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You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of sanskrit digest..." Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (Shreyas P. Munshi) 2. pronunciation of the vowel R^i (Jay Vaidya) 3. vahnimanDala ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 4. research abroad (Desiraju Hanumanta Rao) 5. vahni manDala etc (Desiraju Hanumanta Rao) 6. Re: pronunciation of the vowel R^i (Ramesh Krishnamurthy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: 17 Oct 2006 17:46:34 -0000 From: "Shreyas P. Munshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Sanskrit] (no subject) To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ? Speaking about Panini's phonetics, there is a question to examine: What is the correct pronunciation of the word Sanskrt....Sanskr'i't (as pronounced in UP etc) or Sanskr'u't (as pronounced in Maharashtra and Gujarat?....I submit that /mru.....mriyate/ seems to suggest that there are separate sounds and hence the different graphic symbols for /mru/ and /mri/ in the orthodox Devnagari script...because there are separate pronunciations for the vowels /hru/ and /i/...(and perhaps the difference in pronunciation is meant to be phonemic!); that is, the two sounds could have been used to convey distinctive meanings. I notice that even Hrigveda is written as Rigveda.../hri/ is a vowel, while /r/ is a consonant..In Devnagari the word is written as the one corresponding to Hrigveda...a vowel, and not a consonant, in the 'word initial' position. ....Shreyas Munshi ____________________________ Shreyas Munshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/private/sanskrit/attachments/20061017/1eb4d2ae/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Sanskrit] pronunciation of the vowel R^i To: "Shreyas P. Munshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Note: "R^i" is just the ITRANS internet standard for the special symbol in Indian script. It does not mean that the pronunciation is "ri". In the Harvard-Kyoto standard, the same symbol is written as "R" - but I am not used to writing in the Harvard-Kyoto scheme. Message: None of the current pronunciations of the vowel R^i in modern Indian languages correspond to the pronunciation in sa.nskR^ita. The pronunciations are all correct WHILE SPEAKING IN THE MODERN LANGUAGES, because each of these languages (Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Kannada, Telugu, etc) have their own independent rich grammar and literature and sound standardization. In Western UP Hindi -> ra In "standard" Hindi -> ri In Marathi, Gujarati -> ru In Tamil, Malayalam -> ri Clearly, in all of these modern languages, these are two joined sounds, not one: (1) the consonant (vya.njana) "r" + a vowel "a"/"i"/"u" The sound R^i is a vowel. Vowels can be sounded continuously for a long time without changing their sound-character. e.g. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ooooooooooooooooooo similarly it is possible to say RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL The toungue-placement (sthaana) for R^i is the muurdhan (the highest part of the hard palate, the same part where the tongue is placed for T, Th, D, Dh, N. Also for the second "shh", but only a certain literate speaking tradition in Marathi make a distinctly different tongue placement for "sh" and "shh". I don't know about Gujarati. Most modern Indians do not pronounce "shh" as it was pronounced in sa.nskR^ita. This is quite OK while speaking their own modern language.) The mouth effort ("prayatna") for R^i is "vivR^ita" on the inside, and "vivaara" on the outside. This means that the inner part of the throat is open, and there is a continuous flow of air from the throat through the mouth out of the lips. So when the tip of the tongue touches the muurdhan, it should not block the flow of air at any time. If it blocks the flow of air, this turns into the consonant (vya.njana) "r". Of course, "ra", "ri", "ru" all break the continuous flow of air from the throat to the mouth as the tongue touches the palate to make the "r" sound, and then they all change from muurdhan to kaNTha (for "ra"), or taalu (for "ri"), or oshhTha (for "ru"). Which are all wrong while speaking in sa.nskR^ita. (But correct in those modern languages.) Similarly for the vowel L^i, the tongue placement for which is near the teeth ("danta"), and the flow of air is unbroken. R^i as a true vowel is used in modern mandarin chinese L^i as a true vowel is used in modern standard English (but not most Indian accented English) For example the the word "simple" This is correctly pronounced: 'sim-pl (the final "l" being a vowel) Sometimes in Indian accented English, we say 'sim-pal or 'sim-pel, in which case "l" is a consonant. Shreyas-ji you should take your mri-yate argument further to see that that none of "ra", "ri" or "ru" are the same as R^i - all have separate symbols 1. (mother-worship) maatR^i + archanaa = maatrarchanaa = maat"ra"rchanaa -> "ra" not equal to "R^i" 2. (mather's wish) maatR^i + ichchhaa = maatrichchhaa = maat"ri"chchhaa -> "ri" not equal to "R^i" 3. (mother's service) maatR^i + upaasanaa = maatrupaasanaa -> "ru" not equal to "R^i" However, do be careful. It is not a good idea to base your phonetics/pronunciation on script writing. There are 18 varieties of "i" in sa.nskR^ita, (similar number in maraThi) but mostly for convenience we use only two symbols "i" and "ii", which are taught to us at school. This is perfectly fine, because most readers who know the language choose the correct variety of the the vowel based on the context. Regards, Dhananjay --- "Shreyas P. Munshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What is the correct pronunciation of the word > Sanskrt....Sanskrit (as pronounced in UP etc)or > Sanskrut (as pronounced in Maharashtra and > Gujarat?....I submit that /mru.....mriyate/ seems to > suggest that there are separate symbols for /mru/ > and /mri/..that is for the vowels /hru/ and > /i/....Shreyas Munshi ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:25:31 -0500 From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Sanskrit] vahnimanDala To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jai Ramji Ki! Dear Friends: During the Durga puja, I came across three mantras that intrigue me. OM suuryamanDalaaya dvaadashakalaatmane namaH OM somamanDalaaya shoDashakalaatmane namaH OM vahnimanDalaaya dashakalaatmane namaH I think I know who the first two mantras refer to (Sri Rama and Sri Krishna). Sri Rama is often described as the dvaadashakalaa purushha and Sri Krishna is often said to be the shoDashakalaa purushha. However, I am uncertain about the vahnimanDala and the dashakalaa purushha. My guess is vahnimanDala is about yajna, and Sri Vishhnu is the intended Deity here, because He is often called the adhiyajna. But is He a dashakalaa purushha? I am hoping that you'd know the answer to this. Regards, Dhruba. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Sanskrit] research abroad To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Prospective researchers may join this web forum in yahoo groups - mahabharata_study and verify messages for some info about vistas in UK etc School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS, University of London); also Universities of Roehampton (Surrey); Cardiff; Oxford; Cambridge; and probably others. - as informed by Simon B --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/private/sanskrit/attachments/20061017/ab5a6530/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:33:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Sanskrit] vahni manDala etc To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> But is He, raama, a dashakalaa purushha? If raama is having only dasha kala-s, or any one digit lesser to 16, he will not become a puurNa avataara. These three maNDala-s and kaLa-s are the components of Shri Chakra - chintamaNi dwiipa of lalita tripuira sundari, and they occur in lalita 1000 naamaa-s and other texts of her puuja. Don't confound them with the attributes of raama and kRishna, as these two are deemed as puurNa avatara-s having all the 16 kala-s. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/private/sanskrit/attachments/20061017/e3285aa8/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:34:29 +0530 From: "Ramesh Krishnamurthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] pronunciation of the vowel R^i To: "Jay Vaidya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Very interesting.. Can you also guide us on the exact pronunciation of the anusvara when the succeeding letter is ya, ra, la, va, Sa, Sha, sa, ha? dhanyavAdaH Ramesh - Hide quoted text - On 18/10/06, Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The mouth effort ("prayatna") for R^i is "vivR^ita" on > the inside, and "vivaara" on the outside. This means > that the inner part of the throat is open, and there > is a continuous flow of air from the throat through > the mouth out of the lips. So when the tip of the > tongue touches the muurdhan, it should not block the > flow of air at any time. If it blocks the flow of air, > this turns into the consonant (vya.njana) "r". > > Of course, "ra", "ri", "ru" all break the continuous > flow of air from the throat to the mouth as the tongue > touches the palate to make the "r" sound, and then > they all change from muurdhan to kaNTha (for "ra"), or > taalu (for "ri"), or oshhTha (for "ru"). Which are all > wrong while speaking in sa.nskR^ita. (But correct in > those modern languages.) > > Similarly for the vowel L^i, the tongue placement for > which is near the teeth ("danta"), and the flow of air > is unbroken. > > R^i as a true vowel is used in modern mandarin chinese > L^i as a true vowel is used in modern standard English > (but not most Indian accented English) > For example the the word "simple" > This is correctly pronounced: > 'sim-pl (the final "l" being a vowel) > Sometimes in Indian accented English, we say 'sim-pal > or 'sim-pel, in which case "l" is a consonant. > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ sanskrit mailing list sanskrit@cs.utah.edu http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 7 ***************************************