[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
We should translate the Sage UI into Lojban! That would probably solve our problems. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban (Sorry for the top post, but I'm not responding to any particular sentence written below...) On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 at 05:25PM -0700, kcrisman wrote: On Aug 29, 6:45 pm, Robert Dodier robert.dod...@gmail.com wrote: Minh Nguyen wrote: Usually an comes before a word that starts with a vowel, i.e a, e, i, o, u. So one would say an eight o'clock meeting or an 8 o'clock meeting. More examples: an amphibian, an egg, an igloo, an octopus, an umbrella. However, there are situations when this rule doesn't apply. In software engineering, one uses UML diagrams as part of the design process. Although this acronym starts with a capital u, it's pronounced and written as a UML diagram not an UML diagram, just as in a ewe not an ewe. In American English at least (I just don't know about other varieties) it is typical to change some vowels into diphthongs, in particular to change initial u into iu instead. In iu, i acts as a semivowel, and it's typical to use the article a in front of a word beginning with iu, e.g. a unicorn. But e.g. urn doesn't have the initial semivowel, so the article is an, so an urn. The other semivowel (there might be still others, but I can't think of them at the moment) is w as in one. As with semivocalic i, the article for semivocalic w is a, e.g. a one-time deal. Yes. And don't forget things like an historical novel versus a historical novel, depending on what part of the US you are from (no idea for other parts). But at any rate, a versus an is purely phonetic. At least in theory, there are also two pronunciations of the (thee and thuh), depending on the same input. Thee angel, thuh time. Well, whatever; definitely no good algorithm! Especially in the land of abbreviations and letters that mathematics is. Should we maybe use other articles for other alphabets, ό α or א ה or something? In all varieties of English, there is a pretty broad gulf between orthography and pronunciation. (I don't know if the orthography was fixed ages ago and pronunciation continued to evolved, or if they were never really aligned to begin with.) In a fantasy world, you would see that urn has a different initial letter than unicorn, but for now you just have to listen to the pronunciation to figure out the appropriate article. Orthography is horrible because so much of the vocabulary is from Anglo-Saxon or old French, but we barely pronounce anything like Icelandic. For a great example, see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=enough - a lot of initial gs became ys or disappeared, and I can only assume the final g was originally pronounced that way since it still is in German. Also, Isn't French another language whose pronunciation is only related to orthography by very complicated or non-algorithmic rules? Because it's still written like it was centures ago? I feel like I've heard that somewhere. So English isn't unique like that, though it's probably the only language you can really have a spelling bee in :) Anyway, interesting thread. I assume that there are no algorithms for Chomskian transformational grammars in Sage yet, but maybe someone should volunteer. - kcrisman --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- Dan -- --- Dan Drake drake at kaist dot edu - KAIST Department of Mathematical Sciences --- http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake signature.asc Description: Digital signature
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Orthography is horrible because so much of the vocabulary is from Anglo-Saxon or old French, but we barely pronounce anything like Icelandic. For a great example, see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=enough - a lot of initial gs became ys or disappeared, and I can only assume the final g was originally pronounced that way since it still is in German. You mean just that the 'g' is pronounced in German, not how it is pronounced? I ask because that 'g' in German actually has a hard sound, much like a 'k.' In fact, at the end of a word they make no distinction between the two, and Germans typically have a hard time distinguishing the two sounds, such as 'back' and 'bag.' Also, Isn't French another language whose pronunciation is only related to orthography by very complicated or non-algorithmic rules? Because it's still written like it was centures ago? I feel like I've heard that somewhere. So English isn't unique like that, though it's probably the only language you can really have a spelling bee in :) Well, the French tell me that there are very simple pronunciation rules for their language. And if you know them then yes, they at least almost always hold, if not always. I can't think of any exceptions at this time of night off of the top of my head, at least. I'm not a native, though. Yes, there are a lot of silent letters, but it's generally easy to go from spelling to sound. I can see how the reverse could be a challenge. French, like German, and I believe many other languages, has a governing body that is charged with keeping the language up to date. They have the authority to change the way things are spelled and done by fiat. Maybe even complex rules of grammar, etc. I'm not quite sure of that. Makes it easy to figure out how to say things when you see them written, once you know the rules. Erik --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
hi all, two comments: (1) Simon, let me offer the following pedantic comment which i advise you to ignore (!). Technically, i believe that writing a 2-cocycle is incorrect anyway, as it should be a two-cocycle. Likewise, the proof splits into 2 cases should be the proof splits into two cases, and so on. You're supposed to separate the math from the rest. (I'm pretty certain of this. If anyone has doubts, try to think of a paper which defines the natural numbers and the symbols 1, 2, 3... It's of course okay for this paper to have chapter one, chapter two etc). Of course this is just silly (as grammar (typography?) rules can sometimes be), as a 178-cocycle is a nightmare to write down, and i'm not even sure what to make of n-cocycles where n isn't defined yet. For the record though, i think what i've said is correct. At least i've recently finished an article for which the co-author made change all the 2-cocycles into two-cocycles, so i guess he was pretty serious about that. (2) about french, as a native speaker i can tell you that it is very straightforward to go from spelling to sound. You (almost...) never come accross a word which you don't know how to pronounce, even if you've never seen it before. And that includes proper nouns : people and places automatically have a french pronounciation! (from which a french speaker will have a hard time to deviate, maybe the reason why we're so bad at pronouncing foreign languages). The reverse is quite false, and we often ask how do you spell that ? when taught a new word, as if spelling had more importance than sound. That being said, the algorithm to go from spelling to sound is in fact rather tricky. I know that from trying to teach it to someone... say, in order to pronounce les habits, you have to know that: (i) the final s marks the plural, so it's ignored, (ii) rule (i) makes the t the final letter, and it's a consonant, so it's ignored (not even a strict rule, this) (iii) we ignore all the h's anyway (iv) since the h isn't really there, the s at the end of les must be connected to the a (this prevents rule (i) from applying for this word ) Results : lays-a-bee ! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
I think I wrote the ordinal_str function, for the output of certain messages related to roots of unity. Clearly I did not do a perfect job: it uses 'st' for 1 mod 10 except for 11, but I think that should be: 'st' for 1 mod 10 except 'th' for 11 mod 100. Similarly for 2 and 3 mod 10. I just saw that you have already made a patch for this, so I'll review it right now! John On Aug 29, 12:32 pm, Simon King simon.k...@nuigalway.ie wrote: Hi! This is a related subject: Isn't the following a bug: sage: n = 113 sage: n.ordinal_str() '113rd' sage: n = 112 sage: n.ordinal_str() '112nd' sage: n = 111 sage: n.ordinal_str() '111st' I opened the tickethttp://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/6842 [with patch, needs review] Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Pierrepierre.guil...@gmail.com wrote: SNIP Of course this is just silly (as grammar (typography?) rules can sometimes be), as a 178-cocycle is a nightmare to write down, and i'm not even sure what to make of n-cocycles where n isn't defined yet. For the record though, i think what i've said is correct. At least i've recently finished an article for which the co-author made change all the 2-cocycles into two-cocycles, so i guess he was pretty serious about that. When writing prose, some people (including me) consider it good form to spell out whole numbers from 0 to 10, inclusive. Hence I'm not at all surprised that the co-author mentioned above wrote two-cocycles instead of 2-cocycles. For a whole number greater than 10, I wouldn't bother with spelling it out. Writing 12-cocyle is OK, but twelve-cocyle looks horrible to some people who consider it as departing from good style. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Hi Simon, On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Simon Kingsimon.k...@nuigalway.ie wrote: SNIP Can someone tell me the rule in what cases one uses a and in what cases an? E.g., one has an if (and only if?) the next word starts with a,e,i. Usually an comes before a word that starts with a vowel, i.e a, e, i, o, u. So one would say an eight o'clock meeting or an 8 o'clock meeting. More examples: an amphibian, an egg, an igloo, an octopus, an umbrella. However, there are situations when this rule doesn't apply. In software engineering, one uses UML diagrams as part of the design process. Although this acronym starts with a capital u, it's pronounced and written as a UML diagram not an UML diagram, just as in a ewe not an ewe. And is there a function (or at least an easy algorithm that I can implement myself) that for a given integer n answers the question whether it is an %d-cochain%n or a %d-cochain%n ? Any number that is spelt with a vowel, e.g. an eight-cochain an eleven-cochain an eighteen-cochain and you can safely put a before a number whose spelling begins with a consonant. However, depends on where you are, people do say an hundred-cochain with a silent h, even though at least in Australia it's a hundred-cochain where the letter h is not silent in pronunciation. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Hi! This is a related subject: Isn't the following a bug: sage: n = 113 sage: n.ordinal_str() '113rd' sage: n = 112 sage: n.ordinal_str() '112nd' sage: n = 111 sage: n.ordinal_str() '111st' I opened the ticket http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/6842 [with patch, needs review] Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Can someone tell me the rule in what cases one uses a and in what cases an? E.g., one has an if (and only if?) the next word starts with a,e,i. The choice between a and an isn't so simple because it depends on the initial sound of the word rather than the initial letter. A quick search came up with http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/3431 which seems accurate enough. In a nutshell, 'an' is used if the word starts with a vowel sound. As a first approximation, it includes a,e,i,o,u but also words with an unstressed h. I hope that helps, Adam --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Minh Nguyennguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: SNIP And is there a function (or at least an easy algorithm that I can implement myself) that for a given integer n answers the question whether it is an %d-cochain%n or a %d-cochain%n ? Any number that is spelt with a vowel, e.g. an eight-cochain an eleven-cochain an eighteen-cochain and you can safely put a before a number whose spelling begins with a consonant. And we do this: a one not an one, even though one starts with a vowel. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Hi Minh, On Aug 29, 12:30 pm, Minh Nguyen nguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: [...] and you can safely put a before a number whose spelling begins with a consonant. However, depends on where you are, people do say an hundred-cochain with a silent h, even though at least in Australia it's a hundred-cochain where the letter h is not silent in pronunciation. Gosh, that's difficult! Concerning h: I was told that here in Ireland, the children in school learn to spell h like heitsh, not like eitsh. And wouldn't it officially be one hundred, not just hundred? So, is it then an 100-cochain? But this sounds odd to me, because my feeling is that a one hundred is easier to pronounce than an one hundred. But even if the rule were as simple as use 'an' if and only if the number starts with a vowel: Is there a function (or an easy algorithm) that answers whether a number starts with a vowel? John Palmieri suggested 8, 11, 18, 80-89, and I guess 1 also starts with a vowel (but really an one-cochain??). Anyway, thank you for your answers, although I am still kind of clueless... Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Hi Minh, On Aug 29, 12:32 pm, Minh Nguyen nguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Minh Nguyennguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: [...] And we do this: a one not an one, even though one starts with a vowel. Ah, that confirms my feeling towards an one-cochain. And I have a similar aversion against an Unix machine (without intention to offend Unix, but I would say a Unix machine). What do natives think? So, isn't it only about the vowels a,e,i, after all? Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Simon Kingsimon.k...@nuigalway.ie wrote: Hi Minh, On Aug 29, 12:32 pm, Minh Nguyen nguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Minh Nguyennguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: [...] And we do this: a one not an one, even though one starts with a vowel. Ah, that confirms my feeling towards an one-cochain. And I have a similar aversion against an Unix machine (without intention to offend Unix, but I would say a Unix machine). What do natives think? So, isn't it only about the vowels a,e,i, after all? I would say its very complicated. But in the case of non-negative numbers, which was your original question, I would say an x-cochain if the 1st digit of x starts with an 8 and a x-cochain otherwise. You might be able to re-phrase things so that the a/an issue does not arise (eg, if the cochain is unique then replace a/an by the). Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
And I have a similar aversion against an Unix machine (without intention to offend Unix, but I would say a Unix machine). What do natives think? So, isn't it only about the vowels a,e,i, after all? For words that start with u, if the initial sound is like a you, one uses a instead of an, e.g. a university, or a Unix machine, or a unicorn. If the initial sound is closer to an ah (damn it's hard to write this down), one uses an, e.g. an unusual circumstance versus a usual circumstance. I hope this makes sense. Also, disclaimer: IANANES (I am not a native English speaker :) -- Alex Ghitza -- Lecturer in Mathematics -- The University of Melbourne -- Australia -- http://www.ms.unimelb.edu.au/~aghitza/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Hi Simon, On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Simon Kingsimon.k...@nuigalway.ie wrote: SNIP Ah, that confirms my feeling towards an one-cochain. And I have a similar aversion against an Unix machine (without intention to offend Unix, but I would say a Unix machine). It's written a Unix machine which mirrors the way it is spoken, i.e. a you-nix machine. Same thing goes for one; one writes a one-man band because it's pronounced as a won-man band. Most of the time, the choice of a or an depends on the pronunciation which takes higher precedence over whether or not the first letter is a vowel or a consonant. What do natives think? So, isn't it only about the vowels a,e,i, after all? Pronunciation rules! :-) We say a you-logy and write a eulogy; the written form usually follows the spoken form. As for an algorithm you seek, here's a heuristic for using an: one- and two-digit numbers: 8, 11, 18, 80-89 numbers with = 3 digits: 8xxx...x where x is a digit As you know, a and an are used when we refer to an object or thing from a collection of objects/things or when we're not being specific about the object/thing; e.g. an apple from a barrel. For all you care, there might be only one apple in the barrel. If the object/thing is unique, then we use the. This immediately does away with the usage problems caused by a and an, for then we are being specific about what we're talking about. Using the also conveys the extra information that there is only one such object; it's unique. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 8:11 AM, wol...@gmail.com wrote: ... For numbers, it could be problematic for those starting with 1: a 1, an 11 (an eleven), a 111 (a one hundred ... ), a (a one thousand ...), an 1 (an eleven thousand ...). You're right, I hadn't thought of that case. There is also an 18-cochain, a 180-cochain, an 18000-cochain, Hope this is correct. Best wishes, Wolfgang Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
MaxTheMouse wrote: Can someone tell me the rule in what cases one uses a and in what cases an? E.g., one has an if (and only if?) the next word starts with a,e,i. The choice between a and an isn't so simple because it depends on the initial sound of the word rather than the initial letter. A quick search came up with http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/3431 which seems accurate enough. In a nutshell, 'an' is used if the word starts with a vowel sound. As a first approximation, it includes a,e,i,o,u but also words with an unstressed h. Another famous example: an $m \times n$ matrix $A$ Jaap I hope that helps, Adam --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Usually an comes before a word that starts with a vowel, i.e a, e, i, o, u. So one would say an eight o'clock meeting or an 8 o'clock meeting. More examples: an amphibian, an egg, an igloo, an octopus, an umbrella. However, there are situations when this rule doesn't apply. In software engineering, one uses UML diagrams as part of the design process. Although this acronym starts with a capital u, it's pronounced and written as a UML diagram not an UML diagram, just as in a ewe not an ewe. Then you must pronounce that word differently than I do, because for me it's an ewe. I don't pronounce it like you, it's more like eeew, as in eeew, disgusting. I don't remember how to write proper phonetics - linguistics class was too long ago, or I would do that. But at least in my dialect 'ewe' doesn't start with a consonant sound. But by and large I agree with you, just this one word that I pronounce differently. And it's *all* about pronunciation with a/an as well as the two different pronunciations of 'the,' although they don't matter to this discussion since they're written the same. It's all to make it easier to say and to sound better. Erik --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Aug 29, 6:30 am, Minh Nguyen nguyenmi...@gmail.com wrote: ... and you can safely put a before a number whose spelling begins with a consonant. However, depends on where you are, people do say an hundred-cochain with a silent h, even though at least in Australia it's a hundred-cochain where the letter h is not silent in pronunciation. Forgive the link to Wikipedia, but the following seems like a decent explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_and_an#Discrimination_between_a_and_an regards john perry --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Jaap Spiesj.sp...@hccnet.nl wrote: SNIP Another famous example: an $m \times n$ matrix $A$ A similar example: an $n \times m$ matrix. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Hi Simon, On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Simon Kingsimon.k...@nuigalway.ie wrote: SNIP Perhaps this is a way out: c_2_2*b_1_0^6+c_2_2^3*b_1_0^2: 8-Cochain in H^*(D8; GF(2)) That seems OK to me. The message is concise and packs more information into a short line than if you had written it as a full sentence. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Minh Nguyen wrote: Usually an comes before a word that starts with a vowel, i.e a, e, i, o, u. So one would say an eight o'clock meeting or an 8 o'clock meeting. More examples: an amphibian, an egg, an igloo, an octopus, an umbrella. However, there are situations when this rule doesn't apply. In software engineering, one uses UML diagrams as part of the design process. Although this acronym starts with a capital u, it's pronounced and written as a UML diagram not an UML diagram, just as in a ewe not an ewe. In American English at least (I just don't know about other varieties) it is typical to change some vowels into diphthongs, in particular to change initial u into iu instead. In iu, i acts as a semivowel, and it's typical to use the article a in front of a word beginning with iu, e.g. a unicorn. But e.g. urn doesn't have the initial semivowel, so the article is an, so an urn. The other semivowel (there might be still others, but I can't think of them at the moment) is w as in one. As with semivocalic i, the article for semivocalic w is a, e.g. a one-time deal. In all varieties of English, there is a pretty broad gulf between orthography and pronunciation. (I don't know if the orthography was fixed ages ago and pronunciation continued to evolved, or if they were never really aligned to begin with.) In a fantasy world, you would see that urn has a different initial letter than unicorn, but for now you just have to listen to the pronunciation to figure out the appropriate article. Sorry for garbling up all of linguistics here. I'm sure there are others who can do a better job. Robert Dodier --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
Minh Nguyen wrote: On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Jaap Spiesj.sp...@hccnet.nl wrote: SNIP Another famous example: an $m \times n$ matrix $A$ A similar example: an $n \times m$ matrix. Or an $n \times n$ matrix :-) Jaap --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Jaap Spiesj.sp...@hccnet.nl wrote: SNIP Or an $n \times n$ matrix :-) These are also interesting :-) an F-distribution an R-module an S-expression an X-ray -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Aug 29, 6:45 pm, Robert Dodier robert.dod...@gmail.com wrote: Minh Nguyen wrote: Usually an comes before a word that starts with a vowel, i.e a, e, i, o, u. So one would say an eight o'clock meeting or an 8 o'clock meeting. More examples: an amphibian, an egg, an igloo, an octopus, an umbrella. However, there are situations when this rule doesn't apply. In software engineering, one uses UML diagrams as part of the design process. Although this acronym starts with a capital u, it's pronounced and written as a UML diagram not an UML diagram, just as in a ewe not an ewe. In American English at least (I just don't know about other varieties) it is typical to change some vowels into diphthongs, in particular to change initial u into iu instead. In iu, i acts as a semivowel, and it's typical to use the article a in front of a word beginning with iu, e.g. a unicorn. But e.g. urn doesn't have the initial semivowel, so the article is an, so an urn. The other semivowel (there might be still others, but I can't think of them at the moment) is w as in one. As with semivocalic i, the article for semivocalic w is a, e.g. a one-time deal. Yes. And don't forget things like an historical novel versus a historical novel, depending on what part of the US you are from (no idea for other parts). But at any rate, a versus an is purely phonetic. At least in theory, there are also two pronunciations of the (thee and thuh), depending on the same input. Thee angel, thuh time. Well, whatever; definitely no good algorithm! Especially in the land of abbreviations and letters that mathematics is. Should we maybe use other articles for other alphabets, ό α or א ה or something? In all varieties of English, there is a pretty broad gulf between orthography and pronunciation. (I don't know if the orthography was fixed ages ago and pronunciation continued to evolved, or if they were never really aligned to begin with.) In a fantasy world, you would see that urn has a different initial letter than unicorn, but for now you just have to listen to the pronunciation to figure out the appropriate article. Orthography is horrible because so much of the vocabulary is from Anglo-Saxon or old French, but we barely pronounce anything like Icelandic. For a great example, see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=enough - a lot of initial gs became ys or disappeared, and I can only assume the final g was originally pronounced that way since it still is in German. Also, Isn't French another language whose pronunciation is only related to orthography by very complicated or non-algorithmic rules? Because it's still written like it was centures ago? I feel like I've heard that somewhere. So English isn't unique like that, though it's probably the only language you can really have a spelling bee in :) Anyway, interesting thread. I assume that there are no algorithms for Chomskian transformational grammars in Sage yet, but maybe someone should volunteer. - kcrisman --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-support] Re: English grammar of numbers
On Aug 29, 2009, at 5:25 PM, kcrisman wrote: On Aug 29, 6:45 pm, Robert Dodier robert.dod...@gmail.com wrote: Minh Nguyen wrote: Usually an comes before a word that starts with a vowel, i.e a, e, i, o, u. So one would say an eight o'clock meeting or an 8 o'clock meeting. More examples: an amphibian, an egg, an igloo, an octopus, an umbrella. However, there are situations when this rule doesn't apply. In software engineering, one uses UML diagrams as part of the design process. Although this acronym starts with a capital u, it's pronounced and written as a UML diagram not an UML diagram, just as in a ewe not an ewe. In American English at least (I just don't know about other varieties) it is typical to change some vowels into diphthongs, in particular to change initial u into iu instead. In iu, i acts as a semivowel, and it's typical to use the article a in front of a word beginning with iu, e.g. a unicorn. But e.g. urn doesn't have the initial semivowel, so the article is an, so an urn. The other semivowel (there might be still others, but I can't think of them at the moment) is w as in one. As with semivocalic i, the article for semivocalic w is a, e.g. a one-time deal. Yes. And don't forget things like an historical novel versus a historical novel, depending on what part of the US you are from (no idea for other parts). But at any rate, a versus an is purely phonetic. At least in theory, there are also two pronunciations of the (thee and thuh), depending on the same input. Thee angel, thuh time. Well, whatever; definitely no good algorithm! Especially in the land of abbreviations and letters that mathematics is. Should we maybe use other articles for other alphabets, ό α or א ה or something? The generic problem is hard (and in practice typically solved via heuristics + an exception lookup table), but for numbers, an integer - English words algorithm is very easy to write, and there are very few words that can come up first, so this particular case isn't too difficult. In all varieties of English, there is a pretty broad gulf between orthography and pronunciation. (I don't know if the orthography was fixed ages ago and pronunciation continued to evolved, or if they were never really aligned to begin with.) In a fantasy world, you would see that urn has a different initial letter than unicorn, but for now you just have to listen to the pronunciation to figure out the appropriate article. Orthography is horrible because so much of the vocabulary is from Anglo-Saxon or old French, but we barely pronounce anything like Icelandic. For a great example, see http://www.etymonline.com/ index.php?term=enough - a lot of initial gs became ys or disappeared, and I can only assume the final g was originally pronounced that way since it still is in German. Even worse, most of our words come from latin/old French, but most of our common words and grammar come from the Celts and the Goths. (Interestingly, this was originally a class distinction between the nobles and the peasants, which is why we have beef (for those who ate them)/cows (for those who raised them), etc.) Language evolution can create strange (but usually algorithmic) rules, but this hybrid history is what causes so many irregularities. English historically has been more accepting of importing foreign words as well, which doesn't help things. Also, Isn't French another language whose pronunciation is only related to orthography by very complicated or non-algorithmic rules? Because it's still written like it was centures ago? I feel like I've heard that somewhere. French has rather complicated rules, in which many letters become silent much of the time, but it tends to be very regular at least. So English isn't unique like that, though it's probably the only language you can really have a spelling bee in :) In France the equivalent of a spelling bee is a dictation in which the challenger reads a paragraph or two (typically from a famous work) and you copy it down. The challenge is filling in all these silent letters, especially as many of them can only be deduced in context and by agreement with other parts of the text. (For example, as in English, the generic way to make things plural in French is to add an 's' to the end, but this 's' is usually silent, so the only way you'd know it's there is by context.) Anyway, interesting thread. I assume that there are no algorithms for Chomskian transformational grammars in Sage yet, but maybe someone should volunteer. Some day I'm sure it'll happen. The transformations themselves are usually pretty simple, it's coming up with a minimal set of transformations that describe a huge set of phenomena that's the challenge. - Robert --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-support@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group,
