Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[jplab]

Hello,

Jumping in here...

1) I remember discussions from the past while the (Anything)overflow era 
was booming, there was ideas to create the Sageoverflow database of Q&A... 
For me, the main reason not to go is *ownership of the data* and *hosting*. 
As Sébastien perfectly illustrated, the immense heritage of the answers 
there carries a *huge value* and should not be lost. Be it only for the 
sake of the time spent answering questions. How to make sure that Q&As 
remain in our hands and that we do not depend on the good will of hosting 
platforms? Having ask-sage as it is currently satisfies this, and I am 
happy about that.

2) I myself use it very very often to find answers, and I do not always 
logging to add my thumbs up (and probably many users do the same...), *so 
seeing that there aren't many upvotes might not be a fair indication of 
value here*. There are also answers with many upvotes...

3) I just come back from a Summer School (ECCO 2024) in Colombia where I 
taught Sage to 130 students, and I do mention that AskSage exists and they 
can ask their questions there. Yes, the 0 year bug is annoying, but a user 
doesn't care: they care about getting the answer quickly, period. Meanwhile 
I asked the students that know about Sage where they get their knowledge 
from, and many told me that asksage is a very useful ressource to get the 
answers they need: asksage is well-known to the Sage-user base. So again, I 
think that a simple-and-stupid Q&A webpage has its value. The simpler it is 
for the user, the better.

Side question: what is necessary to host such a webpage? I could ask my IT 
about the possibilities to host such a page at my department.

Best,
Jean-Philippe





Le jeudi 4 juillet 2024 à 11:13:12 UTC-4, kcrisman a écrit :

> Thank you Sébastien for standing up for users, for distinguishing between 
> users and developers, and for recognizing that those two groups have 
> different needs.  May your Karma increase exponentially!
>
>
>
> This is the point which we must keep hammering home.  Sage users and 
> developers are not the same thing.  This is often in tension (as has also 
> been pointed out numerous times) with the limited, unpaid, developer time 
> issue, and that one is also important.  However, the latter issue gets a 
> lot more screen time.
>
> With respect to Discourse specifically, I just played with it a little 
> bit, and though I was open to it given the import option, unfortunately it 
> seems a lot more like Discord (Slack?) than a pure Q&A site.  I think the 
> problem isn't going to be so much not having karma (though I admit that 
> when I had time to be very active on it that was some motivation) for 
> contributors, as that it's sort of like the hoops I had to jump through 
> getting help when I built a computer with my kids.
>
> The help forum was on Discord.  Okay, so first I have to sign up.  Then I 
> have to figure out what "channels" are, and where my question belongs.  And 
> then there are "welcome" things, and so on and so forth.  While Discourse 
> seems to have different names for these things, the level of complexity is 
> still there.  That's what makes Q&A sites (not just ask, or the Stack* 
> sites, but also Quora or whatever) popular.  There is ONE thing they do, 
> and that's what you do.  You ask questions, you get answers.  
>
> I'll be the first to admit that ask.sagemath looks a bit dated, and that 
> the "0 years" bug is annoying, and that there are plenty of questions not 
> followed up on.  (That's also the case for Sage questions on 
> Stackoverflow.)  And I am impressed that there are still users helping each 
> other with Sage and CoCalc stuff on the CoCalc Discord, which has long 
> since been *officially* abandoned by CoCalc (though William checks once in 
> a great while). Infrastructure/hosting has been a problem too, as noted at 
> various points in the thread.
>
> However, ask.sagemath seems stable enough right now in terms of actual 
> functionality, and is just very easy for people to sign up for and use.  I 
> think the community should be very hesitant to add additional barriers to 
> participation by *users*, some of which (as is clear if you read enough 
> posts) definitely are not going to be engaging in a more Discourse-like 
> option.  Or, if we have to do something like that, it would be almost 
> better to archive ask.sagemath and point people to Zulip, which seems (to 
> the laity such as myself) to be pretty much like Discourse, except that 
> there is already a (somewhat?) thriving number of Sage people using it!   
>
> Still, the first thing should be to figure out if anyone has contacted the 
> askbot developer to ask the relevant questions.  I see that he still 
> participates regularly on his own forum, though (annoyingly) didn't respond 
> to the questions Samuel L. asked recently.  
>
> Not-as-random-as-you-think links:
> * https://stackshare.io/stackups/discourse-vs-zulip (because they do seem 
> similar)

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[kcrisman]

Thank you Sébastien for standing up for users, for distinguishing between 
users and developers, and for recognizing that those two groups have 
different needs.  May your Karma increase exponentially!



This is the point which we must keep hammering home.  Sage users and 
developers are not the same thing.  This is often in tension (as has also 
been pointed out numerous times) with the limited, unpaid, developer time 
issue, and that one is also important.  However, the latter issue gets a 
lot more screen time.

With respect to Discourse specifically, I just played with it a little bit, 
and though I was open to it given the import option, unfortunately it seems 
a lot more like Discord (Slack?) than a pure Q&A site.  I think the problem 
isn't going to be so much not having karma (though I admit that when I had 
time to be very active on it that was some motivation) for contributors, as 
that it's sort of like the hoops I had to jump through getting help when I 
built a computer with my kids.

The help forum was on Discord.  Okay, so first I have to sign up.  Then I 
have to figure out what "channels" are, and where my question belongs.  And 
then there are "welcome" things, and so on and so forth.  While Discourse 
seems to have different names for these things, the level of complexity is 
still there.  That's what makes Q&A sites (not just ask, or the Stack* 
sites, but also Quora or whatever) popular.  There is ONE thing they do, 
and that's what you do.  You ask questions, you get answers.  

I'll be the first to admit that ask.sagemath looks a bit dated, and that 
the "0 years" bug is annoying, and that there are plenty of questions not 
followed up on.  (That's also the case for Sage questions on 
Stackoverflow.)  And I am impressed that there are still users helping each 
other with Sage and CoCalc stuff on the CoCalc Discord, which has long 
since been *officially* abandoned by CoCalc (though William checks once in 
a great while). Infrastructure/hosting has been a problem too, as noted at 
various points in the thread.

However, ask.sagemath seems stable enough right now in terms of actual 
functionality, and is just very easy for people to sign up for and use.  I 
think the community should be very hesitant to add additional barriers to 
participation by *users*, some of which (as is clear if you read enough 
posts) definitely are not going to be engaging in a more Discourse-like 
option.  Or, if we have to do something like that, it would be almost 
better to archive ask.sagemath and point people to Zulip, which seems (to 
the laity such as myself) to be pretty much like Discourse, except that 
there is already a (somewhat?) thriving number of Sage people using it!   

Still, the first thing should be to figure out if anyone has contacted the 
askbot developer to ask the relevant questions.  I see that he still 
participates regularly on his own forum, though (annoyingly) didn't respond 
to the questions Samuel L. asked recently.  

Not-as-random-as-you-think links:
* https://stackshare.io/stackups/discourse-vs-zulip (because they do seem 
similar)
* 
https://meta.discourse.org/t/forum-owners-how-do-you-fight-facebook-groups/166100/7
 
(because you wouldn't believe how many people I have to send to 
sage-support or ask from the Facebook Sage page, probably the worst 
possible interface for helping with technical things)
* 
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discord-is-taking-aim-at-discourse-how-does-discourse-remain-unique-and-stand-out-from-the-crowd/227765/6?page=4
 
(because we're all imperfect, and who knows how long Discourse or anything 
else will be around)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:49 AM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:

> I gave a look at the test Discourse site
> https://sagemath-test.discourse.group/
> (thank you Matthias for setting it up!)
> as well as to the Jupyter Discourse site pointed out by Dima:
> https://discourse.jupyter.org/
> DIscourse is clearly a high quality tool but I agree with Sébastien that it 
> is less question-based than ask.sagemath.org.
> Voting for questions and answers should definitely be allowed. In Discourse, 
> does this goes only through "likes"  ?

it's configurable, to an extent.

> What about the automatic reordering of answers? (in ask.sagemath.org, the 
> most upvoted answer is shown first).

They have a plugin for this:https://github.com/discourse/discourse-post-voting
They don't provide it by default - for a good reason: complexity.

> IMHO, an important feature is that of "accepted answer". I understand this 
> comes through an optional  plugin in Discourse:
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-solved/30155
>
> I fully agree with Sébastien's comment in
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/9uX5j4x1Nsg/m/zPqN_PYKAQAJ
> ask.sagemath.org is a very valuable piece of knowledge regarding the daily 
> use of Sage. If migration is decided, it would be a pity to lose it. Could it 
> be imported somehow in Discourse?

Of course, we will import everything, including karma values.

Dima

>
> Eric.
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:43 AM Sébastien Labbé  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 4:35:57 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
> Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
> plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916
>
>
> Karma is part of the many good aspects of ask.sagemath.org, but it is mostly 
> about human relations. People gather on ask like they gather during SageDays 
> since more than 15 years. People are generous of their time to help each 
> others. The question is how to preserve this equilibrium? Karma alone is of 
> course not sufficient.
>
> I don't think the community of users gathered through ask.sagemath.org will 
> move to another tool just because there is Karma. Well certainly not by 
> imposing it. Also, I think the future of ask.sagemath.org should be decided 
> by the users of ask.sagemath.org (a vote proportional to the Karma for 
> instance).

One can vote as much as one wants, but voting alone will not solve the
askbot legacy issues, its general flakiness,
and will not save askbot from its slide into obscurity.
One does not want a flaky eyesore on sagemath.org domain.

Besides, we can keep ask.sagemath.org hostname as an alias for
discourse.sagemath.org

Dima

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Eric Gourgoulhon]

Le mercredi 3 juillet 2024 à 11:43:52 UTC+2, Sébastien Labbé a écrit :

On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 4:35:57 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916


Karma is part of the many good aspects of ask.sagemath.org, but it is 
mostly about human relations. People gather on ask like they gather during 
SageDays since more than 15 years. People are generous of their time to 
help each others. The question is how to preserve this equilibrium? Karma 
alone is of course not sufficient.

I don't think the community of users gathered through ask.sagemath.org will 
move to another tool just because there is Karma. Well certainly not by 
imposing it. Also, I think the future of ask.sagemath.org should be decided 
by the users of ask.sagemath.org (a vote proportional to the Karma for 
instance).


+1

Eric.  

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Eric Gourgoulhon]

Hi, 

I gave a look at the test Discourse site 
https://sagemath-test.discourse.group/
(thank you Matthias for setting it up!)
as well as to the Jupyter Discourse site pointed out by Dima:
https://discourse.jupyter.org/
DIscourse is clearly a high quality tool but I agree with Sébastien that it 
is less question-based than ask.sagemath.org. 
Voting for questions and answers should definitely be allowed. In 
Discourse, does this goes only through "likes"  ?
What about the automatic reordering of answers? (in ask.sagemath.org, the 
most upvoted answer is shown first).
IMHO, an important feature is that of "accepted answer". I understand this 
comes through an optional  plugin in Discourse:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-solved/30155

I fully agree with Sébastien's comment in 
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/9uX5j4x1Nsg/m/zPqN_PYKAQAJ
ask.sagemath.org is a very valuable piece of knowledge regarding the daily 
use of Sage. If migration is decided, it would be a pity to lose it. Could 
it be imported somehow in Discourse?

Eric. 
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Sébastien Labbé]

On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 4:35:57 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916


Karma is part of the many good aspects of ask.sagemath.org, but it is 
mostly about human relations. People gather on ask like they gather during 
SageDays since more than 15 years. People are generous of their time to 
help each others. The question is how to preserve this equilibrium? Karma 
alone is of course not sufficient.

I don't think the community of users gathered through ask.sagemath.org will 
move to another tool just because there is Karma. Well certainly not by 
imposing it. Also, I think the future of ask.sagemath.org should be decided 
by the users of ask.sagemath.org (a vote proportional to the Karma for 
instance).

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 8:48 PM Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 10:27:34 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 3:35 PM Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
> >
> > Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
> > plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916
>
> This one doesn't seem to be available in our test installation.
> It could be it's only available for self-hosted installs.
>
>
> The current test installation https://sagemath-test.discourse.group/ is my 
> free trial of a "Standard" plan (https://www.discourse.org/pricing).
> Gamification would be additional feature of the "Business" plan 
> (https://www.discourse.org/pricing).

It's not listed among the plugins one will get from an upgrade, while
looking at the plugin settings on our test instance.
They either omit it, or don't offer it.


>
> However, my Discourse contacts indicated that as an open source project we 
> may be eligible for free hosting (https://free.discourse.group/); I'm not 
> sure but I think that may include the full feature set. I have applied for it 
> and will report back.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 10:27:34 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 3:35 PM Matthias Koeppe  
wrote: 
> 
> Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916 

This one doesn't seem to be available in our test installation. 
It could be it's only available for self-hosted installs.


The current test installation https://sagemath-test.discourse.group/ is my 
free trial of a "Standard" plan (https://www.discourse.org/pricing). 
Gamification would be additional feature of the "Business" plan 
(https://www.discourse.org/pricing).

However, my Discourse contacts indicated that as an open source project we 
may be eligible for free hosting (https://free.discourse.group/); I'm not 
sure but I think that may include the full feature set. I have applied for 
it and will report back.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 3:35 PM Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
>
> Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
> plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916

This one doesn't seem to be available in our test installation.
It could be it's only available for self-hosted installs.


>
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 12:47:48 AM UTC-7 Sébastien Labbé wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, July 1, 2024 at 10:41:35 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>>
>>
>> I share the same skepticism about using GitHub Discussions.
>> But Discourse would be a direct replacement for AskBot; it is widely used 
>> with the same user-facing, not developer-centric, role.
>>
>>
>> I checked Discourse Group yesterday [https://www.discourse.org/features]. It 
>> seems to be a nice tool that many persons may like. I see it as a kind of 
>> sagemath related social network. I believe that people may use it to share 
>> stuff that they create, etc, maybe also for asking questions. But, it does 
>> not seem to be a "question based" website as it is currently the case for 
>> ask.sagemath.org. I am worried that questions asked there will get buried in 
>> the noise. Also who will care to answer questions on a daily basis? I 
>> frankly believe that the Karma on ask.sagemath.org works. On ask, if I 
>> personnaly want more Karma, which I do, I need to be the first to give an 
>> answer and it needs to be a good answer, etc. I don't feel this will happen 
>> on discourse.
>>
>> To summarize, I think Discourse looks great. I think it could be a nice way 
>> of developing a new community of SageMath users (in the spirit of 
>> http://planet.sagemath.org/?). But I don't think it may be a replacement for 
>> ask.sagemath.org or zulip.sagemath.org. Discourse, zulip and ask are three 
>> different things that are not meant to replace one another.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Sébastien Labbé
>>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2 July 2024 08:47:48 BST, "Sébastien Labbé"  wrote:
>
>
>On Monday, July 1, 2024 at 10:41:35 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
>
>I share the same skepticism about using GitHub Discussions. 
>But Discourse would be a direct replacement for AskBot; it is widely used 
>with the same user-facing, not developer-centric, role.
>
>
>I checked Discourse Group yesterday [https://www.discourse.org/features]. 
>It seems to be a nice tool that many persons may like. I see it as a kind 
>of sagemath related social network. I believe that people may use it to 
>share stuff that they create, etc, maybe also for asking questions. But, it 
>does not seem to be a "question based" website as it is currently the case 
>for ask.sagemath.org.

you might look instead at something like
https://discourse.jupyter.org, 
which obviously functions mostly as a question  collection of forums.
(e.g. cf.
)

There is no numerical karma points on Jupyter Discourse - but it can be turned 
on:




 I am worried that questions asked there will get 
>buried in the noise. Also who will care to answer questions on a daily 
>basis? I frankly believe that the Karma on ask.sagemath.org works. On ask, 
>if I personnaly want more Karma, which I do, I need to be the first to give 
>an answer and it needs to be a good answer, etc. I don't feel this will 
>happen on discourse.

we can turn Karma on.

>
>To summarize, I think Discourse looks great. I think it could be a nice way 
>of developing a new community of SageMath users (in the spirit of 
>http://planet.sagemath.org/?). But I don't think it may be a replacement 
>for ask.sagemath.org or zulip.sagemath.org. Discourse, zulip and ask are 
>three different things that are not meant to replace one another.

Discourse is not meant to be as interactive as zulip, but it definitely can 
replace askbot - which is clearly a legacy, a digital debt which has to be 
restructured and paid off, otherwise one day it comes crushing down.
Discourse has many things askbot does not have, e.g. posting by email.
And it can be self hosted - if desired.

E.g. we can think of hosting Discourse where we currently host askbot.

Best,
Dima


>
>Sincerely,
>
>Sébastien Labbé
>  
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

Karma and other gamification instruments are apparently available as a 
plugin. https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-gamification/225916

On Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 12:47:48 AM UTC-7 Sébastien Labbé wrote:

> On Monday, July 1, 2024 at 10:41:35 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
>
> I share the same skepticism about using GitHub Discussions. 
> But Discourse would be a direct replacement for AskBot; it is widely used 
> with the same user-facing, not developer-centric, role.
>
>
> I checked Discourse Group yesterday [https://www.discourse.org/features]. 
> It seems to be a nice tool that many persons may like. I see it as a kind 
> of sagemath related social network. I believe that people may use it to 
> share stuff that they create, etc, maybe also for asking questions. But, it 
> does not seem to be a "question based" website as it is currently the case 
> for ask.sagemath.org. I am worried that questions asked there will get 
> buried in the noise. Also who will care to answer questions on a daily 
> basis? I frankly believe that the Karma on ask.sagemath.org works. On 
> ask, if I personnaly want more Karma, which I do, I need to be the first to 
> give an answer and it needs to be a good answer, etc. I don't feel this 
> will happen on discourse.
>
> To summarize, I think Discourse looks great. I think it could be a nice 
> way of developing a new community of SageMath users (in the spirit of 
> http://planet.sagemath.org/?). But I don't think it may be a replacement 
> for ask.sagemath.org or zulip.sagemath.org. Discourse, zulip and ask are 
> three different things that are not meant to replace one another.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Sébastien Labbé
>   
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Sébastien Labbé]

On Monday, July 1, 2024 at 10:41:35 PM UTC+2 Matthias Koeppe wrote:


I share the same skepticism about using GitHub Discussions. 
But Discourse would be a direct replacement for AskBot; it is widely used 
with the same user-facing, not developer-centric, role.


I checked Discourse Group yesterday [https://www.discourse.org/features]. 
It seems to be a nice tool that many persons may like. I see it as a kind 
of sagemath related social network. I believe that people may use it to 
share stuff that they create, etc, maybe also for asking questions. But, it 
does not seem to be a "question based" website as it is currently the case 
for ask.sagemath.org. I am worried that questions asked there will get 
buried in the noise. Also who will care to answer questions on a daily 
basis? I frankly believe that the Karma on ask.sagemath.org works. On ask, 
if I personnaly want more Karma, which I do, I need to be the first to give 
an answer and it needs to be a good answer, etc. I don't feel this will 
happen on discourse.

To summarize, I think Discourse looks great. I think it could be a nice way 
of developing a new community of SageMath users (in the spirit of 
http://planet.sagemath.org/?). But I don't think it may be a replacement 
for ask.sagemath.org or zulip.sagemath.org. Discourse, zulip and ask are 
three different things that are not meant to replace one another.

Sincerely,

Sébastien Labbé
  

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

I might try to admin there a bit.

On 1 July 2024 20:32:13 BST, Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
>On Sunday, June 30, 2024 at 7:45:41 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>I'd rather seriously consider moving to Discourse (which does have an 
>importer from askbot)
>
>
>I've created https://sagemath-test.discourse.group/ so that people can try 
>out this system.
>
>I've also sent out a few individual invites. People who would like to help 
>configure it: I can elevate you to the admin role.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Monday, July 1, 2024 at 6:18:36 AM UTC-7 Sébastien Labbé wrote:

I don't visit ask.sagemath.org much, so others who are regulars there may 
correct me, but it seems that the whole downvoting/upvoting / karma / 
accepting answers mechanism of this forum may have little value, as most 
questions have 0 or 1 answers. So if that's lost in the migration, perhaps 
not much is lost.


ask.sagemath.org receives questions and answers on a regular basis and 
still today. Not later than last week, a user was happy for my answer : 
https://ask.sagemath.org/question/77821/stanley-reisner-ideal-from-polytope/. 
Also, I would say it is mainly a community of *users* of SageMath. 
Questions are asked by users. But, also, the answers are given mostly by 
users that are no so much developers. [...] I think moving ask to some 
website made for developers (e.g. Github Discussion?) is very bad idea, 
because it will kill this community of users which is still alive today.


I share the same skepticism about using GitHub Discussions. 
But Discourse would be a direct replacement for AskBot; it is widely used 
with the same user-facing, not developer-centric, role.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Sunday, June 30, 2024 at 7:45:41 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

I'd rather seriously consider moving to Discourse (which does have an 
importer from askbot)


I've created https://sagemath-test.discourse.group/ so that people can try 
out this system.

I've also sent out a few individual invites. People who would like to help 
configure it: I can elevate you to the admin role.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Sunday, June 30, 2024 at 7:45:41 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 4:14 AM Matthias Koeppe 
 wrote: 
> 
> Another migration route that we could consider: 
> Importing the messages from AskBot into Google Groups (merging with the 
sage-support group). 

Google Groups' interface is pretty bad, one cannot do maths, or 
properly format things. 
(and who knows for how much longer they keep it free, or support it at 
all...) 

I'd rather seriously consider moving to Discourse (which does have an 
importer from askbot)


Yes, this would also be my top preference. 
Then we should also look into importing all messages of the sage-support 
list (and perhaps also sage-devel) into Discourse and then closing the 
Google Groups.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Marc Culler]

Thank you Sébastien for standing up for users, for distinguishing between 
users and developers, and for recognizing that those two groups have 
different needs.  May your Karma increase exponentially!

- Marc

On Monday, July 1, 2024 at 8:18:36 AM UTC-5 Sébastien Labbé wrote:

> I don't visit ask.sagemath.org much, so others who are regulars there may 
> correct me, but it seems that the whole downvoting/upvoting / karma / 
> accepting answers mechanism of this forum may have little value, as most 
> questions have 0 or 1 answers. So if that's lost in the migration, perhaps 
> not much is lost.
>
>
>  
>
> ask.sagemath.org receives questions and answers on a regular basis and 
> still today. Not later than last week, a user was happy for my answer : 
> https://ask.sagemath.org/question/77821/stanley-reisner-ideal-from-polytope/. 
> Also, I would say it is mainly a community of *users* of SageMath. 
> Questions are asked by users. But, also, the answers are given mostly by 
> users that are no so much developers. For instance Samuel Lelièvre, Karl 
> Crisman, Thierry Monteil, rburing are among those [
> https://ask.sagemath.org/users/] who have answered the most questions and 
> gathered more that 1 points of Karma. I don't agree that this has 
> little value: I dare anyone here to reach this value! But you will not see 
> these top Karma users in the top committers of the git of sagemath. It is 
> just another way of investing the community. By answering questions on a 
> daily basis, Samuel, Karl and Thierry gathered through the years an 
> enormous experience of what a normal user of SageMath needs are, and what 
> improvements should be made to SageMath, etc. I have great respect for them 
> and for the time they and many others have spent on ask trying to provide 
> the best answers. I think moving ask to some website made for developers 
> (e.g. Github Discussion?) is very bad idea, because it will kill this 
> community of users which is still alive today.
>
> Sébastien
>
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Sébastien Labbé]

I don't visit ask.sagemath.org much, so others who are regulars there may 
correct me, but it seems that the whole downvoting/upvoting / karma / 
accepting answers mechanism of this forum may have little value, as most 
questions have 0 or 1 answers. So if that's lost in the migration, perhaps 
not much is lost.


 

ask.sagemath.org receives questions and answers on a regular basis and 
still today. Not later than last week, a user was happy for my answer : 
https://ask.sagemath.org/question/77821/stanley-reisner-ideal-from-polytope/. 
Also, I would say it is mainly a community of *users* of SageMath. 
Questions are asked by users. But, also, the answers are given mostly by 
users that are no so much developers. For instance Samuel Lelièvre, Karl 
Crisman, Thierry Monteil, rburing are among those 
[https://ask.sagemath.org/users/] who have answered the most questions and 
gathered more that 1 points of Karma. I don't agree that this has 
little value: I dare anyone here to reach this value! But you will not see 
these top Karma users in the top committers of the git of sagemath. It is 
just another way of investing the community. By answering questions on a 
daily basis, Samuel, Karl and Thierry gathered through the years an 
enormous experience of what a normal user of SageMath needs are, and what 
improvements should be made to SageMath, etc. I have great respect for them 
and for the time they and many others have spent on ask trying to provide 
the best answers. I think moving ask to some website made for developers 
(e.g. Github Discussion?) is very bad idea, because it will kill this 
community of users which is still alive today.

Sébastien


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Emmanuel Charpentier]

Le dimanche 30 juin 2024 à 16:45:41 UTC+2, Dima Pasechnik a écrit :

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 4:14 AM Matthias Koeppe 
 wrote: 
> 
> Another migration route that we could consider: 
> Importing the messages from AskBot into Google Groups (merging with the 
sage-support group). 

Google Groups' interface is pretty bad, one cannot do maths, or 
properly format things.


This is important for our subjects. :

   - For code, one can make do with the  "Markdown Here" plugin, but 
   - I am not aware of any convenient way to use LaTeX.


The only workaround I found was to use emacs' sage-shell's inline 
typesetting , export the result to PNG and paste that *as a picture* in 
Google groups' Web interface. Choreish enough to be dissuasive, and 
sometimes ugly as hell...

BTW  : if anybody is aware of a way to get typeset snippets in the damn 
Google Groups interface, I'd be delighted too hear frim him/her...
 


(and who knows for how much longer they keep it free, or support it at 
all...) 

I'd rather seriously consider moving to Discourse (which does have an 
importer from askbot)


and is yet another nosy cookie monster... I have to use it for mc-stan (a 
probabilistic (Bayesian) modeling tool) Q&A, and do not relish it...

My two (€)cents...
 

> 
> I don't visit ask.sagemath.org much, so others who are regulars there may 
correct me, but it seems that the whole downvoting/upvoting / karma / 
accepting answers mechanism of this forum may have little value, as most 
questions have 0 or 1 answers. So if that's lost in the migration, perhaps 
not much is lost. 
> 
> Importing stuff via mailbox files to Google Groups is explained for 
example in 
https://geek.co.il/2018/05/16/migrating-google-groups-archives-between-accounts 
> 
> On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote: 
>> 
>> Reviving this old thread from 2021, as we are currently taking stock of 
the project infrastructure (discussion in 
https://groups.google.com/g/sagemath-admins, updating the wiki page 
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/Infrastructure). 
>> 
>> - server uses Askbot 0.7.59 (a 2020 hotfix of a 2015 version); current: 
0.12.2 (2023) 
>> - https://ask.sagemath.org/questions/ looks at least 10 years out of 
date re web design 
>> - the "0 years ago" bug still shows 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-8 William Stein wrote: 
>>> 
>>> Good idea -- I'll do that. 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dima Pasechnik  
wrote: 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2021, 15:59 William Stein,  wrote: 
>>> >> 
>>> >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  
wrote: 
>>> >> > 
>>> >> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  
wrote: 
>>> >> > > 
>>> >> > > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off: 
>>> >> > > 
>>> >> > > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs 
did initially do the configuration at some point long ago. He was starting 
a business to support instances in exchange for money. I wonder if that is 
still around? 
>>> >> > 
>>> >> > contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/ 
>>> >> > (their own instance is running version 0.10.3) 
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> Thanks. It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would 
be 
>>> >> his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see 
below). 
>>> >> It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing 
site" 
>>> >> service anymore. An obvious question is whether or not he would also 
>>> >> migrate our existing site over to his hosted service. Also, we would 
>>> >> be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence, 
>>> >> etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage 
>>> >> and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid 
>>> >> somehow." So it seems he doesn't really provide the service 
>>> >> (namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to 
>>> >> provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to 
do). 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > they offer consulting. It won't harm to ask whether they are willing 
to do an one-off job of upgrading. 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> 30 day free trial 
>>> >> All standard features 
>>> >> SSL Support 
>>> >> Single Sign On 
>>> >> Up to 750 users 
>>> >> Daily backups 
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> > 
>>> >> > 
>>> >> > 
>>> >> > > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org 
instance? In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining 
ask.sagemath.org all these years! 
>>> >> > > 
>>> >> > > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the 
community discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* 
that somebody will set up, and see what sticks. They have a list of all the 
resources that various community members are running here, which is useful 
for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for Sage: 
https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 4:14 AM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> Another migration route that we could consider:
> Importing the messages from AskBot into Google Groups (merging with the 
> sage-support group).

Google Groups' interface is pretty bad, one cannot do maths, or
properly format things.
(and who knows for how much longer they keep it free, or support it at all...)

I'd rather seriously consider moving to Discourse (which does have an
importer from askbot)


>
> I don't visit ask.sagemath.org much, so others who are regulars there may 
> correct me, but it seems that the whole downvoting/upvoting / karma / 
> accepting answers mechanism of this forum may have little value, as most 
> questions have 0 or 1 answers. So if that's lost in the migration, perhaps 
> not much is lost.
>
> Importing stuff via mailbox files to Google Groups is explained for example 
> in 
> https://geek.co.il/2018/05/16/migrating-google-groups-archives-between-accounts
>
> On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>>
>> Reviving this old thread from 2021, as we are currently taking stock of the 
>> project infrastructure (discussion in 
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sagemath-admins, updating the wiki page 
>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/Infrastructure).
>>
>> - server uses Askbot 0.7.59 (a 2020 hotfix of a 2015 version); current: 
>> 0.12.2 (2023)
>> - https://ask.sagemath.org/questions/ looks at least 10 years out of date re 
>> web design
>> - the "0 years ago" bug still shows
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-8 William Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> Good idea -- I'll do that.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2021, 15:59 William Stein,  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs did 
>>> >> > > initially do the configuration at some point long ago. He was 
>>> >> > > starting a business to support instances in exchange for money. I 
>>> >> > > wonder if that is still around?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/
>>> >> > (their own instance is running version 0.10.3)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks. It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would be
>>> >> his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see below).
>>> >> It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing site"
>>> >> service anymore. An obvious question is whether or not he would also
>>> >> migrate our existing site over to his hosted service. Also, we would
>>> >> be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence,
>>> >> etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage
>>> >> and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid
>>> >> somehow." So it seems he doesn't really provide the service
>>> >> (namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to
>>> >> provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to do).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > they offer consulting. It won't harm to ask whether they are willing to 
>>> > do an one-off job of upgrading.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> 30 day free trial
>>> >> All standard features
>>> >> SSL Support
>>> >> Single Sign On
>>> >> Up to 750 users
>>> >> Daily backups
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org 
>>> >> > > instance? In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining 
>>> >> > > ask.sagemath.org all these years!
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the community 
>>> >> > > discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* 
>>> >> > > that somebody will set up, and see what sticks. They have a list of 
>>> >> > > all the resources that various community members are running here, 
>>> >> > > which is useful for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding 
>>> >> > > what's available for Sage: 
>>> >> > > https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
>>> >> > > My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate 
>>> >> > > are (1) github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is 
>>> >> > > *very* active. Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with 
>>> >> > > Discourse, and solves a completely different problem. We also use 
>>> >> > > Discord for CoCalc, and it has a manageable steady stream of 
>>> >> > > activity (in fact, some discussion there is about Sage). One aspect 
>>> >> > > of Discord is that answers don't seem to get indexed by Google; it's 
>>> >> > > very different than ask.sagemath.org or Discourse. I think the Sage 
>>> >> > > community currently has no *active* general realtime community c

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

Another migration route that we could consider:
Importing the messages from AskBot into Google Groups (merging with the 
sage-support group).

I don't visit ask.sagemath.org much, so others who are regulars there may 
correct me, but it seems that the whole downvoting/upvoting / karma / 
accepting answers mechanism of this forum may have little value, as most 
questions have 0 or 1 answers. So if that's lost in the migration, perhaps 
not much is lost.

Importing stuff via mailbox files to Google Groups is explained for example 
in 
https://geek.co.il/2018/05/16/migrating-google-groups-archives-between-accounts

On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 10:18:45 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

> Reviving this old thread from 2021, as we are currently taking stock of 
> the project infrastructure (discussion in 
> https://groups.google.com/g/sagemath-admins, updating the wiki page 
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/Infrastructure).
>
> - server uses Askbot 0.7.59 (a 2020 hotfix of a 2015 version); current: 
> 0.12.2 (2023)
> - https://ask.sagemath.org/questions/ looks at least 10 years out of date 
> re web design
> - the "0 years ago" bug still shows
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-8 William Stein wrote:
>
>> Good idea -- I'll do that. 
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote: 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2021, 15:59 William Stein,  wrote: 
>> >> 
>> >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  
>> wrote: 
>> >> > 
>> >> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  
>> wrote: 
>> >> > > 
>> >> > > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off: 
>> >> > > 
>> >> > > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs 
>> did initially do the configuration at some point long ago. He was starting 
>> a business to support instances in exchange for money. I wonder if that is 
>> still around? 
>> >> > 
>> >> > contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/ 
>> >> > (their own instance is running version 0.10.3) 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> Thanks. It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would be 
>> >> his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see below). 
>> >> It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing site" 
>> >> service anymore. An obvious question is whether or not he would also 
>> >> migrate our existing site over to his hosted service. Also, we would 
>> >> be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence, 
>> >> etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage 
>> >> and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid 
>> >> somehow." So it seems he doesn't really provide the service 
>> >> (namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to 
>> >> provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to do). 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > they offer consulting. It won't harm to ask whether they are willing to 
>> do an one-off job of upgrading. 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 30 day free trial 
>> >> All standard features 
>> >> SSL Support 
>> >> Single Sign On 
>> >> Up to 750 users 
>> >> Daily backups 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> > 
>> >> > 
>> >> > 
>> >> > > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org 
>> instance? In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining 
>> ask.sagemath.org all these years! 
>> >> > > 
>> >> > > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the 
>> community discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* 
>> that somebody will set up, and see what sticks. They have a list of all the 
>> resources that various community members are running here, which is useful 
>> for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for Sage: 
>> https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community 
>> >> > > My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate 
>> are (1) github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very* 
>> active. Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse, and 
>> solves a completely different problem. We also use Discord for CoCalc, and 
>> it has a manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some discussion 
>> there is about Sage). One aspect of Discord is that answers don't seem to 
>> get indexed by Google; it's very different than ask.sagemath.org or 
>> Discourse. I think the Sage community currently has no *active* general 
>> realtime community chat, though we used to all use IRC for Sage very 
>> heavily a long time ago, and I think Gitter was also popular at one point. 
>> There's the Zulip for Sage here https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html 
>> but it's not that active. A point in favor of Discord is that it is what 
>> all the kids are currently using to discuss video games, hence they are 
>> likely to already be using it, and get notifications, etc; it's also very 
>> functional for free (unlike Slack). 
>> >> > > 
>> >> > > - Github has a free thing that

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Kwankyu Lee]

On Thursday, June 27, 2024 at 11:33:16 PM UTC+9 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 9:44 AM Kwankyu Lee wrote:

Tangentially related: why don't we use GitHub Discussions, for whatever 
discussions? Does it cost?


no, it does not, but it's the question of potential importing/exporting 
data. It appears to be not quite supported:
https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/3315


I see. Thanks. 

But exporting the entire data in the drastic situation that we leave from 
github seems a different matter from github providing data export feature 
as regular API. 
  

IMHO Discussions appear as an off-shot of Issues, so that Issues are not 
used for not pointedly technical issues.
(They also have Polls - something that is potentially useful)


I agree.  Discussions is for all other issues that do not fit github 
Issues, which is oriented for technical issues seeking solutions as PRs. 

We may run Discussions as a place to discuss wishlist items, questions, 
ideas, and planning, etc. or as developer blog. 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 9:44 AM Kwankyu Lee  wrote:

> Tangentially related: why don't we use GitHub Discussions, for whatever
> discussions? Does it cost?


no, it does not, but it's the question of potential importing/exporting
data. It appears to be not quite supported:
https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/3315

IMHO Discussions appear as an off-shot of Issues, so that Issues are not
used for not pointedly technical issues.
(They also have Polls - something that is potentially useful)

Dima



>
> Kwankyu
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/d8fd482f-27af-4a21-8036-9b4dcff7cf4an%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Kwankyu Lee]

Tangentially related: why don't we use GitHub Discussions, for whatever 
discussions? Does it cost?

Kwankyu

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

Reviving this old thread from 2021, as we are currently taking stock of the 
project infrastructure (discussion in 
https://groups.google.com/g/sagemath-admins, updating the wiki 
page https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/Infrastructure).

- server uses Askbot 0.7.59 (a 2020 hotfix of a 2015 version); current: 
0.12.2 (2023)
- https://ask.sagemath.org/questions/ looks at least 10 years out of date 
re web design
- the "0 years ago" bug still shows


On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-8 William Stein wrote:

> Good idea -- I'll do that.
>
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2021, 15:59 William Stein,  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  
> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:
> >> > >
> >> > > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs 
> did initially do the configuration at some point long ago. He was starting 
> a business to support instances in exchange for money. I wonder if that is 
> still around?
> >> >
> >> > contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/
> >> > (their own instance is running version 0.10.3)
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks. It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would be
> >> his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see below).
> >> It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing site"
> >> service anymore. An obvious question is whether or not he would also
> >> migrate our existing site over to his hosted service. Also, we would
> >> be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence,
> >> etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage
> >> and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid
> >> somehow." So it seems he doesn't really provide the service
> >> (namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to
> >> provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to do).
> >
> >
> > they offer consulting. It won't harm to ask whether they are willing to 
> do an one-off job of upgrading.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 30 day free trial
> >> All standard features
> >> SSL Support
> >> Single Sign On
> >> Up to 750 users
> >> Daily backups
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org 
> instance? In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining 
> ask.sagemath.org all these years!
> >> > >
> >> > > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the 
> community discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* 
> that somebody will set up, and see what sticks. They have a list of all the 
> resources that various community members are running here, which is useful 
> for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for Sage: 
> https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
> >> > > My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate 
> are (1) github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very* 
> active. Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse, and 
> solves a completely different problem. We also use Discord for CoCalc, and 
> it has a manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some discussion 
> there is about Sage). One aspect of Discord is that answers don't seem to 
> get indexed by Google; it's very different than ask.sagemath.org or 
> Discourse. I think the Sage community currently has no *active* general 
> realtime community chat, though we used to all use IRC for Sage very 
> heavily a long time ago, and I think Gitter was also popular at one point. 
> There's the Zulip for Sage here https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html 
> but it's not that active. A point in favor of Discord is that it is what 
> all the kids are currently using to discuss video games, hence they are 
> likely to already be using it, and get notifications, etc; it's also very 
> functional for free (unlike Slack).
> >> > >
> >> > > - Github has a free thing that is supposed to compete with 
> Discourse, I think, called "Github Discussions". I tried encouraging people 
> to use Github Discussions for CoCalc (see 
> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions), e.g., by linking to 
> it in a few places, but it is totally dead. Nobody uses it. I'm not sure 
> why.
> >> > >
> >> > > -- William
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Thierry  
> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
> >> > >> > Some hopefully-useful comments:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I 
> think we
> >> > >> > > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> >> > >> > > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> >> > >> > > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > 50

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[William Stein]

Good idea -- I'll do that.

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021, 15:59 William Stein,  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:
>> > >
>> > > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs did 
>> > > initially do the configuration at some point long ago.  He was starting 
>> > > a business to support instances in exchange for money.  I wonder if that 
>> > > is still around?
>> >
>> > contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/
>> > (their own instance is running version 0.10.3)
>>
>>
>> Thanks.  It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would be
>> his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see below).
>> It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing site"
>> service anymore.  An obvious question is whether or not he would also
>> migrate our existing site over to his hosted service.  Also, we would
>> be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence,
>> etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage
>> and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid
>> somehow."  So it seems he doesn't really provide the service
>> (namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to
>> provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to do).
>
>
> they offer consulting. It won't harm to ask whether they are willing to do an 
> one-off job of upgrading.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> 30 day free trial
>> All standard features
>> SSL Support
>> Single Sign On
>> Up to 750 users
>> Daily backups
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org instance?  
>> > > In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining ask.sagemath.org all 
>> > > these years!
>> > >
>> > > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the community 
>> > > discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* that 
>> > > somebody will set up, and see what sticks.   They have a list of all the 
>> > > resources that various community members are running here, which is 
>> > > useful for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available 
>> > > for Sage:  https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
>> > > My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate are 
>> > > (1) github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very* 
>> > > active.   Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse, 
>> > > and solves a completely different problem.  We also use Discord for 
>> > > CoCalc, and it has a manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some 
>> > > discussion there is about Sage).  One aspect of Discord is that answers 
>> > > don't seem to get indexed by Google; it's very different than 
>> > > ask.sagemath.org or Discourse.I think the Sage community currently 
>> > > has no *active* general realtime community chat, though we used to all 
>> > > use IRC for Sage very heavily a long time ago, and I think Gitter was 
>> > > also popular at one point.  There's the Zulip for Sage here 
>> > > https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html but it's not that active.   
>> > >  A point in favor of Discord is that it is what all the kids are 
>> > > currently using to discuss video games, hence they are likely to already 
>> > > be using it, and get notifications, etc; it's also very functional for 
>> > > free (unlike Slack).
>> > >
>> > > - Github has a free thing that is supposed to compete with Discourse, I 
>> > > think, called "Github Discussions".   I tried encouraging people to use 
>> > > Github Discussions for CoCalc (see 
>> > > https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions), e.g., by linking to 
>> > > it in a few places, but it is totally dead.  Nobody uses it.   I'm not 
>> > > sure why.
>> > >
>> > >  -- William
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Thierry 
>> > >  wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
>> > >> > Some hopefully-useful comments:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I 
>> > >> > think we
>> > >> > > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
>> > >> > > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
>> > >> > > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > 50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the 
>> > >> > Sage ERP
>> > >> > software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of ask.sagemath? 
>> > >> >  But
>> > >> > see below.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
>> > >> > > - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > negligible
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50
>> > >> > questions in the past 18 

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2021, 15:59 William Stein,  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:
> > >
> > > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs did
> initially do the configuration at some point long ago.  He was starting a
> business to support instances in exchange for money.  I wonder if that is
> still around?
> >
> > contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/
> > (their own instance is running version 0.10.3)
>
>
> Thanks.  It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would be
> his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see below).
> It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing site"
> service anymore.  An obvious question is whether or not he would also
> migrate our existing site over to his hosted service.  Also, we would
> be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence,
> etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage
> and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid
> somehow."  So it seems he doesn't really provide the service
> (namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to
> provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to do).
>

they offer consulting. It won't harm to ask whether they are willing to do
an one-off job of upgrading.



>
>
> 30 day free trial
> All standard features
> SSL Support
> Single Sign On
> Up to 750 users
> Daily backups
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org
> instance?  In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining
> ask.sagemath.org all these years!
> > >
> > > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the community
> discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* that
> somebody will set up, and see what sticks.   They have a list of all the
> resources that various community members are running here, which is useful
> for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for
> Sage:  https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
> > > My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate are
> (1) github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very*
> active.   Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse,
> and solves a completely different problem.  We also use Discord for CoCalc,
> and it has a manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some discussion
> there is about Sage).  One aspect of Discord is that answers don't seem to
> get indexed by Google; it's very different than ask.sagemath.org or
> Discourse.I think the Sage community currently has no *active* general
> realtime community chat, though we used to all use IRC for Sage very
> heavily a long time ago, and I think Gitter was also popular at one point.
> There's the Zulip for Sage here https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html
> but it's not that active.A point in favor of Discord is that it is
> what all the kids are currently using to discuss video games, hence they
> are likely to already be using it, and get notifications, etc; it's also
> very functional for free (unlike Slack).
> > >
> > > - Github has a free thing that is supposed to compete with Discourse,
> I think, called "Github Discussions".   I tried encouraging people to use
> Github Discussions for CoCalc (see
> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions), e.g., by linking to
> it in a few places, but it is totally dead.  Nobody uses it.   I'm not sure
> why.
> > >
> > >  -- William
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Thierry <
> sage-googlesu...@lma.metelu.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
> > >> > Some hopefully-useful comments:
> > >> >
> > >> > Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I
> think we
> > >> > > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> > >> > > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> > >> > > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
> > >> > >
> > >> > 50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the
> Sage ERP
> > >> > software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of
> ask.sagemath?  But
> > >> > see below.
> > >> >
> > >> > > - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
> > >> > > - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
> > >> > >
> > >> > negligible
> > >> >
> > >> > Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50
> > >> > questions in the past 18 months.
> > >> >
> > >> > Though I haven't had time to contribute to any of these regularly
> since
> > >> > somewhat before the pandemic, my observations are twofold on this:
> > >> > 1) The same people were helping on both the SE sites and
> ask.sagemath
> > >> > 2) The response time and quality (and number of answers) were all
> better on
> > >> 

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[William Stein]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:49 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  wrote:
> >
> > Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:
> >
> > - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs did 
> > initially do the configuration at some point long ago.  He was starting a 
> > business to support instances in exchange for money.  I wonder if that is 
> > still around?
>
> contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/
> (their own instance is running version 0.10.3)


Thanks.  It looks like the obvious thing we would have to buy would be
his hosting service, which is $45/month and provides this (see below).
It seems like he doesn't offer any sort of "manage your existing site"
service anymore.  An obvious question is whether or not he would also
migrate our existing site over to his hosted service.  Also, we would
be switching from "trust Thierry for backups, long term existence,
etc." to "trust random guy in Chile who has nothing to do with Sage
and also trust that William can ensure the $45/month gets paid
somehow."  So it seems he doesn't really provide the service
(namely -- help us upgrade to the latest version) that he used to
provide, and I can see why (it is probably a pain in the butt to do).

30 day free trial
All standard features
SSL Support
Single Sign On
Up to 750 users
Daily backups


>
>
>
> > If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org instance?  In 
> > any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining ask.sagemath.org all these 
> > years!
> >
> > - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the community 
> > discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* that 
> > somebody will set up, and see what sticks.   They have a list of all the 
> > resources that various community members are running here, which is useful 
> > for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for Sage: 
> >  https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
> > My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate are (1) 
> > github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very* active.   
> > Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse, and solves a 
> > completely different problem.  We also use Discord for CoCalc, and it has a 
> > manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some discussion there is 
> > about Sage).  One aspect of Discord is that answers don't seem to get 
> > indexed by Google; it's very different than ask.sagemath.org or Discourse.  
> >   I think the Sage community currently has no *active* general realtime 
> > community chat, though we used to all use IRC for Sage very heavily a long 
> > time ago, and I think Gitter was also popular at one point.  There's the 
> > Zulip for Sage here https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html but it's not 
> > that active.A point in favor of Discord is that it is what all the 
> > kids are currently using to discuss video games, hence they are likely to 
> > already be using it, and get notifications, etc; it's also very functional 
> > for free (unlike Slack).
> >
> > - Github has a free thing that is supposed to compete with Discourse, I 
> > think, called "Github Discussions".   I tried encouraging people to use 
> > Github Discussions for CoCalc (see 
> > https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions), e.g., by linking to it 
> > in a few places, but it is totally dead.  Nobody uses it.   I'm not sure 
> > why.
> >
> >  -- William
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Thierry  
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
> >> > Some hopefully-useful comments:
> >> >
> >> > Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I think we
> >> > > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> >> > > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> >> > > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
> >> > >
> >> > 50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the Sage 
> >> > ERP
> >> > software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of ask.sagemath?  
> >> > But
> >> > see below.
> >> >
> >> > > - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
> >> > > - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
> >> > >
> >> > negligible
> >> >
> >> > Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50
> >> > questions in the past 18 months.
> >> >
> >> > Though I haven't had time to contribute to any of these regularly since
> >> > somewhat before the pandemic, my observations are twofold on this:
> >> > 1) The same people were helping on both the SE sites and ask.sagemath
> >> > 2) The response time and quality (and number of answers) were all better 
> >> > on
> >> > ask.sagemath
> >> > It's possible this has changed recently, but more likely it is just that
> >> > some of the networking issues have made it less reliable, but haven't
> >> > improved service on the other sites. Contributors to

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:44 AM William Stein  wrote:
>
> Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:
>
> - The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs did 
> initially do the configuration at some point long ago.  He was starting a 
> business to support instances in exchange for money.  I wonder if that is 
> still around?

contact details, etc are here: https://askbot.com/
(their own instance is running version 0.10.3)


> If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org instance?  In 
> any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining ask.sagemath.org all these 
> years!
>
> - The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the community 
> discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* that 
> somebody will set up, and see what sticks.   They have a list of all the 
> resources that various community members are running here, which is useful 
> for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for Sage:  
> https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
> My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate are (1) 
> github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very* active.   
> Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse, and solves a 
> completely different problem.  We also use Discord for CoCalc, and it has a 
> manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some discussion there is about 
> Sage).  One aspect of Discord is that answers don't seem to get indexed by 
> Google; it's very different than ask.sagemath.org or Discourse.I think 
> the Sage community currently has no *active* general realtime community chat, 
> though we used to all use IRC for Sage very heavily a long time ago, and I 
> think Gitter was also popular at one point.  There's the Zulip for Sage here 
> https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html but it's not that active.A 
> point in favor of Discord is that it is what all the kids are currently using 
> to discuss video games, hence they are likely to already be using it, and get 
> notifications, etc; it's also very functional for free (unlike Slack).
>
> - Github has a free thing that is supposed to compete with Discourse, I 
> think, called "Github Discussions".   I tried encouraging people to use 
> Github Discussions for CoCalc (see 
> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions), e.g., by linking to it in 
> a few places, but it is totally dead.  Nobody uses it.   I'm not sure why.
>
>  -- William
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Thierry  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
>> > Some hopefully-useful comments:
>> >
>> > Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I think we
>> > > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
>> > > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
>> > > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
>> > >
>> > 50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the Sage ERP
>> > software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of ask.sagemath?  But
>> > see below.
>> >
>> > > - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
>> > > - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
>> > >
>> > negligible
>> >
>> > Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50
>> > questions in the past 18 months.
>> >
>> > Though I haven't had time to contribute to any of these regularly since
>> > somewhat before the pandemic, my observations are twofold on this:
>> > 1) The same people were helping on both the SE sites and ask.sagemath
>> > 2) The response time and quality (and number of answers) were all better on
>> > ask.sagemath
>> > It's possible this has changed recently, but more likely it is just that
>> > some of the networking issues have made it less reliable, but haven't
>> > improved service on the other sites. Contributors to answers have liked
>> > ask.sagemath.
>>
>> An additional benefit from ask.sagemath is that is it well referenced on
>> search engines, so that answers posted there can be used as a knowledge
>> database.
>>
>> > I do notice that ask.sagemath has for some time only reported "0 years
>> > ago" for recent questions - I don't think the askbot developer
>> > (https://askbot.com) has been super productive lately and of course we
>> > don't have the ability to support that software as well as Sage
>> > itself.  That seems to be more of a sticking point, though I think
>> > Thierry and Samuel will have some relevant comments on that.
>>
>> This "0 years ago" comes from a change in some javascript where, there
>> is a jump from hours to years, without knowing about days and months.
>>
>> Maybe it is fixed on another upstream branch. Note that we are still on
>> the 0.7.x branch since migrating requires some work. Indeed, when we
>> upgrade, we need to run some migration scripts that update the database
>> structure. Unfortunately, our database scheme is not exactly the same as
>> the offi

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[William Stein]

Here's some very quick thoughts, some on topic and some off:

- The original author of the software that ask.sagemath.org runs did
initially do the configuration at some point long ago.  He was starting a
business to support instances in exchange for money.  I wonder if that is
still around?  If so, maybe we could pay him to update our ask.sagemath.org
instance?  In any case, many thanks to Thierry for maintaining
ask.sagemath.org all these years!

- The ziglang community has an interesting approach to the community
discussion problem, which is just to welcome and try *everything* that
somebody will set up, and see what sticks.   They have a list of all the
resources that various community members are running here, which is useful
for ideas, in case there's interest in expanding what's available for
Sage:  https://github.com/ziglang/zig/wiki/Community
My impression with zig is that the two main ways they communicate are (1)
github issues, and (2) their Discord chat server, which is *very* active.
 Note that Discord has absolutely nothing to do with Discourse, and solves
a completely different problem.  We also use Discord for CoCalc, and it has
a manageable steady stream of activity (in fact, some discussion there is
about Sage).  One aspect of Discord is that answers don't seem to get
indexed by Google; it's very different than ask.sagemath.org or Discourse.
  I think the Sage community currently has no *active* general realtime
community chat, though we used to all use IRC for Sage very heavily a long
time ago, and I think Gitter was also popular at one point.  There's the
Zulip for Sage here https://www.sagemath.org/help-zulip.html but it's not
that active.A point in favor of Discord is that it is what all the
kids are currently using to discuss video games, hence they are likely to
already be using it, and get notifications, etc; it's also very functional
for free (unlike Slack).

- Github has a free thing that is supposed to compete with Discourse, I
think, called "Github Discussions".   I tried encouraging people to use
Github Discussions for CoCalc (see
https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions), e.g., by linking to it
in a few places, but it is totally dead.  Nobody uses it.   I'm not sure
why.

 -- William

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Thierry 
wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
> > Some hopefully-useful comments:
> >
> > Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I think
> we
> > > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> > > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> > > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
> > >
> > 50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the Sage
> ERP
> > software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of ask.sagemath?
> But
> > see below.
> >
> > > - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
> > > - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
> > >
> > negligible
> >
> > Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50
> > questions in the past 18 months.
> >
> > Though I haven't had time to contribute to any of these regularly since
> > somewhat before the pandemic, my observations are twofold on this:
> > 1) The same people were helping on both the SE sites and ask.sagemath
> > 2) The response time and quality (and number of answers) were all better
> on
> > ask.sagemath
> > It's possible this has changed recently, but more likely it is just that
> > some of the networking issues have made it less reliable, but haven't
> > improved service on the other sites. Contributors to answers have liked
> > ask.sagemath.
>
> An additional benefit from ask.sagemath is that is it well referenced on
> search engines, so that answers posted there can be used as a knowledge
> database.
>
> > I do notice that ask.sagemath has for some time only reported "0 years
> > ago" for recent questions - I don't think the askbot developer
> > (https://askbot.com) has been super productive lately and of course we
> > don't have the ability to support that software as well as Sage
> > itself.  That seems to be more of a sticking point, though I think
> > Thierry and Samuel will have some relevant comments on that.
>
> This "0 years ago" comes from a change in some javascript where, there
> is a jump from hours to years, without knowing about days and months.
>
> Maybe it is fixed on another upstream branch. Note that we are still on
> the 0.7.x branch since migrating requires some work. Indeed, when we
> upgrade, we need to run some migration scripts that update the database
> structure. Unfortunately, our database scheme is not exactly the same as
> the official one since in the early years, ask.sagemath was installed by
> askbot developper himself, who adapted the db to some needs (perhaps
> William can say more about that). We already fixed a lots of such
> things, but when i moved ask.sagemath in emergency last year from Ohio
> State University to Paris Nor

Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Thierry]

On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:00:54AM -0800, kcrisman wrote:
> Some hopefully-useful comments:
> 
> Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I think we 
> > are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> > - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> > - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
> >
> 50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the Sage ERP 
> software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of ask.sagemath?  But 
> see below.
> 
> > - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
> > - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
> >
> negligible
>  
> Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50 
> questions in the past 18 months. 
> 
> Though I haven't had time to contribute to any of these regularly since 
> somewhat before the pandemic, my observations are twofold on this:
> 1) The same people were helping on both the SE sites and ask.sagemath
> 2) The response time and quality (and number of answers) were all better on 
> ask.sagemath
> It's possible this has changed recently, but more likely it is just that 
> some of the networking issues have made it less reliable, but haven't 
> improved service on the other sites. Contributors to answers have liked 
> ask.sagemath.

An additional benefit from ask.sagemath is that is it well referenced on
search engines, so that answers posted there can be used as a knowledge
database.

> I do notice that ask.sagemath has for some time only reported "0 years
> ago" for recent questions - I don't think the askbot developer
> (https://askbot.com) has been super productive lately and of course we
> don't have the ability to support that software as well as Sage
> itself.  That seems to be more of a sticking point, though I think
> Thierry and Samuel will have some relevant comments on that.

This "0 years ago" comes from a change in some javascript where, there
is a jump from hours to years, without knowing about days and months.

Maybe it is fixed on another upstream branch. Note that we are still on
the 0.7.x branch since migrating requires some work. Indeed, when we
upgrade, we need to run some migration scripts that update the database
structure. Unfortunately, our database scheme is not exactly the same as
the official one since in the early years, ask.sagemath was installed by
askbot developper himself, who adapted the db to some needs (perhaps
William can say more about that). We already fixed a lots of such
things, but when i moved ask.sagemath in emergency last year from Ohio
State University to Paris North University, i updated the versions until
i fall on some database migration issue and did not go further. This
might not be that hard to fix, but it is pretty boring (one have to
understand where is the bug, do some sql to adapt our tweaked database
to what it is supposed to be, and try again to see if the migration
script pass).

If someone from the community is willing to give a try, i could set up a
separated container, that is a duplicate of the current production
server and provide an SSH access.

> As for sage-support, it's always surprising to me how many "customers"
> simply disappear as soon as you mention asking a question there -
> somehow they either want a Q&A site, or to ask on Facebook, or
> whatever.  I don't really know why this happens, but clearly the Q&A
> sites (in toto) are necessary.

It is a pity that sage-support is not well referenced by search engines
since there are some pretty good answers there. If i understand
correctly, on discourse it is possible to ask and answer questions by
email, so that people that prefer the sage-support way could contribute
as well. However, i think that merging ask.sagemath and sage-support
into some discourse instance and keep all links well redirected will
require quite some work.

Ciao,
Thierry


> Finally, to anticipate a question that has come up in the past on this 
> issue, I had previously inquired with a SE employee about transferring 
> data, and it seems it's not really a viable option.  (As a very tangential 
> note, one could make a similar observation about Trac versus GH/GL - could 
> one take all those very useful discussions and import them?)
> 
> -- 
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[jplab]

Hello,

I think it is a fair question to consider whether we need AskSage. This 
discussion reminded me of a previous thread in the group which I think is 
still worth reading today:
Sage Stack Exchange Site: 
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/hwEhxaetakk/m/XSWWUYS9LCwJ

While the discussion certainly dates from a different era of Sage, I think 
that certain arguments didn't change, in particular that "a fully free QA 
site was more consistent with the values of the Sage community" rather than 
a StackExchange hosting [Niles Johnson, from the above discussion].

+1 for a fully free QA page that lets people easily ask questions from a 
broad range of subscriptions platforms (google, facebook, name-it,... 
somehow I also do believe that average users like this better than a 
minimal forum).

Best,
J-P



Le samedi 11 décembre 2021 à 16:39:04 UTC-5, dim...@gmail.com a écrit :

>
>
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021, 17:58 Emmanuel Charpentier,  
> wrote:
>
>> Discourse is somewhat nosy : I have to use it for questions related to 
>> Stan ...
>>
>
> Nosy? Discourse can be self-hosted.
>
> While askbot promises a new version in February, it's obviously a small 
> platform.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le samedi 11 décembre 2021 à 18:52:34 UTC+1, Matthias Koeppe a écrit :
>>
>>> On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 7:00:54 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>>>
  As for sage-support, it's always surprising to me how many "customers" 
 simply disappear as soon as you mention asking a question there - somehow 
 they either want a Q&A site, or to ask on Facebook, or whatever.  I don't 
 really know why this happens, but clearly the Q&A sites (in toto) are 
 necessary.


>>> Another option may be to move to Discourse. Many projects use it, 
>>> including https://discuss.python.org/ and 
>>> https://discourse.julialang.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://meta.discourse.org/t/easy-way-to-migrate-askbot-to-discourse/148677
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "sage-devel" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/8da2cc03-032a-483d-9d44-5de4a4c4e3d2n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021, 17:58 Emmanuel Charpentier, <
emanuel.charpent...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Discourse is somewhat nosy : I have to use it for questions related to
> Stan ...
>

Nosy? Discourse can be self-hosted.

While askbot promises a new version in February, it's obviously a small
platform.


>
>
>
> Le samedi 11 décembre 2021 à 18:52:34 UTC+1, Matthias Koeppe a écrit :
>
>> On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 7:00:54 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>>
>>>  As for sage-support, it's always surprising to me how many "customers"
>>> simply disappear as soon as you mention asking a question there - somehow
>>> they either want a Q&A site, or to ask on Facebook, or whatever.  I don't
>>> really know why this happens, but clearly the Q&A sites (in toto) are
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>>
>> Another option may be to move to Discourse. Many projects use it,
>> including https://discuss.python.org/ and
>> https://discourse.julialang.org/
>>
>>
>> https://meta.discourse.org/t/easy-way-to-migrate-askbot-to-discourse/148677
>>
>>
>>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/8da2cc03-032a-483d-9d44-5de4a4c4e3d2n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Emmanuel Charpentier]

Discourse is somewhat nosy : I have to use it for questions related to Stan 
...

Le samedi 11 décembre 2021 à 18:52:34 UTC+1, Matthias Koeppe a écrit :

> On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 7:00:54 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>
>>  As for sage-support, it's always surprising to me how many "customers" 
>> simply disappear as soon as you mention asking a question there - somehow 
>> they either want a Q&A site, or to ask on Facebook, or whatever.  I don't 
>> really know why this happens, but clearly the Q&A sites (in toto) are 
>> necessary.
>>
>>
> Another option may be to move to Discourse. Many projects use it, 
> including https://discuss.python.org/ and https://discourse.julialang.org/
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/easy-way-to-migrate-askbot-to-discourse/148677
>
>  
>

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[sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 7:00:54 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:

>  As for sage-support, it's always surprising to me how many "customers" 
> simply disappear as soon as you mention asking a question there - somehow 
> they either want a Q&A site, or to ask on Facebook, or whatever.  I don't 
> really know why this happens, but clearly the Q&A sites (in toto) are 
> necessary.
>
>
Another option may be to move to Discourse. Many projects use it, 
including https://discuss.python.org/ and https://discourse.julialang.org/

https://meta.discourse.org/t/easy-way-to-migrate-askbot-to-discourse/148677

 

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[sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[kcrisman]

Some hopefully-useful comments:

Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server. I think we 
> are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
>
50 questions in last 6 months - thankfully, not as many about the Sage ERP 
software as in the past - so nowhere near the volume of ask.sagemath?  But 
see below.

> - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
> - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
>
negligible
 
Also https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sagemath - 50 
questions in the past 18 months. 

Though I haven't had time to contribute to any of these regularly since 
somewhat before the pandemic, my observations are twofold on this:
1) The same people were helping on both the SE sites and ask.sagemath
2) The response time and quality (and number of answers) were all better on 
ask.sagemath
It's possible this has changed recently, but more likely it is just that 
some of the networking issues have made it less reliable, but haven't 
improved service on the other sites. Contributors to answers have liked 
ask.sagemath.

I do notice that ask.sagemath has for some time only reported "0 years ago" 
for recent questions - I don't think the askbot developer 
(https://askbot.com) has been super productive lately and of course we 
don't have the ability to support that software as well as Sage itself. 
 That seems to be more of a sticking point, though I think Thierry and 
Samuel will have some relevant comments on that.
 
As for sage-support, it's always surprising to me how many "customers" 
simply disappear as soon as you mention asking a question there - somehow 
they either want a Q&A site, or to ask on Facebook, or whatever.  I don't 
really know why this happens, but clearly the Q&A sites (in toto) are 
necessary.

Finally, to anticipate a question that has come up in the past on this 
issue, I had previously inquired with a SE employee about transferring 
data, and it seems it's not really a viable option.  (As a very tangential 
note, one could make a similar observation about Trac versus GH/GL - could 
one take all those very useful discussions and import them?)

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[sage-devel] Re: ask.sagemath.org issues - do we need it?

[Samuel Lelievre]

2021-12-10, Matthias Koeppe:

> I have received a report that ask.sagemath.org account management is 
> broken:
> > das "recover account" jedoch funktioniert jedoch nicht.
> > wenn man auf den button klickt passiert lange nichts,

> und irgendwann "504 Gateway Time-out".
>
> I don't normally use ask.sagemath.org myself, but to reproduce
>
the reported error, I've tried logging in using Google and also
>
eventually got a 504.
>
> https://ask.sagemath.org/account/signin/complete-oauth2/?state=&scope=email+profile+https%3A%2F%2Fwww.googleapis.com%2Fauth%2Fuserinfo.profile+https%3A%2F%2Fwww.googleapis.com%2Fauth%2Fuserinfo.email+openid&authuser=0&prompt=consent#
>
> Overall, I am not sure why the project is running this server.
>
I think we are spreading ourselves pretty thin here. There is also:
> - https://groups.google.com/g/sage-support
> - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sage
> - https://stackexchange.com/search?q=sage
> - https://mathoverflow.net/search?q=sage
>
> Is any of the information at
>
https://wiki.sagemath.org/Infrastructure#ask.sagemath.org
>
still current?
>

Yes, it is current. One can also email

  sage-askbot-admin AT googlegroups.com

to report problems.

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