Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On 12.12.2014 01:47, Bill Deegan wrote: Dirk, Trying to figure out a way we can avoid the spam problem we've had so far. Yes, I know and I'm not against it. Many thanks to you and Gary for caring to find an alternative. No matter what the final technical solution will look like, I'll definitely support it. I just wanted to point out that we're raising the barriers for the "occasional newcomer" and commenters. We do have a lot of stuff in the Wiki that's well worked out and mature enough to get served statically, complementing the UserGuide for example. But it would be good to still have a place for collecting ideas, snippets, organizing things...where people can "go nuts" if they have to. And that's what fits perfectly to a Wiki, in my opinion. We want new people and their ideas and writings coming in, not having to push them out ourselves...so we need to have low barriers for that. What about having a two stage thing, with a Wiki for collecting ideas 'n' stuff, and then statically served pages, protected by a VCS as well? A little bit like core tools vs. external ones? If we like a contribution, we'll pull it in? Finally, if we could find a Wiki, with something like the ApprovalQueue we had before, on a server that's less vulnerable to DOS attacks...that would be my favorite. Being robust against DOS is more important to me than the spam filtering/preventing issue. I don't care about the Wiki dialect so much, and I also think that the default rendering of Bitbucket looks quite okay. Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
I think we just need hosting with better protection. On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Dirk Bächle wrote: > Bill, > > > On 12.12.2014 00:52, Bill Deegan wrote: > > I'm thinking a hg repo and some sort of ci to process it when new changes > come in. > Or use readthedocs.org (It has integration with bitbucket for such already) > > That way users and do pull requests and also the webserver only has to > handle serving static pages. > > Is it reasonable to expect that users who wanted to contribute to wiki-like > content could handle mercurial? > > it's probably not so much about hg (or any other tool, for that matter), but > about the workflow that's required for getting one's changes in. To me it > feels like we're moving away from a more "scratchpad"-like medium, to static > pages. That would be okay if we had several authors and technical writers > that could create lots of pages with content. But this would mean that we > provide all the information, and we are responsible for keeping things > alive. > If that's what we want, fine. > It more or less boils down to the question: Do we want a Wiki (static pages) > for us, or for our users? > > Just some late night thoughts, to fuel the discussion... > > Regards, > > Dirk > > > ___ > Scons-dev mailing list > Scons-dev@scons.org > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev > -- anatoly t. ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
I would like to find a system that has some kind of online editor/previewer, rather than a pure clone/edit/push/pull-request system (whether it's git or hg), because sometimes you want to see how your markup will actually look on the site before pushing it. (Dirk, I think that would also help the "occasional contributor" overhead you're concerned about.) I do think something hg or git-based would be preferable. And yes, we have to move it off our current hosting provider because DoS attacks on our MoinMoin wiki bring the shared server to its knees on a somewhat regular basis. And I'm not ready to be sysadmin of another amazon micro instance, so we need a hosted solution. Anyway, I have the existing wiki mostly converted from moin to markdown (github flavor, but I could redo it as a different flavor depending on what we choose) with only a few hand edits necessary. Some things like the Bug() macro won't translate, but I think we can live without that. I didn't find any decent tools to convert from moin to rst, so I think going with a markdown solution would be easier than rst at this point, though I think pandoc can convert between markdown and rst, so if needed we can do that -- not sure how lossy that conversion would be. So that's the state of the wiki world at this point. I'll try to make progress over the weekend but am not sold on a particular solution; bitbucket seems like the easiest path right now but I'm open to other possibilities if they meet the above criteria. On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:12 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote: > I think we just need hosting with better protection. > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Dirk Bächle wrote: > > Bill, > > > > > > On 12.12.2014 00:52, Bill Deegan wrote: > > > > I'm thinking a hg repo and some sort of ci to process it when new changes > > come in. > > Or use readthedocs.org (It has integration with bitbucket for such > already) > > > > That way users and do pull requests and also the webserver only has to > > handle serving static pages. > > > > Is it reasonable to expect that users who wanted to contribute to > wiki-like > > content could handle mercurial? > > > > it's probably not so much about hg (or any other tool, for that matter), > but > > about the workflow that's required for getting one's changes in. To me it > > feels like we're moving away from a more "scratchpad"-like medium, to > static > > pages. That would be okay if we had several authors and technical writers > > that could create lots of pages with content. But this would mean that we > > provide all the information, and we are responsible for keeping things > > alive. > > If that's what we want, fine. > > It more or less boils down to the question: Do we want a Wiki (static > pages) > > for us, or for our users? > > > > Just some late night thoughts, to fuel the discussion... > > > > Regards, > > > > Dirk > > > > > > ___ > > Scons-dev mailing list > > Scons-dev@scons.org > > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev > > > > > > -- > anatoly t. > ___ > Scons-dev mailing list > Scons-dev@scons.org > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev > -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 6:00 AM, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > I would like to find a system that has some kind of online editor/previewer, > rather than a pure clone/edit/push/pull-request system (whether it's git or > hg), because sometimes you want to see how your markup will actually look on > the site before pushing it. (Dirk, I think that would also help the > "occasional contributor" overhead you're concerned about.) Actually, github support this kind of edit. For a markdown file in a github repo, you can click the edit button and modify it, during which you can preview the document in real time. After editing, if you are the owner/committer/admin of the repo, you can create a new commit. If not, you can propose a pull request. -- yegle http://about.me/yegle ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
Gary, On 12.12.2014 15:00, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: I would like to find a system that has some kind of online editor/previewer, rather than a pure clone/edit/push/pull-request system (whether it's git or hg), because sometimes you want to see how your markup will actually look on the site before pushing it. (Dirk, I think that would also help the "occasional contributor" overhead you're concerned about.) I do think something hg or git-based would be preferable. sounds acceptable. What I'm mainly after is that a user can queue his changes...and then forget about them. So he doesn't have to cycle through all kinds of review steps, or answer further inquiries. That might put people off... It should be "edit", "save/commit"...done. And yes, we have to move it off our current hosting provider because DoS attacks on our MoinMoin wiki bring the shared server to its knees on a somewhat regular basis. And I'm not ready to be sysadmin of another amazon micro instance, so we need a hosted solution. Do we have admin access to the host where our website is running on? What is it exactly, apached? I just stumbled over this module http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smb-technologist/secure-your-apache-server-from-ddos-slowloris-and-dns-injection-attacks/ , not sure if it could really help. Anyway, I have the existing wiki mostly converted from moin to markdown (github flavor, but I could redo it as a different flavor depending on what we choose) with only a few hand edits necessary. Some things like the Bug() macro won't translate, but I think we can live without that. I didn't find any decent tools to convert from moin to rst, so I think going with a markdown solution would be easier than rst at this point, though I think pandoc can convert between markdown and rst, so if needed we can do that -- not sure how lossy that conversion would be. There is also Creole ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_(markup) ), which is supported by Bitbucket. I have no personal experience with it, but it seems to be designed for exactly this purpose of migrating from one Wiki to another. Best regards, Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Dirk Bächle wrote: > Gary, > > On 12.12.2014 15:00, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > >> I would like to find a system that has some kind of online >> editor/previewer, rather than a pure clone/edit/push/pull-request system >> (whether it's git or hg), because sometimes you want to see how your markup >> will actually look on the site before pushing it. (Dirk, I think that >> would also help the "occasional contributor" overhead you're concerned >> about.) I do think something hg or git-based would be preferable. >> > sounds acceptable. What I'm mainly after is that a user can queue his > changes...and then forget about them. So he doesn't have to cycle through > all kinds of review steps, or answer further inquiries. That might put > people off... > It should be "edit", "save/commit"...done. > >> And yes, we have to move it off our current hosting provider because DoS >> attacks on our MoinMoin wiki bring the shared server to its knees on a >> somewhat regular basis. And I'm not ready to be sysadmin of another amazon >> micro instance, so we need a hosted solution. >> >> Do we have admin access to the host where our website is running on? > What is it exactly, apached? I just stumbled over this module > > http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smb-technologist/secure- > your-apache-server-from-ddos-slowloris-and-dns-injection-attacks/ > No, sadly we don't. Just .htaccess. And I don't think our problems stem from those kinds of things, though perhaps the first one would help, I don't know. A lot of it is fake account creation attempts and other probes based on knowing it's a moinmoin wiki. > , not sure if it could really help. > > Anyway, I have the existing wiki mostly converted from moin to markdown >> (github flavor, but I could redo it as a different flavor depending on what >> we choose) with only a few hand edits necessary. Some things like the >> Bug() macro won't translate, but I think we can live without that. I >> didn't find any decent tools to convert from moin to rst, so I think going >> with a markdown solution would be easier than rst at this point, though I >> think pandoc can convert between markdown and rst, so if needed we can do >> that -- not sure how lossy that conversion would be. >> > There is also Creole ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_(markup) ), > which is supported by Bitbucket. I have no personal experience with it, but > it seems to be designed for exactly this purpose of migrating from one Wiki > to another > I didn't find any translators from moinmoin to creole. I don't think pandoc can go from markdown (what I have now) to creole yet. BItbucket also supports markdown though, so if we want to do that it would be easy (technically). Some folks in this discussion seemed to think it wasn't great, I don't know. Since I have the markdown pages (or will by the weekend), I can try pushing up a repo as a bb wiki and we can see how we like it. It would be a little odd to have our code at bitbucket and our wiki at github, but if github's wiki engine/editor is way better, I'd consider it. After all our wiki has been a separate thing for years already. -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On 12.12.2014 18:43, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: [...] It would be a little odd to have our code at bitbucket and our wiki at github, but if github's wiki engine/editor is way better, I'd consider it. After all our wiki has been a separate thing for years already. Ahh, I can already see where you're going with this ;) Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Dirk Bächle wrote: > On 12.12.2014 18:43, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > >> >> [...] >> >> >> It would be a little odd to have our code at bitbucket and our wiki at >> github, but if github's wiki engine/editor is way better, I'd consider it. >> After all our wiki has been a separate thing for years already. >> >> Ahh, I can already see where you're going with this ;) > > You're thinking I want to move _everything_ to github I bet. Actually, no. I do like git better than mercurial, it's true; but bitbucket seems to have fine git support these days so I'm agnostic on that. I really just want to get the wiki back up soon, and not have to think about it anymore for a while :-). If someone proposes some other code-oriented wiki site I'd be just as happy to use that for the wiki. -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > You're thinking I want to move _everything_ to github I bet. Actually, no. > I do like git better than mercurial, it's true; but bitbucket seems to have > fine git support these days so I'm agnostic on that. I really just want to > get the wiki back up soon, and not have to think about it anymore for a > while :-). If someone proposes some other code-oriented wiki site I'd be > just as happy to use that for the wiki. How about host the markdown files in github, and publish them using Github Pages? -- yegle http://about.me/yegle ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:44 PM, yegle wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Gary Oberbrunner > wrote: > > You're thinking I want to move _everything_ to github I bet. Actually, > no. > > I do like git better than mercurial, it's true; but bitbucket seems to > have > > fine git support these days so I'm agnostic on that. I really just want > to > > get the wiki back up soon, and not have to think about it anymore for a > > while :-). If someone proposes some other code-oriented wiki site I'd be > > just as happy to use that for the wiki. > > How about host the markdown files in github, and publish them using > Github Pages? > It's possible. There's no online editor there, however, which I think will limit the contributions to the "wiki". -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > It's possible. There's no online editor there, however, which I think will > limit the contributions to the "wiki". Yes there is, for every file in github, you can click on the small edit button on the up right corner, which will bring you to something like https://github.com/golang/go/edit/master/README.md Github will automatically fork that repo for you and submit a PR on your behave. -- yegle http://about.me/yegle ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 2:14 PM, yegle wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Gary Oberbrunner > wrote: > > It's possible. There's no online editor there, however, which I think > will > > limit the contributions to the "wiki". > > Yes there is, for every file in github, you can click on the small > edit button on the up right corner, which will bring you to something > like https://github.com/golang/go/edit/master/README.md Github will > automatically fork that repo for you and submit a PR on your behave. Aha, I didn't know that! Nice. The previewer looks good, and even marks your changes in the margin. (A little odd that it has to fork the repo for you, but it kind of makes sense.) -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
You can pair that with this javascript/jquery based browser based wiki.. http://dynalon.github.io/mdwiki/#!index.md -Bill On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 2:14 PM, yegle wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Gary Oberbrunner >> wrote: >> > It's possible. There's no online editor there, however, which I think >> will >> > limit the contributions to the "wiki". >> >> Yes there is, for every file in github, you can click on the small >> edit button on the up right corner, which will bring you to something >> like https://github.com/golang/go/edit/master/README.md Github will >> automatically fork that repo for you and submit a PR on your behave. > > > Aha, I didn't know that! Nice. The previewer looks good, and even marks > your changes in the margin. > > (A little odd that it has to fork the repo for you, but it kind of makes > sense.) > > -- > Gary > > ___ > Scons-dev mailing list > Scons-dev@scons.org > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev > > ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Bill Deegan wrote: > You can pair that with this javascript/jquery based browser based wiki.. > http://dynalon.github.io/mdwiki/#!index.md > > -Bill > Interesting... the point of that is to provide theming and richer content I take it? It doesn't provide an editor, but maybe the built-in github editor would continue to work. (Their FAQ does say it's hard to make the pages crawlable, and I do think that's important.) -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
