[sane-devel] What about creating music with scanning devices?
Hi, On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 11:52:33PM +0200, Martin Langer wrote: > Then it would be depend on a specific scanner and a general solution would > be much nicer. It does depend on the scanner. There is nothing we can do about that. > Ok, I will look to the backend part of my umax, but such things > should be IMHO part of a middleware level. Motor movement is absulute low low level for me :-) > There is no middleware level in the sane architecture - Is that > right? There are no real "levels" for SANE at all. Basically the backends do all the hardware stuff and encapsulate the scanner properties in options. These are the drivers. The frontends "just" present the options to the user and handle the scan data. You could talk about meta backends as "middle level". They are both frontends and backends. Examples are the dll meta-backen which loads other backends dynamically or the net/saned combination which allows scanning over the net. You could do other stuff like image filters throught meta backends. But it doesn't make sense to use them for hardware-dependent stuff. > Yes. There are 1000 ideas to generate some notes, but there are not 1000 > developers to do it and the companies want to sell more hardware instead of > using existing hardware for strange things. But linux offers this general > concepts of ALSA+SANE for a wide range of scanners and soundcards. And I > like the idea to use it for more than normal things :-) Once you get ALSA to scan images we'll talk about implementing music in SANE. Don't say it's impossible, you could add a CCD element to the mic input and motors to the left and right speaker outputs ... :-) Bye, Henning
[sane-devel] What about creating music with scanning devices?
Hi, On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 10:14:07PM +0200, Martin Langer wrote: > The basic idea is to use a scanner as music instrument and translate a scan > line into music notes (x-scale for differnt notes and intensity for the > volume). Therefore it would be nice to have a constant y value (I don't see an > interesting use for y!). So it would be great to read out that one y-line > and produce MIDI notes until Ctrl-C is pressed. > > I'm more involved into the ALSA side of this problem and absolutely new to > sane development. So my question: > > Is it possible to solve this (read out one line without y movement) in a > frontend application? Or do I have to patch the backend part? Backend. Theoretically, a backend could define a SANE option to stop the movement but I don't know any backend that does that. You must chose a scanner that does the motor movement in the driver. A lot of scanners do the low level stuff in the firmware of the scanner so you can't influence the motor movement at all. The scanners that are based on the gt68xx chips are able to scan without motor movement. You must modify the gt68xx backend to do that. See http://www.meier-geinitz.de/sane/gt68xx-backend/ for scanners supported by that backend. I'm sure there are other scanners that can also do that. > Is there any developer information available? Depends on what you want. For some scanners there is hardware documentation. Docs about SANE are in the doc/ directory of sane-backends source code, especially the SANE standard. > I've just had a look to > some command line frontends, but they don't touch this point (ok, > it's possible that I'm blind!). But my impression was: they only > handle complete scans, which I don't want to use. Or is there a > general problem in the control of scanning devices, if I have this > goal . because they were not build for this use. For normal scan operation, it just doesn't make sense so the backends don't provide this option. It's not related to the frontend. All frontends (theoretically) provide the same set of options, because the options are provided by the backend. > Is there a counterpart to "sane_get_parameters()" for setting those > parameters, like lines and pixels? Yes, by setting options. > Anybody out there, who can give me some hints or who can say: "Forget It!" It's possible, but you must do some hacking on the code. Bye, Henning
[sane-devel] What about creating music with scanning devices?
Hi Martin Just an idea: Scanners are quite slow, and would provide little interactivity. Wouldn't it be more usefull to use a web-cam (or better) for this? Maybe a cheap webcam might not provide enough resolution (320 pix horizontally or so) but a medium quality camera can give 640, op to 1600 or more pixels/line - at 6 octaves, that's 100 pixels/octave or more! If you want the 'touch effect' of the glass, use a glass pane, with backlighting and the camera on the other side. This way you can have up to 50 (60) images/second and a much faster reaction speed for your musical instrument. Just a thought... John On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:14:07 +0200 Martin Langer wrote: > > Hi, > > I've just had an idea about a crazy scanner frontend: > > The basic idea is to use a scanner as music instrument and translate a > scan line into music notes (x-scale for differnt notes and intensity for > the volume). Therefore it would be nice to have a constant y value (I > don't see an interesting use for y!). So it would be great to read out > that one y-line and produce MIDI notes until Ctrl-C is pressed. > > I'm more involved into the ALSA side of this problem and absolutely new > to sane development. So my question: > > Is it possible to solve this (read out one line without y movement) in a > > frontend application? Or do I have to patch the backend part? Is there > any developer information available? I've just had a look to some > command line frontends, but they don't touch this point (ok, it's > possible that I'm blind!). But my impression was: they only handle > complete scans, which I don't want to use. Or is there a general problem > in the control of scanning devices, if I have this goal . because > they were not build for this use. > > Is there a counterpart to "sane_get_parameters()" for setting those > parameters, like lines and pixels? > > Anybody out there, who can give me some hints or who can say: "Forget > It!" > > > thanks, > martin > > > > ___ > Sane-devel mailing list > sane-de...@www.mostang.com > http://www.mostang.com/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
[sane-devel] What about creating music with scanning devices?
On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 09:56:53PM +0100, Major A wrote: > > The basic idea is to use a scanner as music instrument and translate a scan > > line into music notes (x-scale for differnt notes and intensity for the > > volume). Therefore it would be nice to have a constant y value (I don't see > > an > > interesting use for y!). So it would be great to read out that one y-line > > and produce MIDI notes until Ctrl-C is pressed. > > Just to make sure I'm getting the right ideas: you want a scanner to > scan a single line over and over quickly so that you can synthesize > music by moving objects above the scanner's glass surface? Sounds very > interesting indeed! > I'm not really sure, about my final goals. On one hand I can have a three dimensional keyboard (RGB) and on the other hand I don't know how to use it. But we will see. My first idea was playing an invisible keyboard with my finger tips on the scanner surface, but there are more possibilities, that's right and I don't see them all. > > Is it possible to solve this (read out one line without y movement) in a > > frontend application? Or do I have to patch the backend part? Is there any > > It has little to do with the frontend. Scanners are designed to scan > whole 2D documents, so making just a frontend will not be > enough. You'll probably have to find a scanner that can do this in > hardware (not easy, I suppose), then probably modify its backend. Then it would be depend on a specific scanner and a general solution would be much nicer. Ok, I will look to the backend part of my umax, but such things should be IMHO part of a middleware level. There is no middleware level in the sane architecture - Is that right? > Given that (most?) scanners weren't designed for real-time scanning, > I'd suggest you look at video cameras instead. It should be fairly > easy to do what you want by using a digital video camera, dissect the > DV stream so as to take one line only, then use that to generate your > music. Yes. There are 1000 ideas to generate some notes, but there are not 1000 developers to do it and the companies want to sell more hardware instead of using existing hardware for strange things. But linux offers this general concepts of ALSA+SANE for a wide range of scanners and soundcards. And I like the idea to use it for more than normal things :-) but up to now it's not much more than an idea! martin
[sane-devel] What about creating music with scanning devices?
Hi, I've just had an idea about a crazy scanner frontend: The basic idea is to use a scanner as music instrument and translate a scan line into music notes (x-scale for differnt notes and intensity for the volume). Therefore it would be nice to have a constant y value (I don't see an interesting use for y!). So it would be great to read out that one y-line and produce MIDI notes until Ctrl-C is pressed. I'm more involved into the ALSA side of this problem and absolutely new to sane development. So my question: Is it possible to solve this (read out one line without y movement) in a frontend application? Or do I have to patch the backend part? Is there any developer information available? I've just had a look to some command line frontends, but they don't touch this point (ok, it's possible that I'm blind!). But my impression was: they only handle complete scans, which I don't want to use. Or is there a general problem in the control of scanning devices, if I have this goal . because they were not build for this use. Is there a counterpart to "sane_get_parameters()" for setting those parameters, like lines and pixels? Anybody out there, who can give me some hints or who can say: "Forget It!" thanks, martin
[sane-devel] What about creating music with scanning devices?
> The basic idea is to use a scanner as music instrument and translate a scan > line into music notes (x-scale for differnt notes and intensity for the > volume). Therefore it would be nice to have a constant y value (I don't see an > interesting use for y!). So it would be great to read out that one y-line > and produce MIDI notes until Ctrl-C is pressed. Just to make sure I'm getting the right ideas: you want a scanner to scan a single line over and over quickly so that you can synthesize music by moving objects above the scanner's glass surface? Sounds very interesting indeed! > Is it possible to solve this (read out one line without y movement) in a > frontend application? Or do I have to patch the backend part? Is there any It has little to do with the frontend. Scanners are designed to scan whole 2D documents, so making just a frontend will not be enough. You'll probably have to find a scanner that can do this in hardware (not easy, I suppose), then probably modify its backend. > Is there a counterpart to "sane_get_parameters()" for setting those > parameters, like lines and pixels? The name of sane_get_parameters() can be misleading. It is supposed to return secondary values, i.e. values calculated from the scan options, such as the total number of bytes. Options are set using sane_control_option(), that's what you're looking for, I suppose. > Anybody out there, who can give me some hints or who can say: "Forget It!" Given that (most?) scanners weren't designed for real-time scanning, I'd suggest you look at video cameras instead. It should be fairly easy to do what you want by using a digital video camera, dissect the DV stream so as to take one line only, then use that to generate your music. Andras === Major Andras e-mail: and...@users.sourceforge.net www:http://andras.webhop.org/ ===
