Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Volker Braun]

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 7:23:58 PM UTC+1, kcrisman wrote:
>
> Does one need to use "from sage.all import *" or is Sage a "kernel" for 
> Jupyter now?  I guess I don't see what the advantages would be (though 
> there may be some significant ones).
>

 How about you give it a try? Just run "sage --notebook=jupyter" instead of 
"sage --notebook=sagenb".


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[kcrisman]

Does one need to use "from sage.all import *" or is Sage a "kernel" for 
>> Jupyter now?  I guess I don't see what the advantages would be (though 
>> there may be some significant ones).
>>
>
>  How about you give it a try? Just run "sage --notebook=jupyter" instead 
> of "sage --notebook=sagenb".
>

I'd rather have those who have used both extensively just speak to the 
advantages; my fumbling for a few hours won't be too helpful compared to 
that :(

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[William Stein]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 10:23 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
>
>>> There are some things which don't work yet in Sage on Jupyter, for
>>> example interacts.
>>
>>
>> SageNB interacts don't work, but Jupyter interacts do. The syntax is
>> slightly different but it would be easy enough to provide a compatibility
>> layer.
>>
>> The switch is now http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19740 (needs review)
>
>
> Huh, that is a pretty big change.  Is there any obvious/easy way for people
> to migrate sws notebooks to Jupyter?  (I assume not.)  What would the
> rationale for switching to Jupyter be?  (Since, as I understand it, it's not
> that Sage-specific, but maybe that has been radically improved.)  Does one
> need to use "from sage.all import *" or is Sage a "kernel" for Jupyter now?
> I guess I don't see what the advantages would be (though there may be some
> significant ones).  Does Sage include all the Jupyter kernels right now,
> would that be a problem if (say) someone wanted to use the Julia kernel and
> we don't ship Julia?
>
> (I would have thought that switching to the "personal" SMC would be the more
> evident new default, though that is a much bigger project and SMC isn't
> really a notebook in the usual sense anyway, that's just part of it.)

Though I would love to push for that, it is unfortunately not a viable
option right now.  The reasons are  (1) it's under major development;
e.g., I'm *completely* rewriting how realtime synchronization works at
a low level literally right now, (2) the SMC dependencies
fundamentally include RethinkDB and Node.js, which are both nontrivial
dependencies with many potential issues, and (3) there's very, very
little testing of installing SMC "in the wild" and having it work.

So I strongly endorse what Volker and others have done to make Jupyter
notebook with the Sage kernel more usable as a default notebook, even
though like you I have some fundamental concerns.   For example, to
add to your list above, if you start a for loop running -- doing some
interesting computation printing to output -- close your notebook and
open it an hour later, the results are just *gone*.   But for a
personal notebook on your own computer, that's really not such an
issue, and eventually it will definitely get addressed in Jupyter.

 - William


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Thierry Dumont]

I would like to say that we (we = the most part of French 
mathematicians) want to develop a computing facility based on Jupyter 
(jupyterhub, actually). For this, we will use a cluster of "second hand" 
machines (a cluster of machines which have been used some years for 
parallel computations (with an infiniband network, ...)) and convert 
them to a jupyterhub cluster. This is not aimed only for running sage, 
but also a lot of python things, R, julia and so on

(yes, I know, we can run most part of this in Sage; but not all).
So, using sage with jupyter is crucial for this project.

t.d.

Le 20/12/2015 04:32, Samuel Lelievre a écrit :

2015-12-19 10:23:58 -0800 (PST), kcrisman:

 > [Volker Braun wrote:]
 >> The switch [to Jupyter notebook as a default in SageMath]
 >> is now http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19740 (needs review)
 >
 > uh, that is a pretty big change.  Is there any obvious/easy way
 > for people to migrate sws notebooks to Jupyter?  (I assume not.)

I think one way to go is to convert sws to sagews, and then sagews
to ipynb (maybe via rst).

 > What would the rationale for switching to Jupyter be?  (Since,
 > as I understand it, it's not that Sage-specific, but maybe that
 > has been radically improved.)

The rationale is that the Sage notebook is in "maintenance mode"
while the Jupyter notebook is actively developed, and becoming
a standard much more widely than in the Sage community, with now
~50 kernels available and many projects using it, see

 https://github.com/ipython/ipython/wiki/Projects-using-IPython

https://github.com/ipython/ipython/wiki/IPython-kernels-for-other-languages

Since SageMath will eventually use Jupyter notebook by default,
why not let our new users discover it first.

 > Does one need to use "from sage.all import *" or is Sage a "kernel"
 > for Jupyter now?  I guess I don't see what the advantages would be
 > (though there may be some significant ones).  Does Sage include
 > all the Jupyter kernels right now, would that be a problem if (say)
 > someone wanted to use the Julia kernel and we don't ship Julia?

Running

  sage -n jupyter

starts a Jupyter notebook server. You can explore the file hierarchy
(starting from the directory where you launched the above command),
and when you click "New" you can choose between "Python2" and "Sage"
for creating a new Jupyter notebook.

 > (I would have thought that switching to the "personal" SMC would be
 > the more evident new default, though that is a much bigger project
 > and SMC isn't really a notebook in the usual sense anyway,
 > that's just part of it.)

When you launch a Jupyter notebook in SageMathCloud, it starts with
the Python2 kernel. You can then use the menu "Kernel > Change Kernel"
which currently lets you choose from the following kernels:
- Anaconda 3
- Julia
- Python 2
- Python 3
- R
- Sage 6.9
- Sage 6.9.beta7

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<>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[kcrisman]

> There are some things which don't work yet in Sage on Jupyter, for 
>> example interacts.
>
>
> SageNB interacts don't work, but Jupyter interacts do. The syntax is 
> slightly different but it would be easy enough to provide a compatibility 
> layer.
>
> The switch is now http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19740 (needs review)
>

Huh, that is a pretty big change.  Is there any obvious/easy way for people 
to migrate sws notebooks to Jupyter?  (I assume not.)  What would the 
rationale for switching to Jupyter be?  (Since, as I understand it, it's 
not that Sage-specific, but maybe that has been radically improved.)  Does 
one need to use "from sage.all import *" or is Sage a "kernel" for Jupyter 
now?  I guess I don't see what the advantages would be (though there may be 
some significant ones).  Does Sage include all the Jupyter kernels right 
now, would that be a problem if (say) someone wanted to use the Julia 
kernel and we don't ship Julia?

(I would have thought that switching to the "personal" SMC would be the 
more evident new default, though that is a much bigger project and SMC 
isn't really a notebook in the usual sense anyway, that's just part of it.) 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Samuel Lelievre]

2015-12-19 10:23:58 -0800 (PST), kcrisman:

> [Volker Braun wrote:]
>> The switch [to Jupyter notebook as a default in SageMath]
>> is now http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19740 (needs review)
>
> uh, that is a pretty big change.  Is there any obvious/easy way
> for people to migrate sws notebooks to Jupyter?  (I assume not.)

I think one way to go is to convert sws to sagews, and then sagews
to ipynb (maybe via rst).

> What would the rationale for switching to Jupyter be?  (Since,
> as I understand it, it's not that Sage-specific, but maybe that
> has been radically improved.)

The rationale is that the Sage notebook is in "maintenance mode"
while the Jupyter notebook is actively developed, and becoming
a standard much more widely than in the Sage community, with now
~50 kernels available and many projects using it, see

https://github.com/ipython/ipython/wiki/Projects-using-IPython

https://github.com/ipython/ipython/wiki/IPython-kernels-for-other-languages

Since SageMath will eventually use Jupyter notebook by default,
why not let our new users discover it first.

> Does one need to use "from sage.all import *" or is Sage a "kernel"
> for Jupyter now?  I guess I don't see what the advantages would be
> (though there may be some significant ones).  Does Sage include
> all the Jupyter kernels right now, would that be a problem if (say)
> someone wanted to use the Julia kernel and we don't ship Julia?

Running

 sage -n jupyter

starts a Jupyter notebook server. You can explore the file hierarchy
(starting from the directory where you launched the above command),
and when you click "New" you can choose between "Python2" and "Sage"
for creating a new Jupyter notebook.

> (I would have thought that switching to the "personal" SMC would be
> the more evident new default, though that is a much bigger project
> and SMC isn't really a notebook in the usual sense anyway,
> that's just part of it.)

When you launch a Jupyter notebook in SageMathCloud, it starts with
the Python2 kernel. You can then use the menu "Kernel > Change Kernel"
which currently lets you choose from the following kernels:
- Anaconda 3
- Julia
- Python 2
- Python 3
- R
- Sage 6.9
- Sage 6.9.beta7

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[leif]

William Stein wrote:
> +1 the version!

Anticipating the next +1, Sage 11.0.


-leif

> On Thursday, December 17, 2015, Francois Bissey
>  > wrote:
> 
> +1
> > On 18/12/2015, at 12:42, Volker Braun  > wrote:
> >
> > Should we switch to 7.0 after 6.10?
> >
> > http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19641 [remove (DY)LD_LIBRARY_PATH]
> requires everything to be recompiled to get the right linker flags.
> So that would be a good reason for upgrading the major version, too.


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Volker Braun]

On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 8:14:46 AM UTC+1, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> There are some things which don't work yet in Sage on Jupyter, for 
> example interacts.


SageNB interacts don't work, but Jupyter interacts do. The syntax is 
slightly different but it would be easy enough to provide a compatibility 
layer.

The switch is now http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19740 (needs review)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Thierry]

Hi,

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 08:14:42AM +0100, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> On 2015-12-18 07:05, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:
> >We also hope to upgrade pexpect and do some nice changes in SageNB,
> >although 7.0 is probably a great version to consider switching default
> >notebook to IPython/Jupiter. (But please keep shipping SageNB forever!)
> 
> There are some things which don't work yet in Sage on Jupyter, for example
> interacts.

On the Jupyter side, the most missing feature seems to be the lack of live
documentation, which prevents it to be used during tutorials.

I opened http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/17269 for this but it is far
beyong my knowledge of Jupyter and Sphinx.

Is Jupyter currently able to open rst files and interpret 'sage:' blocks
as computation cells ?

Ciao,
Thierry

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Andrey Novoseltsev]

We also hope to upgrade pexpect and do some nice changes in SageNB, 
although 7.0 is probably a great version to consider switching default 
notebook to IPython/Jupiter. (But please keep shipping SageNB forever!)

On Thursday, 17 December 2015 16:42:44 UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote:
>
> Should we switch to 7.0 after 6.10?
>
> http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19641 [remove (DY)LD_LIBRARY_PATH] 
> requires everything to be recompiled to get the right linker flags. So that 
> would be a good reason for upgrading the major version, too.
>
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[William Stein]

This seems like a good thread to think about the nontrivial backwards
incompatible changes that are in our future:

 - The biggie is of course switching from Python 2.x to Python 3.x.

 - Making Jupyter notebook the default.

  - ???

William


On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Andrey Novoseltsev  wrote:
> We also hope to upgrade pexpect and do some nice changes in SageNB, although
> 7.0 is probably a great version to consider switching default notebook to
> IPython/Jupiter. (But please keep shipping SageNB forever!)
>
>
> On Thursday, 17 December 2015 16:42:44 UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote:
>>
>> Should we switch to 7.0 after 6.10?
>>
>> http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19641 [remove (DY)LD_LIBRARY_PATH]
>> requires everything to be recompiled to get the right linker flags. So that
>> would be a good reason for upgrading the major version, too.
>>
>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage-7.0 ?

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-12-18 07:05, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:

We also hope to upgrade pexpect and do some nice changes in SageNB,
although 7.0 is probably a great version to consider switching default
notebook to IPython/Jupiter. (But please keep shipping SageNB forever!)


There are some things which don't work yet in Sage on Jupyter, for 
example interacts.


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