[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: What is left is to rephrase the requirements of Savannah so that it reflects this decision. We don't need to describe all these issues; we should only extend this if it will save us time. What it must say, in some words or other, is say that we reserve the right to decline to host a package for reasons not stated here. Does it say that already? It's said that the project will be evaluated and not automatically accepted. So it implicitely said that. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
My p2p example was not well picked. But we have discussed this issue for long enough now so it is time to take a decision. As the majority (everyone except me :)) thinks we should reject this project, we will reject this project. I agree with Richard when he says: We must not say that we refuse to judge the job that software does. What is left is to rephrase the requirements of Savannah so that it reflects this decision. -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
If we refuse this project for anti social reasons, then we should update the requirements on the Savannah pages. Maybe we should do so in a very general way. But don't we already say that approval of a project is at our discretion, that we can say no for any reason? And what about the P2P clients we are hosting? They are in the first place used to share non-free software and to share music. We don't think that is antisocial. ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Meanwhile, another relevant point is that it is useful only for running non-free software. How did you conclude that? I can't find anything mentioning non-free software in the discription. If the game is free, you don't need this program. You only need it for running a non-free game. Ordinary reverse engineering tools are used to explore the function of a non-free program; but not in order to run the non-free program. This one is different. It is not meant to help you write another game that might be free. It is specifically for running the non-free game. ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
With those p2p clients you can share non-free software. You can share all sorts of things with them; they are not specifically for non-free software. ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If we refuse this project for anti social reasons, then we should update the requirements on the Savannah pages. Maybe we should do so in a very general way. But don't we already say that approval of a project is at our discretion, that we can say no for any reason? We never said the contrary. So it is. I think that we can reject this project without writing a law in the marble for now: this request is very unusual. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
What is left is to rephrase the requirements of Savannah so that it reflects this decision. We don't need to describe all these issues; we should only extend this if it will save us time. What it must say, in some words or other, is say that we reserve the right to decline to host a package for reasons not stated here. Does it say that already? ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:32:02PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: Meanwhile, another relevant point is that it is useful only for running non-free software. How did you conclude that? I can't find anything mentioning non-free software in the discription. -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:31:58PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: I cannot accept that view. We must not say that we refuse to judge the job that software does. If the purpose or the main use of a program is antisocial, we will not support its development. I think we are walking on a very thin line here. But maybe it is the time to set everything straight as Savannah is getting bigger and bigger. We will surely reoccur such problems in the future. If we refuse this project for anti social reasons, then we should update the requirements on the Savannah pages. Current requirements (please add if I forgot some) - must be free software - must use a gpl compatible license - must run on a free OS - must only make use of gpl compatible software And what about the P2P clients we are hosting? They are in the first place used to share non-free software and to share music. That is antisocial to the free software community too if you consider the antisocial requirement. If you start using the anti social requirement, the maintainers of the P2P clients we not be very happy because the have used our services extensively. What do you think? -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Rudy Gevaert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 12:12:11PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote: Rudy Gevaert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: To me, your analogy isn't correct. Being able to isn't the same as having the freedom to. Hum, in fact my sentence was not clear. The following is more redundant but more accurate: Having the freedom to rape any women in the street could be seen as a freedom (indeed!) Or Being legally able to rape any women in the street could be seen as a freedom But this person isn't cheating in the first place. Also if a player wants to cheat, it is his problem. I agree it can be very inconvinient for other players. On the other hand it is not up to us to say: you can't cheat in games. It up to us to say: we will not help you to cheat in games against real human players. When someone harm other persons, it's surely up to him. But I do not want to provide the tool specifically dedicated to harm each other. Hmm. Cheating in games doensn't harm anybody. It does. It destroy the fairplay spirit and that is a harm. Not a major harm, sure, but it does not contribute to make our world something we enjoy living in. I think that in a game community that respect itselves the members don't cheat on each other and the cheating members are refused to participate. Unless cheating members find out software like the one proposed, probably not really detectable by others players. The program can also be used to fix holes in Free game software. No, it cannot. Read the description of the program. It does not say anything about it, that is true. But it doesn't say it can't be used for that. So for me it can be used for it with or without modification to the code. When the author explicitely give a purpose for his software, and this purpose is unfair, we, sure, can maybe find another purpose. But there isno evidence that at some point the author will try to make his software useful for this other purpose. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Rudy Gevaert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:31:58PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: I cannot accept that view. We must not say that we refuse to judge the job that software does. If the purpose or the main use of a program is antisocial, we will not support its development. I think we are walking on a very thin line here. But maybe it is the time to set everything straight as Savannah is getting bigger and bigger. We will surely reoccur such problems in the future. If we refuse this project for anti social reasons, then we should update the requirements on the Savannah pages. Current requirements (please add if I forgot some) - must be free software - must use a gpl compatible license - must run on a free OS - must only make use of gpl compatible software And what about the P2P clients we are hosting? They are in the first place used to share non-free software and to share music. That is antisocial to the free software community too if you consider the antisocial requirement. Why? Nobody told me when I duplicated an old tape for friend that I was an antisocial. A contrario, sharing seems a very social attitude to me. While cheating is clearly a dishonnest social attitude, say antisocial. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 12:10:16PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote: That is antisocial to the free software community too if you consider the antisocial requirement. Why? With those p2p clients you can share non-free software. -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Rudy Gevaert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 12:10:16PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote: That is antisocial to the free software community too if you consider the antisocial requirement. Why? With those p2p clients you can share non-free software. These p2p clients permits to share. They are not designed to specifically share non-free software. And even if it was the case, what would be antisocial to me is the fact that sharing proprietary software is illegal. Sharing proprietary software in itself is currently illegal but I do not consider it is antisocial. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rudy Gevaert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And what about the P2P clients we are hosting? They are in the first place used to share non-free software and to share music. They are probably USED for that, but the software is DESIGNED to be an effective method to distribute software which does not have any moral or immoral attributes. I don't see any problem in hosting P2P clients. Analogies: A knife was DESIGNED to cut, but when a person USES it to kill a human, it is the USE not the DESIGN what can be judged. The FTP protocol was DESIGNED to transfer data, it is up to the USER to decide if the data transferred is legal or illegal. Note that I am capitalizing the key concepts: DESIGN and USE. Stretching a little the analogies: A war bomb is designed to harm people, explosives are designed to blow up things. So, hosting bombs would be a problem for Savannah, but hosting explosives not. You can use explosives to build a tunnel to join communities, while you cannot use a war bomb to anything else than harming people. (note: if you modify the bomb to help you build a tunnel, it loses its war attribute and it becomes an explosive). Rudy, check one of your previous responses, in which you basically agreed to the same reasoning. - -- Hugo Gayosso -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/dlt8MNObVRBZveYRAtAzAJ0c+R36XkK/MMB1YY3C3snwddH9KgCgj5H7 wW4RZB6kEN36e/U6XSqMLs8= =8Y+K -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 07:21:09PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: If the only result of using the 'tool' is to cause harm or unfairness then we should think about it, but if the 'tool' provides other kind of results then I guess it would be the same as with network sniffing tools, etc. I agree with that principle. I do not. In my opinion we should only look if the project it is Free Software or not. If it is Free Software then we should offer to host it. If the project ever wants to be part of the GNU project and it causes harm or unfairness then it shouldn't be part of the GNU project. Of course I agree that it isn't fair if somebody cheats in a game but it shouldn't be up to Savannah to say what is fair or what is not. Everybody should be free to cheat or not. -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:31:29AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote: To me, freedom to disregard fairness and common rules is an harm. Being able to rape any women in the street could be seen as a freedom: in this case, this freedom should not be given because it creates more harm than anything else. (I often use this example to show that every freedom should not be given) To me, your analogy isn't correct. Being able to isn't the same as having the freedom to. Any Free Software program can be used to be unfair or to do harm. But that doesn't say it is being used that way. I think that Savannah should only host Free Software not specifically designed to unfair attitude, which, to my mind, is not something that Savannah should promote. For me, Savannah should host any kind of Free Software (that doesn't rely on non-free software, etc.). Users have the right to use it for what they want. It is up to the user if he uses it for bad things. We ask people to use the term Free Software instead of Open Source, because we think using Open Source is harming Free Software. So we have already a set of rule forbidding harmful attitude. That is true, but to me these things are for to different. Can you think of a use case of this software which not be something harmful and unfair? The program can also be used to fix holes in Free game software. If you can, hosting this software would be ok for me. If you cannot, I would not agree, I do not like at all the idea to contribute, by choice and not by ignorance, to unfair actions. I agree with your idea. But for me this program should be approved. Rudy -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Rudy Gevaert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:31:29AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote: To me, freedom to disregard fairness and common rules is an harm. Being able to rape any women in the street could be seen as a freedom: in this case, this freedom should not be given because it creates more harm than anything else. (I often use this example to show that every freedom should not be given) To me, your analogy isn't correct. Being able to isn't the same as having the freedom to. Hum, in fact my sentence was not clear. The following is more redundant but more accurate: Having the freedom to rape any women in the street could be seen as a freedom (indeed!) Or Being legally able to rape any women in the street could be seen as a freedom Any Free Software program can be used to be unfair or to do harm. But that doesn't say it is being used that way. Yes, if your software can serve another purpose than being unfair and harmful. I think that Savannah should only host Free Software not specifically designed to unfair attitude, which, to my mind, is not something that Savannah should promote. For me, Savannah should host any kind of Free Software (that doesn't rely on non-free software, etc.). Users have the right to use it for what they want. It is up to the user if he uses it for bad things. When someone harm other persons, it's surely up to him. But I do not want to provide the tool specifically dedicated to harm each other. We ask people to use the term Free Software instead of Open Source, because we think using Open Source is harming Free Software. So we have already a set of rule forbidding harmful attitude. That is true, but to me these things are for to different. Can you think of a use case of this software which not be something harmful and unfair? The program can also be used to fix holes in Free game software. No, it cannot. Read the description of the program. If you can, hosting this software would be ok for me. If you cannot, I would not agree, I do not like at all the idea to contribute, by choice and not by ignorance, to unfair actions. I agree with your idea. But for me this program should be approved. Your use case does not seems to me realistic according to the program description. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
There's another issue here. Even if the program in question, when executed unmodified, is only useful for unfair purposes -- a proposition which is not yet clear -- in the case of free software there are other possible uses beyond unmodified execution. Perhaps it can be studied to help learn the principles of reverse engineering, or perhaps it can be modified, or pieces of it can be used in a tool which is useful for more legitimate purposes. Mark ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
The program can also be used to fix holes in Free game software. No, it cannot. Read the description of the program. In that case, and given that apparently the main use is for cheating when playing against other players, I think we should reject this program. Meanwhile, another relevant point is that it is useful only for running non-free software. ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Hugo Gayosso [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Mathieu Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But if there's so many scanning programs for games, it also means that many people are enjoying these programs (it is not a big surprise to me that many people enjoy unfair tools). On the other hand, the 'tool' is not unfair in itself, unfair would be the person using it to take advantage in a game. If the only result of using the 'tool' is to cause harm or unfairness then we should think about it, but if the 'tool' provides other kind of results then I guess it would be the same as with network sniffing tools, etc. I cannot think of any other use case than unfairly playing over the net. Most of the games always provided cheat code for single player mode. When you need a software to cheat, it's usually against others players. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
I gather that on Windows these scanning program are common. What are the general views among gamers who use Windows about these programs? Hard to know. People must surely write about what they feel. Someone could look around and get a picture of it. ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
If the only result of using the 'tool' is to cause harm or unfairness then we should think about it, but if the 'tool' provides other kind of results then I guess it would be the same as with network sniffing tools, etc. I agree with that principle. Does anyone know which way it is? ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
[Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Personally, I'm not in favor of hosting this project because, despite of what the submitter say, it does harm games. Most of the recent game propose cheat features in the software when you are not playing over the net with other real persons but with AIs. In general, we see nothing wrong with reverse engineering tools. (The users ought to have the source code anyway.) But I need to know more in order to think about the question. I gather that on Windows these scanning program are common. What are the general views among gamers who use Windows about these programs? Hard to know. In the past, I used to play a lot to online game (proprietary software unfortunately) and I was clearly hating this kind of software, just used in a spirit of competition, by winning unfairly. But if there's so many scanning programs for games, it also means that many people are enjoying these programs (it is not a big surprise to me that many people enjoy unfair tools). -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mathieu Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But if there's so many scanning programs for games, it also means that many people are enjoying these programs (it is not a big surprise to me that many people enjoy unfair tools). On the other hand, the 'tool' is not unfair in itself, unfair would be the person using it to take advantage in a game. If the only result of using the 'tool' is to cause harm or unfairness then we should think about it, but if the 'tool' provides other kind of results then I guess it would be the same as with network sniffing tools, etc. Just an opinion. - -- Hugo Gayosso -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ckYHMNObVRBZveYRAqNvAJ9z3nPl1nWV2Q/DjkyXN9VvpKpTUQCgiCiA 1JEvdtQLZVybNrFunkntWyE= =afek -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
Re: [Savannah-hackers] Re: submission of Voyeur - Linux game hacking tool - savannah.nongnu.org
I have no problem with this project. The programmer just uses his 4 freedoms. -- Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org GNU/Linux for schools http://www.nongnu.org/glms Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org ___ Savannah-hackers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers
