Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 12:49 PM Queen, Steven Z. (GSFC-5910) <0eed424118a3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.fnal.gov> wrote: > > I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political discussions. > Hopefully an administrator will intervene. > If this continues, I will unsubscribe. Sorry about that, I'll shush.
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
Fermilab is not a government facility, but it is so funded: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Managed by Fermi Research Alliance, LLC for the U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science and although this listserve is on a USA Federal government network, it is not a classified (clandestine, DoD, security clearance, etc.) network. The Hatch act applies if one discusses specific political persons or parties (e.g., a specific USA former president, a specific agenda such as voter suppression by a specific political party), but the Hatch Act does not apply to societal issues per se. Under those other governments that I mentioned, their "hatch acts" do apply -- to everything and by everybody at all times and places. On 4/27/21 10:52 AM, Queen, Steven Z. (GSFC-5910) wrote: The Hatch Act makes it illegal for federal workers to discuss politics. This is a government list. *From:* owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Yasha Karant *Sent:* Tuesday, April 27, 2021 1:18 PM *To:* Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP For those of us one this list who are ACM members, I quote: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.acm.org-5Fcode-2D2Dof-2D2Dethics-2526d-253DDwID-2Dg-2526c-253DgRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA-2526r-253Dgd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-2DP-2DpgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A-2526m-253DrvvKgjCdyxB3pmR8XX9sSUyDJj91jQ8He2RzBGLFsWE-2526s-253DwFYH-5FRV7rQLOGae55WLKa5Ve3lYcqfdera6gdLL3ajU-2526e-253D-26amp-3Bdata-3D04-257C01-257Csteven.z.queen-2540nasa.gov-257Ca17ab3bd8e1741159c6f08d909a08464-257C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b-257C0-257C0-257C637551407289493580-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C1000-26amp-3Bsdata-3DNmsOqa-252FLPqEGv893Voz5APCahCSgC0q-252FTIJZc1Mrrss-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0=DwIG-g=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=k2PdSiBMUaK4orfwXtDf4GprNbKelOnlIDBXkpmcGU0=Mb2EKQDcSFjBPPxpEmbNCvoTK31-pLXom4K-7VjJZYU= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.acm.org-5Fcode-2D2Dof-2D2Dethics-2526d-253DDwID-2Dg-2526c-253DgRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA-2526r-253Dgd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-2DP-2DpgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A-2526m-253DrvvKgjCdyxB3pmR8XX9sSUyDJj91jQ8He2RzBGLFsWE-2526s-253DwFYH-5FRV7rQLOGae55WLKa5Ve3lYcqfdera6gdLL3ajU-2526e-253D-26amp-3Bdata-3D04-257C01-257Csteven.z.queen-2540nasa.gov-257Ca17ab3bd8e1741159c6f08d909a08464-257C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b-257C0-257C0-257C637551407289493580-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C1000-26amp-3Bsdata-3DNmsOqa-252FLPqEGv893Voz5APCahCSgC0q-252FTIJZc1Mrrss-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0=DwMFAw=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=9vN5yrwyJ43ZZVrBXc3heOGC341KYj6SU6iWv8c9l7w=B9eHffkdKCWVfMUYH6B6rLLGCPehok6sjus7c5um2ic=> A computing professional should... 1.1 Contribute to society and to human well-being, acknowledging that all people are stakeholders in computing. Similar statements exist in the ethics codes of other computing/informatics professional societies. Despite that fact that others have indicated that this, or other societal issues, are inappropriate for this list, and have threatened to unsubscribe, some discussion of this matter is appropriate and correct within the ACM code (and most other codes). This list does not conform to the codes from the former Third Reich, former USSR, present PRC, etc., for which any discussion of societal failings of the in-power control group persons is prohibited and often punishable by the government controlled by the relevant in-power group. On 4/27/21 9:49 AM, Queen, Steven Z. (GSFC-5910) wrote: I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political discussions. Hopefully an administrator will intervene. If this continues, I will unsubscribe. *From:* owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Nico Kadel-Garcia *Sent:* Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:04 AM *To:* LaToya Anderson *Cc:* Andrew C Aitchison ; Keith Lofstrom ; Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM LaToya Anderson wrote: Data does not remove bias. And one can and should both read the article and watch the movie. STEM Academy Instructor Data rather than mere exposition helps prevent bias. How do you r
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 04:49:00PM +, Queen, Steven Z. (GSFC-5910) wrote: > > I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political discussions. > I agree, I think the OP should not have brought this subject on this list. > > Hopefully an administrator will intervene. > If this continues, I will unsubscribe. > Unfortunately, technical, policy and political issues mix together and there is no avoiding that. Ignoring them is dangerous, they have a way of catching up to you in whatever cave or monastery or retreat you choose to hide in. K.O. > > From: owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov > on behalf of Nico > Kadel-Garcia > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:04 AM > To: LaToya Anderson > Cc: Andrew C Aitchison ; Keith Lofstrom > ; Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM LaToya Anderson > wrote: > > > > Data does not remove bias. And one can and should both read the article and > > watch the movie. > > > > STEM Academy Instructor > > Data rather than mere exposition helps prevent bias. How do you refute > or counter unfair bias except with data? > > The movie is, itself, profoundly biased. It didn't explore at all why > a public housing project might benefit from cameras on the door of a > densely populated building with numerous poor, old, or unhealthy > tenants. The movie was an icon of "Critical Theory", portraying the > attempt to use science and engineering for social problems as a plot > against the oppressed. > > I've lived in scary neighborhoods of London. London accepts and > expects a degree of CCTV monitoring that is outrageous to Americans. > Sadly, citizens can't *get* the videos when a crime occurs, and > photographic evidence can be misused against the innocent. Been there, > done that, watched a London parking cop frame the photos they took to > document a parking ticket, really ticked him off when I very obviously > took photos at angles that showed the car was, in fact parked near a > sign that gave permission and curb markings that matched. -- Konstantin Olchanski Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow! Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
The Hatch Act makes it illegal for federal workers to discuss politics. This is a government list. From: owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Yasha Karant Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 1:18 PM To: Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP For those of us one this list who are ACM members, I quote: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.acm.org-5Fcode-2D2Dof-2D2Dethics-2526d-253DDwID-2Dg-2526c-253DgRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA-2526r-253Dgd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-2DP-2DpgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A-2526m-253DrvvKgjCdyxB3pmR8XX9sSUyDJj91jQ8He2RzBGLFsWE-2526s-253DwFYH-5FRV7rQLOGae55WLKa5Ve3lYcqfdera6gdLL3ajU-2526e-253D-26amp-3Bdata-3D04-257C01-257Csteven.z.queen-2540nasa.gov-257Ca17ab3bd8e1741159c6f08d909a08464-257C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b-257C0-257C0-257C637551407289493580-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C1000-26amp-3Bsdata-3DNmsOqa-252FLPqEGv893Voz5APCahCSgC0q-252FTIJZc1Mrrss-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0=DwIFAw=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=9vN5yrwyJ43ZZVrBXc3heOGC341KYj6SU6iWv8c9l7w=B9eHffkdKCWVfMUYH6B6rLLGCPehok6sjus7c5um2ic= A computing professional should... 1.1 Contribute to society and to human well-being, acknowledging that all people are stakeholders in computing. Similar statements exist in the ethics codes of other computing/informatics professional societies. Despite that fact that others have indicated that this, or other societal issues, are inappropriate for this list, and have threatened to unsubscribe, some discussion of this matter is appropriate and correct within the ACM code (and most other codes). This list does not conform to the codes from the former Third Reich, former USSR, present PRC, etc., for which any discussion of societal failings of the in-power control group persons is prohibited and often punishable by the government controlled by the relevant in-power group. On 4/27/21 9:49 AM, Queen, Steven Z. (GSFC-5910) wrote: > I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political > discussions. Hopefully an administrator will intervene. > If this continues, I will unsubscribe. > > > *From:* owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov > on behalf of Nico > Kadel-Garcia > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:04 AM > *To:* LaToya Anderson > *Cc:* Andrew C Aitchison ; Keith Lofstrom > ; Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide > > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP > On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM LaToya Anderson > wrote: >> >> Data does not remove bias. And one can and should both read the article and >> watch the movie. >> >> STEM Academy Instructor > > Data rather than mere exposition helps prevent bias. How do you refute > or counter unfair bias except with data? > > The movie is, itself, profoundly biased. It didn't explore at all why > a public housing project might benefit from cameras on the door of a > densely populated building with numerous poor, old, or unhealthy > tenants. The movie was an icon of "Critical Theory", portraying the > attempt to use science and engineering for social problems as a plot > against the oppressed. > > I've lived in scary neighborhoods of London. London accepts and > expects a degree of CCTV monitoring that is outrageous to Americans. > Sadly, citizens can't *get* the videos when a crime occurs, and > photographic evidence can be misused against the innocent. Been there, > done that, watched a London parking cop frame the photos they took to > document a parking ticket, really ticked him off when I very obviously > took photos at angles that showed the car was, in fact parked near a > sign that gave permission and curb markings that matched.
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
For those of us one this list who are ACM members, I quote: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.acm.org_code-2Dof-2Dethics=DwID-g=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=rvvKgjCdyxB3pmR8XX9sSUyDJj91jQ8He2RzBGLFsWE=wFYH_RV7rQLOGae55WLKa5Ve3lYcqfdera6gdLL3ajU= A computing professional should... 1.1 Contribute to society and to human well-being, acknowledging that all people are stakeholders in computing. Similar statements exist in the ethics codes of other computing/informatics professional societies. Despite that fact that others have indicated that this, or other societal issues, are inappropriate for this list, and have threatened to unsubscribe, some discussion of this matter is appropriate and correct within the ACM code (and most other codes). This list does not conform to the codes from the former Third Reich, former USSR, present PRC, etc., for which any discussion of societal failings of the in-power control group persons is prohibited and often punishable by the government controlled by the relevant in-power group. On 4/27/21 9:49 AM, Queen, Steven Z. (GSFC-5910) wrote: I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political discussions. Hopefully an administrator will intervene. If this continues, I will unsubscribe. *From:* owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Nico Kadel-Garcia *Sent:* Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:04 AM *To:* LaToya Anderson *Cc:* Andrew C Aitchison ; Keith Lofstrom ; Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM LaToya Anderson wrote: Data does not remove bias. And one can and should both read the article and watch the movie. STEM Academy Instructor Data rather than mere exposition helps prevent bias. How do you refute or counter unfair bias except with data? The movie is, itself, profoundly biased. It didn't explore at all why a public housing project might benefit from cameras on the door of a densely populated building with numerous poor, old, or unhealthy tenants. The movie was an icon of "Critical Theory", portraying the attempt to use science and engineering for social problems as a plot against the oppressed. I've lived in scary neighborhoods of London. London accepts and expects a degree of CCTV monitoring that is outrageous to Americans. Sadly, citizens can't *get* the videos when a crime occurs, and photographic evidence can be misused against the innocent. Been there, done that, watched a London parking cop frame the photos they took to document a parking ticket, really ticked him off when I very obviously took photos at angles that showed the car was, in fact parked near a sign that gave permission and curb markings that matched.
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political discussions. Hopefully an administrator will intervene. If this continues, I will unsubscribe. From: owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Nico Kadel-Garcia Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:04 AM To: LaToya Anderson Cc: Andrew C Aitchison ; Keith Lofstrom ; Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM LaToya Anderson wrote: > > Data does not remove bias. And one can and should both read the article and > watch the movie. > > STEM Academy Instructor Data rather than mere exposition helps prevent bias. How do you refute or counter unfair bias except with data? The movie is, itself, profoundly biased. It didn't explore at all why a public housing project might benefit from cameras on the door of a densely populated building with numerous poor, old, or unhealthy tenants. The movie was an icon of "Critical Theory", portraying the attempt to use science and engineering for social problems as a plot against the oppressed. I've lived in scary neighborhoods of London. London accepts and expects a degree of CCTV monitoring that is outrageous to Americans. Sadly, citizens can't *get* the videos when a crime occurs, and photographic evidence can be misused against the innocent. Been there, done that, watched a London parking cop frame the photos they took to document a parking ticket, really ticked him off when I very obviously took photos at angles that showed the car was, in fact parked near a sign that gave permission and curb markings that matched.
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP
I don't think this list is an appropriate place for political discussions. Hopefully an administrator will intervene. If this continues, I will unsubscribe. From: owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Nico Kadel-Garcia Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:04 AM To: LaToya Anderson Cc: Andrew C Aitchison ; Keith Lofstrom ; Mailing list for Scientific Linux users worldwide Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Code bias video, watch it ASAP On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM LaToya Anderson wrote: > > Data does not remove bias. And one can and should both read the article and > watch the movie. > > STEM Academy Instructor Data rather than mere exposition helps prevent bias. How do you refute or counter unfair bias except with data? The movie is, itself, profoundly biased. It didn't explore at all why a public housing project might benefit from cameras on the door of a densely populated building with numerous poor, old, or unhealthy tenants. The movie was an icon of "Critical Theory", portraying the attempt to use science and engineering for social problems as a plot against the oppressed. I've lived in scary neighborhoods of London. London accepts and expects a degree of CCTV monitoring that is outrageous to Americans. Sadly, citizens can't *get* the videos when a crime occurs, and photographic evidence can be misused against the innocent. Been there, done that, watched a London parking cop frame the photos they took to document a parking ticket, really ticked him off when I very obviously took photos at angles that showed the car was, in fact parked near a sign that gave permission and curb markings that matched.
