python/Sympy/Octave are (mis-)perceived by one
> group of potential users.
>
>  -- William
>
> --
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>

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