[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
On 24 Mai, 15:59, Bill Hart wrote: > [...] > I *apologise unreservedly* for upsetting the GMP > developers. This flame war, whether well-intentioned or not, is much > to be regretted. It would have been better to simply state we forked > because we wished to support Windows development, have an open > repository and, at the time, continue with an LGPL v2.1+ licensed > library whilst GMP moved on with v3+, so that other v2+ projects had > time to assess v3+. That would have been more reasonable on our part. > We were naive in the extreme to not expect the hostile response we > got. This we regret deeply. > [...] The MPIR web site (http://www.mpir.org/#about) does not state this, especially not the motivation for the fork. -Leif -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
I just made a check of past GMP tarballs regarding this Title Page issue.
Right up to GMP 4.3.0 the document license was GFDL 1.2. By GMP 4.3.0
@author{The GMP Developers} had been added (I didn't bother checking
the precise version this got added). Nothing wrong with either no
author or lack of specified authors (presumably), as GFDL 1.2 was
still in use. In fact, I have to wonder why this was even changed in
the license at all!
So for us this issue seems to be very recent indeed, perhaps the
license was only changed for GMP 5.0.0 and the other release
coincident with that (I can't be bothered checking precise version
numbers).
Anyhow, it is clear this issue affects MPIR 2.0.0 *only*. MPIR 1.3.x
predated these changes.
Bill.
On 24 May 2010 14:59, Bill Hart wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> On the GMP website we find that MPIR "have also removed the author
> name from our 140 page manual".
>
> Roughly speaking, whilst not strictly correct as written (we haven't
> "removed" anything), my reading of the license suggests there *is* an
> issue that needs to be sorted out here. As of MPIR 2.0.0 we switched
> over to using the GFDL version 1.3 in the MPIR manual, so that it is
> possible to include sections from the more recent GMP manual in the
> MPIR manual.
>
> One of the conditions of the GFDL 1.3 is apparently that the author's
> name be given on the title page. At present we give no author's name
> at all and never have! However current GMP documentation has "Torbjorn
> Granlund and the GMP Development Team" listed as authors. Thanks to
> the GMP developers for pointing this out. However, there is an
> accredited technique for doing so, it involves a short email which
> goes like this,
>
> "Dear MPIR Developers,
>
> We have just noticed that currently the MPIR manual does not have the
> Author names on the Title page as required by the GFDL version 1.3.
> Please note the authors listed in the current GMP manual on its Title
> page. We would appreciate it if you could make the necessary
> adjustments to your manual.
>
> Regards,
>
> The GMP Team."
>
> Instead we find out about this issue on the GMP website! I can promise
> that if a short polite email such as this is sent to the MPIR team in
> future, the issue will receive our fullest attention and will receive
> a similarly polite response notifying the GMP Team that we have made
> the adjustments requested. Please be specific about any issues you
> might note. Generalised accusations with no detail, which later prove
> to be false, as has happened repeatedly in the past, are not welcome!
> Also, threatening legal language is not required in such
> correspondence. We are a fellow Open Source project and not a large
> company with a proprietary license and big legal department! It would
> also be preferred if this correspondence was sent to a member of the
> MPIR Development Team instead of the leader of the Sage project, who
> is not an MPIR devel (and infinitely busy).
>
> Although our manual came to being as a modified version of a GFDL 1.2
> manual, it does now include a few small bits and pieces from the new
> manual and is therefore now GFDL version 1.3 (yes we remembered to
> include the license for that!!). To reflect this, I believe we should
> change the title page to reflect the authors of the manual.
>
> I propose we add, "Original Authors: Torbjorn Granlund and the GMP
> Development Team" followed by "Subsequent modifications: William Hart
> and the MPIR Team" (and of course anyone else who modifies the manual
> in a significant way from now on, e.g. J. Moxham). Please refer to the
> statement that says that up to five authors *MUST* be listed, if they
> exist. I wonder if anyone else modified the GMP documentation? Who
> else is included in the "GMP Development Team" that should be listed
> as an author. Or is the document entirely written by one individual?
>
> Note the requirement to have this information on the title page seems
> to be a new one with the GFDL v1.3, or at least no such information
> was in GFDL v 1.2 documentation.
>
> Note that the original defamatory information posted on the GMP
> website about MPIR has been removed. Thanks to the GMP Team for
> removing this!
>
> As mentioned before, the FSF conducted an audit of MPIR some time ago,
> and after correction of a couple of minor issues (mentioned in an
> earlier post) was happy to let us know that they consider us to be in
> compliance. Certainly none of the original claims made on the GMP
> website or in private correspondence that we had been caught
> "red-handed" stealing code from recent GMP and downgraded the license
> headers, were supported by that audit.
>
> Now to the other current inaccuracies:
>
> 1) "a renamed GMP" - actually MPIR contains a vast quantity of new
> material not contained in GMP. See the MPIR website and past release
> announcements for details. It is incorrect to imply that we just
> renamed GMP to MPIR. The correct term is "fork", not "rename".
>
> 2
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
Interesting observation. Do you think we should state the original reasons for the fork? Bear in mind, some of these reasons are no longer valid, e.g. GMP now has an open repository. We also aren't releasing new versions under LGPL 2.1+ ourselves any more. After extensive consultation we decided to switch to v3+. The only exception is MPIR 1.2.x which is LGPL v2.1+. I don't know of anyone who has volunteered to take on the project of extending this in any way. It's our intention to fix any bugs found in it only. I suppose this might generate some new releases, but only very minor updates. It certainly isn't a focus for development. I think we do make a pretty big fuss about MSVC support on our website though. That will shortly change to MSVC 2010 support. We should also be making a big fuss about 64 bit Windows assembly code, as that is another feature of MPIR (note the Windows calling conventions differ from the linux ones, so you have to modify the assembly code). Remember that we forked GMP years ago. I'm not sure it is a wise idea to state on the MPIR website what our original reasons for a fork were. Wouldn't that merely be reopening old wounds? I think the current ambitions of the MPIR project are all that really matters and that is all stated pretty clearly. I'm sure we'd be happy to reword if you think something should be added, though. Bill. On 24 May, 17:47, leif wrote: > On 24 Mai, 15:59, Bill Hart wrote: > > > [...] > > I *apologise unreservedly* for upsetting the GMP > > developers. This flame war, whether well-intentioned or not, is much > > to be regretted. It would have been better to simply state we forked > > because we wished to support Windows development, have an open > > repository and, at the time, continue with an LGPL v2.1+ licensed > > library whilst GMP moved on with v3+, so that other v2+ projects had > > time to assess v3+. That would have been more reasonable on our part. > > We were naive in the extreme to not expect the hostile response we > > got. This we regret deeply. > > [...] > > The MPIR web site (http://www.mpir.org/#about) does not state this, > especially not the motivation for the fork. > > -Leif > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL:http://www.sagemath.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
OK, I made a little bit of a change to the "about" section of the MPIR website. It now has: "MPIR is an open source multiprecision integer (bignum) library forked from the http://gmplib.org/";>GMP (GNU Multi Precision) project. It consists of much code from past GMP releases, in combination with much original contributed code." I doubt that addresses the concern you had, but it is, in my opinion, clearer and simpler than what we had. In particular I removed the bit about originally being a fork of GMP 4.2.1 (which was LGPL v2+), etc. I don't think that information is particularly useful or serving any definite purpose any more, though there wasn't anything particularly wrong with it. But again, I'm happy to change something if it isn't clear, or perhaps I should say that the new MPIR webmaster will (I've just been transferring credentials over for that). Bill. On 24 May, 18:43, Bill Hart wrote: > Interesting observation. Do you think we should state the original > reasons for the fork? Bear in mind, some of these reasons are no > longer valid, e.g. GMP now has an open repository. > > We also aren't releasing new versions under LGPL 2.1+ ourselves any > more. After extensive consultation we decided to switch to v3+. The > only exception is MPIR 1.2.x which is LGPL v2.1+. I don't know of > anyone who has volunteered to take on the project of extending this in > any way. It's our intention to fix any bugs found in it only. I > suppose this might generate some new releases, but only very minor > updates. It certainly isn't a focus for development. > > I think we do make a pretty big fuss about MSVC support on our website > though. That will shortly change to MSVC 2010 support. We should also > be making a big fuss about 64 bit Windows assembly code, as that is > another feature of MPIR (note the Windows calling conventions differ > from the linux ones, so you have to modify the assembly code). > > Remember that we forked GMP years ago. I'm not sure it is a wise idea > to state on the MPIR website what our original reasons for a fork > were. Wouldn't that merely be reopening old wounds? > > I think the current ambitions of the MPIR project are all that really > matters and that is all stated pretty clearly. I'm sure we'd be happy > to reword if you think something should be added, though. > > Bill. > > On 24 May, 17:47, leif wrote: > > > > > > > On 24 Mai, 15:59, Bill Hart wrote: > > > > [...] > > > I *apologise unreservedly* for upsetting the GMP > > > developers. This flame war, whether well-intentioned or not, is much > > > to be regretted. It would have been better to simply state we forked > > > because we wished to support Windows development, have an open > > > repository and, at the time, continue with an LGPL v2.1+ licensed > > > library whilst GMP moved on with v3+, so that other v2+ projects had > > > time to assess v3+. That would have been more reasonable on our part. > > > We were naive in the extreme to not expect the hostile response we > > > got. This we regret deeply. > > > [...] > > > The MPIR web site (http://www.mpir.org/#about) does not state this, > > especially not the motivation for the fork. > > > -Leif > > > -- > > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > > URL:http://www.sagemath.org > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL:http://www.sagemath.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
On 24 Mai, 20:13, Bill Hart wrote: > OK, I made a little bit of a change to the "about" section of the MPIR > website. It now has: > > "MPIR is an open source multiprecision integer (bignum) library forked > from the http://gmplib.org/";>GMP (GNU Multi Precision) > project. It consists of much code from past GMP releases, in > combination with much original contributed code." > > I doubt that addresses the concern you had, but it is, in my opinion, > clearer and simpler than what we had. In particular I removed the bit > about originally being a fork of GMP 4.2.1 (which was LGPL v2+), etc. > I don't think that information is particularly useful or serving any > definite purpose any more, though there wasn't anything particularly > wrong with it. > > But again, I'm happy to change something if it isn't clear, or perhaps > I should say that the new MPIR webmaster will (I've just been > transferring credentials over for that). (primary goals:) "To maintain full interface support with GMP - MPIR is a drop-in replacement for GMP." So it isn't clear why MPIR forked rather than contributing their enhancements to GMP. (And one may ask himself why and when he should use MPIR instead of GMP and vice versa.) -Leif -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
Just a quick clarification. I wrote: "As far as I know, the library itself was correctly licensed though." Obviously, given the foregoing, that isn't what I meant to say. This is to be taken in the context of the parenthetical remark in the following statement from the GMP website: "a renamed GMP that was initially based on GMP 4.1.3 (although they inadequately for a long time released their GMP version under LGPL 2)." I should have written, "As far as I know, we didn't attempt to license the MPIR library itself v2+ instead of license it v2.1+ though", which is what I meant to say in the context of my discussion. If this was intended to be about the LGPL v3+ patch issue or the FSF compliance issues, then it is completely misstated. It doesn't belong in a parenthetical statement about MPIR originally being based on GMP 4.1.3 (even if that were correct). My apologies for misstating. Bill. On 24 May, 19:13, Bill Hart wrote: > OK, I made a little bit of a change to the "about" section of the MPIR > website. It now has: > > "MPIR is an open source multiprecision integer (bignum) library forked > from the http://gmplib.org/";>GMP (GNU Multi Precision) > project. It consists of much code from past GMP releases, in > combination with much original contributed code." > > I doubt that addresses the concern you had, but it is, in my opinion, > clearer and simpler than what we had. In particular I removed the bit > about originally being a fork of GMP 4.2.1 (which was LGPL v2+), etc. > I don't think that information is particularly useful or serving any > definite purpose any more, though there wasn't anything particularly > wrong with it. > > But again, I'm happy to change something if it isn't clear, or perhaps > I should say that the new MPIR webmaster will (I've just been > transferring credentials over for that). > > Bill. > > On 24 May, 18:43, Bill Hart wrote: > > > > > > > Interesting observation. Do you think we should state the original > > reasons for the fork? Bear in mind, some of these reasons are no > > longer valid, e.g. GMP now has an open repository. > > > We also aren't releasing new versions under LGPL 2.1+ ourselves any > > more. After extensive consultation we decided to switch to v3+. The > > only exception is MPIR 1.2.x which is LGPL v2.1+. I don't know of > > anyone who has volunteered to take on the project of extending this in > > any way. It's our intention to fix any bugs found in it only. I > > suppose this might generate some new releases, but only very minor > > updates. It certainly isn't a focus for development. > > > I think we do make a pretty big fuss about MSVC support on our website > > though. That will shortly change to MSVC 2010 support. We should also > > be making a big fuss about 64 bit Windows assembly code, as that is > > another feature of MPIR (note the Windows calling conventions differ > > from the linux ones, so you have to modify the assembly code). > > > Remember that we forked GMP years ago. I'm not sure it is a wise idea > > to state on the MPIR website what our original reasons for a fork > > were. Wouldn't that merely be reopening old wounds? > > > I think the current ambitions of the MPIR project are all that really > > matters and that is all stated pretty clearly. I'm sure we'd be happy > > to reword if you think something should be added, though. > > > Bill. > > > On 24 May, 17:47, leif wrote: > > > > On 24 Mai, 15:59, Bill Hart wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > > I *apologise unreservedly* for upsetting the GMP > > > > developers. This flame war, whether well-intentioned or not, is much > > > > to be regretted. It would have been better to simply state we forked > > > > because we wished to support Windows development, have an open > > > > repository and, at the time, continue with an LGPL v2.1+ licensed > > > > library whilst GMP moved on with v3+, so that other v2+ projects had > > > > time to assess v3+. That would have been more reasonable on our part. > > > > We were naive in the extreme to not expect the hostile response we > > > > got. This we regret deeply. > > > > [...] > > > > The MPIR web site (http://www.mpir.org/#about) does not state this, > > > especially not the motivation for the fork. > > > > -Leif > > > > -- > > > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > > > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > > For more options, visit this group > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > > > URL:http://www.sagemath.org > > > -- > > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > > URL:http://www.sagemath.org > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
I don't think that is something we can cover on the MPIR website. You might consider "Windows support", "FSF copyright assignment" and other issues It should just be clear that GMP won't, by and large, just accept our contributions. You might also consider that numerous individuals *did* try to contribute their improvements to GMP. I agree the the fork was intimately tied up with this stuff. But again, let's be positive about MPIR's current focus. I don't think we need to revisit this on the website. Bill. On 24 May, 19:34, leif wrote: > On 24 Mai, 20:13, Bill Hart wrote: > > > > > > > OK, I made a little bit of a change to the "about" section of the MPIR > > website. It now has: > > > "MPIR is an open source multiprecision integer (bignum) library forked > > from the http://gmplib.org/";>GMP (GNU Multi Precision) > > project. It consists of much code from past GMP releases, in > > combination with much original contributed code." > > > I doubt that addresses the concern you had, but it is, in my opinion, > > clearer and simpler than what we had. In particular I removed the bit > > about originally being a fork of GMP 4.2.1 (which was LGPL v2+), etc. > > I don't think that information is particularly useful or serving any > > definite purpose any more, though there wasn't anything particularly > > wrong with it. > > > But again, I'm happy to change something if it isn't clear, or perhaps > > I should say that the new MPIR webmaster will (I've just been > > transferring credentials over for that). > > (primary goals:) "To maintain full interface support with GMP - MPIR > is a drop-in replacement for GMP." > > So it isn't clear why MPIR forked rather than contributing their > enhancements to GMP. > (And one may ask himself why and when he should use MPIR instead of > GMP and vice versa.) > > -Leif > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL:http://www.sagemath.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: MPIR documentation and the GMP website
Someone has just pointed out that the mpir.texi document, from which
our pdf documentation is generated contains:
@c @author Original version by Torbj@"orn Granlund, Swox AB - modified
by William Hart
@c @email{goodwillh...@gmail.com}
So, not only did we not remove the original author information, but we
correctly added additional author information!!
Now, we are looking into why this isn't appearing on the title page of
the pdf documentation. That appears to be a technical issue! We will
also add "The GMP Development Team" as per the latest GMP
documentation.
So, next time Mr. Granlund, check your facts before posting nonsense!
Bill.
On 24 May, 19:58, Bill Hart wrote:
> I don't think that is something we can cover on the MPIR website.
>
> You might consider "Windows support", "FSF copyright assignment" and
> other issues It should just be clear that GMP won't, by and large,
> just accept our contributions. You might also consider that numerous
> individuals *did* try to contribute their improvements to GMP.
>
> I agree the the fork was intimately tied up with this stuff. But
> again, let's be positive about MPIR's current focus. I don't think we
> need to revisit this on the website.
>
> Bill.
>
> On 24 May, 19:34, leif wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 24 Mai, 20:13, Bill Hart wrote:
>
> > > OK, I made a little bit of a change to the "about" section of the MPIR
> > > website. It now has:
>
> > > "MPIR is an open source multiprecision integer (bignum) library forked
> > > from the http://gmplib.org/";>GMP (GNU Multi Precision)
> > > project. It consists of much code from past GMP releases, in
> > > combination with much original contributed code."
>
> > > I doubt that addresses the concern you had, but it is, in my opinion,
> > > clearer and simpler than what we had. In particular I removed the bit
> > > about originally being a fork of GMP 4.2.1 (which was LGPL v2+), etc.
> > > I don't think that information is particularly useful or serving any
> > > definite purpose any more, though there wasn't anything particularly
> > > wrong with it.
>
> > > But again, I'm happy to change something if it isn't clear, or perhaps
> > > I should say that the new MPIR webmaster will (I've just been
> > > transferring credentials over for that).
>
> > (primary goals:) "To maintain full interface support with GMP - MPIR
> > is a drop-in replacement for GMP."
>
> > So it isn't clear why MPIR forked rather than contributing their
> > enhancements to GMP.
> > (And one may ask himself why and when he should use MPIR instead of
> > GMP and vice versa.)
>
> > -Leif
>
> > --
> > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group
> > athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> > URL:http://www.sagemath.org
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL:http://www.sagemath.org
--
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