Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
You will recall that Islam in the US was the fastest growing religion in prisons - for the same reason. Can give some citations? Just curious. What happens after that is that this pre-existing social divide serves as a religious divide so that the Church or some other religious organization can join the fight and call it religious persecution. This is politics, not religion. Is not religion also culture? Would you call Arya Samaj religion or the practice of Infant Jesus religion or going for urs and to dargahs religion? Maybe all of us seriously need to think what religion is. If you say you are Hindu, then you are not Hindu in the same way that my Bengali brother-in-law is or my mother's Marwari brother is. This is exactly what you have done Biju. You have converted a problem that affects all Indians into a Islam and Christanity versus others affair in the post that started this thread. I think Biju simply put forward the article and expressed his concerns. You chose to read it the way you have stated it here. You then ask if migration might be a good idea. What do you do when you feel alienated? It is simply an expression of disgust, hurt and upset. Instead of being empathic, you want to launch into explaining yourself. And you have the gumption to turn around and accuse me. May respectfully suggest that if you have an icky taste in your mouth you ought to wash your mouth. This is really one of the problems I see, not only on this list, but in general in discussions these days. We get reactive and then want to respond immediately with our positions and justifications. Why not wait and mull over for a bit? I admit that I can also get reactive and want to respond immediately, but that is what I am stopping myself from doing these days. Otherwise discussions degenerate into ... Zainab P.S. Have rinsed my mouth with AM-PM mouthwash before writing. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Monday 27 Apr 2009 10:31:36 am Biju Chacko wrote: Hm ... do you really believe this or are you just trolling as usual? If the former, that's an interesting data point in itself. Combined with some other, equally prejudiced comments on this list earlier supports the view that Indian polity is increasing driven by a us and them mindset. By the way, I'm not sure if you care but your blanket condemnation of Islam and Christianity left a rather icky taste in my mouth. For too long I have heard aggressive accusations such as this. Let me state my views plainly. Victimhood and pesrecution and All of non-us are against us are a recurrent theme in Christianity and islam. Correction - the Christianty that Jesus Christ oiginally fostered was taken over by the Roman empire to create a Roman chritianity that was later opposed by a mirror image foil - that is islam. It is a standard tactic among both these faiths to selectively target people on one side of an existing social divide. For example - conversions are always aimed at the poor or low caste people with the ostensible excuse that these people are being given sympathy and succor that they will not otherwise get from the unjust society they reside in. You will recall that Islam in the US was the fastest growing religion in prisons - for the same reason. What happens after that is that this pre-existing social divide serves as a religious divide so that the Church or some other religious organization can join the fight and call it religious persecution. This is politics, not religion. This is exactly what you have done Biju. You have converted a problem that affects all Indians into a Islam and Christanity versus others affair in the post that started this thread. You then ask if migration might be a good idea. And you have the gumption to turn around and accuse me. May respectfully suggest that if you have an icky taste in your mouth you ought to wash your mouth. Long ago I had summed up this tactic in the form of a diagram. You can see it here: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/cybersurg/brf/EVANGE.jpg shiv
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: And you have the gumption to turn around and accuse me. May respectfully suggest that if you have an icky taste in your mouth you ought to wash your mouth. This is really one of the problems I see, not only on this list, but in general in discussions these days. We get reactive and then want to respond immediately with our positions and justifications. Why not wait and mull over for a bit? I admit that I can also get reactive and want to respond immediately, but that is what I am stopping myself from doing these days. Otherwise discussions degenerate into ... Zainab P.S. Have rinsed my mouth with AM-PM mouthwash before writing. I think the way this thread, and other threads in the recent past have gone, I'm better off rinsing my mouth not responding at all :) - Mo (who's seriously evaluating migrating to the moon :p)
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
Mohit (मॊिहत) wrote: - Mo (who's seriously evaluating migrating to the moon :p) Can you please send me an invite when you do? ;-) But seriously, I came back (most of my friends still think I am nuts) after refusing green card offers in the US and PR in Singapore. So far, it has been a good challenging life and I am loving it as the really horrible McDonald's ads say. V
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:23 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: This is exactly what you have done Biju. You have converted a problem that affects all Indians into a Islam and Christanity versus others affair in the post that started this thread. You then ask if migration might be a good idea. And you have the gumption to turn around and accuse me. May respectfully suggest that if you have an icky taste in your mouth you ought to wash your mouth. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wrestling_with_a_pig I'm sure I've got better ways of wasting my time. -- b
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.comwrote: Mohit (मॊिहत) wrote: - Mo (who's seriously evaluating migrating to the moon :p) Can you please send me an invite when you do? ;-) Most welcome...drop by any time...bring your own booze, and we can have a party :) But seriously, I came back (most of my friends still think I am nuts) after refusing green card offers in the US and PR in Singapore. So far, it has been a good challenging life and I am loving it as the really horrible McDonald's ads say. I came back after 2.5 years in UK myself...and while I love the life here in general... - Mo
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
ss wrote, [on 4/28/2009 5:23 PM]: For too long I have heard aggressive accusations such as this. Let me state my views plainly. As will I. Victimhood and pesrecution and All of non-us are against us are a recurrent theme in Christianity and islam. Correction - the Christianty that Jesus Christ oiginally fostered was taken over by the Roman empire to create a Roman chritianity that was later opposed by a mirror image foil - that is islam. All of which has little, if anything, to do with the topic at hand - and the truth value thereof. i.e., is the accusation true or not? The rhetorical tactics adopted by you ignore that entirely. It is a standard tactic among both these faiths to selectively target people on one side of an existing social divide. For example - conversions are always aimed at the poor or low caste people with the ostensible excuse that these people are being given sympathy and succor that they will not otherwise get from the unjust society they reside in. You will recall that Islam in the US was the fastest growing religion in prisons - for the same reason. I find the use of quotes very interesting in the above. What, exactly, is the significance of the poor and low caste? Why the quote marks? Are you claiming that the referents of these terms are not really poor or low caste? And what does that do to your argument? Though interesting, this is still an handwaving tactic - akin to the your fly is open gambit [1] (sauce for the goose and all that). What happens after that is that this pre-existing social divide serves as a religious divide so that the Church or some other religious organization can join the fight and call it religious persecution. This is politics, not religion. So? The original claim that started this thread was quote Even if the cases are not statistically significant enough prove anything, the very fact that the stories are making the rounds are indicative of the suspicious and mistrustful attitude developing in the community. /quote It is not clear that your response has (directly, at least) addressed this thesis - except, perhaps, in a QED fashion. As a secondary point, I am not sure it is at all possible to separate religion and politics. If there is any point in human history where this has occurred, kindly expand my education. This is exactly what you have done Biju. You have converted a problem that affects all Indians into a Islam and Christanity versus others affair in the post that started this thread. You then ask if migration might be a good idea. And you have the gumption to turn around and accuse me. May respectfully suggest that if you have an icky taste in your mouth you ought to wash your mouth. The first thing this brings to mind, sadly enough, is the Freudian notion of projection [2]. Udhay [1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silk-list/message/28310 [2] http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/478472/projection -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, gerrymandering does take place in India. One of the recent cases (that was reported in DNA newspaper, if I remember correctly), was the case of election of a municipal councillor in Juhu who won the council elections in 2007 because of the change in the constituency which enabled him to gain votes from his ''votebank''. In Kenya until 1990 there were 42 districts. Before the elections of 1992 the ruling dictator changed this to 70 districts to reflect his votebank. Between the elections of 2002 and 2007 - 138 new districts were added to make it 218 districts in total. There is a plan to add at least 25 more ... primarily to divide the vote-banks and also to employ supporters of the ruling party in government jobs.
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:53 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: It is a standard tactic among both these faiths to selectively target people on one side of an existing social divide. For example - conversions are always aimed at the poor or low caste people with the ostensible excuse that these people are being given sympathy and succor that they will not otherwise get from the unjust society they reside in. You will recall that Islam in the US was the fastest growing religion in prisons - for the same reason. Whats the correlation between american prisoners / the poor / and low caste people ?? If you have ever visited or attended mass at a born again church you will be quite surprised to know that many are aimed at the middle class / lower middle class - since that is where the money is.
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.comwrote: Vinayak Hegde wrote: Some people I know are of the opinion that there are corrupt officials who work with the politicians and delete the names if they suspect that the votes are going to their opponent. His argument seemed plausible, but I do not buy it. Has anyone else heard such stuff? Is this true? It is true. I have come across both studies as well as experiences from friends and family members contesting elections at different levels indicating that this is indeed does take place. Electoral rolls are a very powerful political tool. They have been systematically used during the anti-Sikh riots as well during the 1992-1993 riots in Bombay to mark Sikhs and minorities respectively and launch targeted attacks. It is also true that parties field candidates with names sounding similar to those of other candidates who are contesting from the same constituency but from different parties, in order to confound voters. Sometimes, voters in a particular constituency field candidates among themselves in order to eat into the vote shares of the popular candidates. These behaviours, among many others, are known as tactical voting. I have stopped reading mainstream newspapers as all they look for nowadays is a good story - truth be damned. Sad but true. I was also extremely sceptical when I read the first report in The Hindu, wondering whether this was an act of sensationalizing. I am trying to contact the reporters who have done these stories to verify as well as to get a more nuanced understanding. But I agree with Biju's comment that given the current political atmosphere and the polarizations that mark both our polity and our mindsets, it becomes difficult to ignore these reports as mere instances of sensationalism and victim-hood. It would help to investigate more and challenge our own beliefs and assumptions. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
Combined with some other, equally prejudiced comments on this list earlier supports the view that Indian polity is increasing driven by a us and them mindset. So somebody who wants to protect himself from hassle and looks for references before letting out their place to a member of a community (because in his own experience i.e. not reports in the press or other anecdotal evidence, they have a statistically significant number with the us and them attitude) and a person who hears of a few cases of missing names from electoral rolls (anecdotal by their own admission and through the Indian press who always have a flair for sensationalism no less) and attributes this to a large scale conspiracy to disenfranchise them are in the same boat? But looking at the larger picture, I guess this is the very nature of terrorism, divisive politics, and religious fundamentalism (the only difference between the first and the last two is the intentional violence on innocents, the long term damage to society remains the same). They create a faceless enemy and I suppose the human tendency to always get to the root of the fear, to understand it, leads them to conclude that it is an entire community which they have to fear (the propaganda makes this a very easy conclusion to arrive at). This has also created a very easy label to put on those whose actions (and incidentally statements on this list) can be termed cautious at the most - bigot. So what is the pragmatic, intelligent response to such tactics, acknowledging the fact that such tactics are being used by members in each of the major communities in India, be it on caste or religious lines? What might be constructive to the discussion would be an implicit assumption that everybody on this list means well and have nothing to profit from such tactics (Assume goodwill). Kiran
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.comwrote: Vinayak Hegde wrote: Some people I know are of the opinion that there are corrupt officials who work with the politicians and delete the names if they suspect that the votes are going to their opponent. His argument seemed plausible, but I do not buy it. Has anyone else heard such stuff? Is this true? It is true. I have come across both studies as well as experiences from friends and family members contesting elections at different levels indicating that this is indeed does take place. Electoral rolls are a very powerful political tool. They have been systematically used during the anti-Sikh riots as well during the 1992-1993 riots in Bombay to mark Sikhs and minorities respectively and launch targeted attacks. It is also true that parties field candidates with names sounding similar to those of other candidates who are contesting from the same constituency but from different parties, in order to confound voters. Sometimes, voters in a particular constituency field candidates among themselves in order to eat into the vote shares of the popular candidates. These behaviours, among many others, are known as tactical voting. I have stopped reading mainstream newspapers as all they look for nowadays is a good story - truth be damned. Sad but true. I was also extremely sceptical when I read the first report in The Hindu, wondering whether this was an act of sensationalizing. I am trying to contact the reporters who have done these stories to verify as well as to get a more nuanced understanding. But I agree with Biju's comment that given the current political atmosphere and the polarizations that mark both our polity and our mindsets, it becomes difficult to ignore these reports as mere instances of sensationalism and victim-hood. It would help to investigate more and challenge our own beliefs and assumptions. Quoting in full to point out that the first para (which mentions Vinayak Hegde wrote: ) were not made by me but Venkat. I think the email client has not quoted properly (The email equivalent of putting words into my mouth heh :) As with any system, the democratic system has been gamed by unscrupulous elements. Vote-bank politics is one way. Another way is Gerrymandering[1] (which is a toponym[2]) which as been around for more than a century) US has a long history of this - a recent sample[3] , in fact as long as electoral system itself. I will be interested if anyone can point out if gerrymandering has happened in India. EC took a stand against dummy candidates recently[4]. On a tangential note, since exit polls were banned I was surprised to see NDTV use bookie odds to predict the winner (Not surprisingly they showed a congress victory - case of cherrypicking data knowing their congress-biased reporting) more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_malpractice -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_derived_from_toponyms 3. http://www.slate.com/id/2208216/ 4. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4357117.cms
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: So what is the pragmatic, intelligent response to such tactics, acknowledging the fact that such tactics are being used by members in each of the major communities in India, be it on caste or religious lines? What might be constructive to the discussion would be an implicit assumption that everybody on this list means well and have nothing to profit from such tactics (Assume goodwill). Amen. Thathaastu. etc. I'm already hearing expressions of concern offlist that silk is becoming a little less tolerant of difference of opinion than it used to be, especially where it concerns religion/politics. I don't agree, at this point - I still believe that the membership of this list is largely smart enough to learn from those whose opinions are different from theirs. I'm still of the opinion that (unlike many other lists/boards) there is no need to ban or regulate postings on religion/politics. The reminder quoted above doesn't hurt any, though. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
I will be interested if anyone can point out if gerrymandering has happened in India. Yes, gerrymandering does take place in India. One of the recent cases (that was reported in DNA newspaper, if I remember correctly), was the case of election of a municipal councillor in Juhu who won the council elections in 2007 because of the change in the constituency which enabled him to gain votes from his ''votebank''. Gerrymandering is also a very complex process because it takes place differently and is claimed to be the outcome of string pulling by high level officials in the political party/ies. I am trying to look into gerrymandering for my own Ph.D. thesis work. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
But looking at the larger picture, I guess this is the very nature of terrorism, divisive politics, and religious fundamentalism (the only difference between the first and the last two is the intentional violence on innocents, the long term damage to society remains the same). They create a faceless enemy and I suppose the human tendency to always get to the root of the fear, to understand it, leads them to conclude that it is an entire community which they have to fear (the propaganda makes this a very easy conclusion to arrive at). This has also created a very easy label to put on those whose actions (and incidentally statements on this list) can be termed cautious at the most - bigot. Which is why it becomes even more crucial to take that one extra step, to walk that one extra mile, to challenge our perceptions and to question the boundaries that our and/or our immediate society has created around us. I don't mean to sound diadactic, but that is the only hopeful way forward. The other means is when we, as a mass or a community, intentionally choose to move beyond historical rights and wrongs and embrace each other despite differences. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
However, gerrymandering as a prerogative of the govt of the day, as it is understood in the US, is not acceptable in India. Zainab's example I think relates to the new delimitation of constituencies which is based on population changes and not the mere political expediency of the govt of the day. On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: But looking at the larger picture, I guess this is the very nature of terrorism, divisive politics, and religious fundamentalism (the only difference between the first and the last two is the intentional violence on innocents, the long term damage to society remains the same). They create a faceless enemy and I suppose the human tendency to always get to the root of the fear, to understand it, leads them to conclude that it is an entire community which they have to fear (the propaganda makes this a very easy conclusion to arrive at). This has also created a very easy label to put on those whose actions (and incidentally statements on this list) can be termed cautious at the most - bigot. Which is why it becomes even more crucial to take that one extra step, to walk that one extra mile, to challenge our perceptions and to question the boundaries that our and/or our immediate society has created around us. I don't mean to sound diadactic, but that is the only hopeful way forward. The other means is when we, as a mass or a community, intentionally choose to move beyond historical rights and wrongs and embrace each other despite differences. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 5:35 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: May I put it to you that when a Christian or Muslim finds his name absent it is minority discrimination. When a Hindu finds his name absent - it is Indian inefficiency and corruption. The point is that a few years ago the response to a missing name on the electoral roll from a middle class Syrian Christian Mallu would have been Man, these guys are incompetent. Today its The Sangh Parivar is out to get me. It doesn't matter if it's true or not -- the point is that the political climate has become so polarised that a community that mostly ignores politics (even in Kerala!) is developing collective paranoia. And *that* is what is worrying me as I said in my original post. Without saying that there is no discrimination, I must point out that the tactic used by Christianity and Islam, throughout history is to continuouly allege discrimination and play victim. By design Chriatianity and Islam are always under attack as evidenced by the ever present stories of discsimination. To me this might be another case of crying wolf as usual. Hm ... do you really believe this or are you just trolling as usual? If the former, that's an interesting data point in itself. Combined with some other, equally prejudiced comments on this list earlier supports the view that Indian polity is increasing driven by a us and them mindset. By the way, I'm not sure if you care but your blanket condemnation of Islam and Christianity left a rather icky taste in my mouth. -- b
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
Vinayak Hegde wrote: I think the electoral rolls were messed up for quite a few people. I know of 4 instances (all hindu if that helps) of names being mangled and names being deleted amongst my friends. I think it is more to do with improper process (and incompetent officials) rather than any bias. Some people I know are of the opinion that there are corrupt officials who work with the politicians and delete the names if they suspect that the votes are going to their opponent. His argument seemed plausible, but I do not buy it. Has anyone else heard such stuff? Is this true? I have stopped reading mainstream newspapers as all they look for nowadays is a good story - truth be damned. Sad but true. Don't forget the TV channels. All they want is a straw and they will sensationalize it. Reminds of a recent sighting on News 9, a Bangalore based local news channel. They were making a big hue and cry about a program that was going to be aired later that night that was based on the news that a woman was growing 'pot' in pots at home. The ad was sounding as if it was a gruesome mass murder. Venkat
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
Don't forget the TV channels. All they want is a straw and they will sensationalize it. Reminds of a recent sighting on News 9, a Bangalore based local news channel. They were making a big hue and cry about a program that was going to be aired later that night that was based on the news that a woman was growing 'pot' in pots at home. The ad was sounding as if it was a gruesome mass murder. Hey, you need ratings to get Nivea and Garnier to sell their skin lightening products. Apparently no one believes the Western World when we say that Indians are good looking the way they are. And we'd like to be darker. I've been sunburned twice here already. It's unpleasant. But to quote Perry Farrell from Jane's Addiction, -- The news is just another show selling sex and violence -- Ted, Just Admit It from the album Nothing's Shocking
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
sic lightening On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote: Don't forget the TV channels. All they want is a straw and they will sensationalize it. Reminds of a recent sighting on News 9, a Bangalore based local news channel. They were making a big hue and cry about a program that was going to be aired later that night that was based on the news that a woman was growing 'pot' in pots at home. The ad was sounding as if it was a gruesome mass murder. Hey, you need ratings to get Nivea and Garnier to sell their skin lightening products. Apparently no one believes the Western World when we say that Indians are good looking the way they are. And we'd like to be darker. I've been sunburned twice here already. It's unpleasant. But to quote Perry Farrell from Jane's Addiction, -- The news is just another show selling sex and violence -- Ted, Just Admit It from the album Nothing's Shocking
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
(Bah, gmail on blackberry does not allow bottom posting) As someone once said, do not attribute to malice that which can be sufficiently attributed to stupidity. The voter ID card creation and distribution business is extremely low margin and quick turn around, and the contract goes to the lowest bidder with verified credentials who may legally further subcontract it to fly by night operators to keep costs low. I don't think anyone in the entire process chain is paid to think. Cheeni On 4/25/09, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: I'm getting a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support reports that minorities have been systematically disenfranchised. Other than the reports in the paper of widespread deletion of muslim names from electoral rolls, I've been been hearing a lot from Christians as well. I've heard of: * Names marked 'deleted' on the rolls. * Names missing (which were present online just a month ago). * Voter Registration attempts being rejected without explanation. Even if the cases are not statistically significant enough prove anything, the very fact that the stories are making the rounds are indicative of the suspicious and mistrustful attitude developing in the community. That's definitely worrying -- many indications are that Indian society is more divided along caste and religious lines now than at any time since independence. *sigh* Time to start moving assets abroad? -- b -- Sent from my mobile device Cheeni Q: Why is this email 5 sentences or fewer? A: http://five.sentenc.es/
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: (Bah, gmail on blackberry does not allow bottom posting) As someone once said, do not attribute to malice that which can be sufficiently attributed to stupidity. Napolean Boneparte
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Saturday 25 Apr 2009 10:16:00 am Biju Chacko wrote: I'm getting a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support reports that minorities have been systematically disenfranchised. Other than the reports in the paper of widespread deletion of muslim names from electoral rolls, I've been been hearing a lot from Christians as well. I've heard of: * Names marked 'deleted' on the rolls. * Names missing (which were present online just a month ago). * Voter Registration attempts being rejected without explanation. Even if the cases are not statistically significant enough prove anything, the very fact that the stories are making the rounds are indicative of the suspicious and mistrustful attitude developing in the community. That's definitely worrying -- many indications are that Indian society is more divided along caste and religious lines now than at any time since independence. *sigh* Time to start moving assets abroad? -- b Biju have you checked how many Hindus had their names deleted? May I put it to you that when a Christian or Muslim finds his name absent it is minority discrimination. When a Hindu finds his name absent - it is Indian inefficiency and corruption. Without saying that there is no discrimination, I must point out that the tactic used by Christianity and Islam, throughout history is to continuouly allege discrimination and play victim. By design Chriatianity and Islam are always under attack as evidenced by the ever present stories of discsimination. To me this might be another case of crying wolf as usual. shiv
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
--- On Sun, 26/4/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Sunday, 26 April, 2009, 5:35 AM On Saturday 25 Apr 2009 10:16:00 am Biju Chacko wrote: I'm getting a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support reports that minorities have been systematically disenfranchised. Other than the reports in the paper of widespread deletion of muslim names from electoral rolls, I've been been hearing a lot from Christians as well. I've heard of: * Names marked 'deleted' on the rolls. * Names missing (which were present online just a month ago). * Voter Registration attempts being rejected without explanation. Even if the cases are not statistically significant enough prove anything, the very fact that the stories are making the rounds are indicative of the suspicious and mistrustful attitude developing in the community. That's definitely worrying -- many indications are that Indian society is more divided along caste and religious lines now than at any time since independence. *sigh* Time to start moving assets abroad? -- b Biju have you checked how many Hindus had their names deleted? May I put it to you that when a Christian or Muslim finds his name absent it is minority discrimination. When a Hindu finds his name absent - it is Indian inefficiency and corruption. Without saying that there is no discrimination, I must point out that the tactic used by Christianity and Islam, throughout history is to continuouly allege discrimination and play victim. By design Chriatianity and Islam are always under attack as evidenced by the ever present stories of discsimination. To me this might be another case of crying wolf as usual. shiv I think taking the fact that names are missing, and are regularly excluded from the lists, point to corruption and to mechanical re-working of the lists at intervals to show billable activity, rather than to discrimination. It is obvious that the bulk of names missing from a Hindu majority area will be Hindu; in a Christian majority area will be Christian; and so on, and so forth. We should be asking ourselves different questions: (i) Why cannot I show my PAN card for purposes of identification and then vote, without any other formal identification being needed? Or my BSNL telephone bill? Or my driving license? (ii) Why cannot the voters' id card be left to be issued only to those who have no other id? (iii) Why are names systematically mangled and details botched up, not at the outset, but after they have been correctly recorded in the first instance? Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
Shiv +1 Even my dad who is a Hindu, could not vote in Bangalore Central, with is a new constituency after the recent delimitation process and where Sangliana, a Christian has won last Loksabha seat on a BJP ticket and is now on a Congress ticket. My dad's name was not in the lists even though my mother's and my name were included in the list. We are assuming that since we changed address from Mysore to Bangalore, the officials might have erred in including Dad's name in the lists. But, I'd like to find out the real reason somehow. In nutshell, I strongly detest this victimhood and speaking from religious view points from anyone be it - Hindu, Muslim and Christian. It is fairly understandable to see this emanating from poor sections of society. But I find it loathable if it is from highly educated sections of the society. It is quite sad that the Election Commission, which needs to be praised for working hard to ensure elections go off smoothly in a great democratic country like India, still has lots of questions to be answered on it's plate. -- Bharat On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:05 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: Biju have you checked how many Hindus had their names deleted? May I put it to you that when a Christian or Muslim finds his name absent it is minority discrimination. When a Hindu finds his name absent - it is Indian inefficiency and corruption. Without saying that there is no discrimination, I must point out that the tactic used by Christianity and Islam, throughout history is to continuouly allege discrimination and play victim. By design Chriatianity and Islam are always under attack as evidenced by the ever present stories of discsimination. To me this might be another case of crying wolf as usual. shiv
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
Btw, Just few small corrections on typos: Even my dad who is a Hindu, could not vote in Bangalore Central, with with - which answered on it's plate. it's - its Moreover, a friend informs me that the Election Commission usually does a survey of the persons who have not voted and if they find that particular person has not voted and hasn't been found around at the address they have given earlier, such names are marked as deleted on the rolls. There could be other plausible reasons as well. Thanks, -- Bharat
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: (ii) Why cannot the voters' id card be left to be issued only to those who have no other id? I'd prefer ONE Indian Card which will serve the purpose of a national's identification for all social services provided by the government. The latter however raises the question of which government service is still usable by all Indians. (iii) Why are names systematically mangled and details botched up, not at the outset, but after they have been correctly recorded in the first instance? hmm dont forget that Indians take pride in their mother-tongue, so your name (with details included) will be correctly recorded in the State's local language and then transcribed to the National language and finally when its printed in the colonial lingua franca, you'd not recognize yourself even if your name bit your nose. -- .
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
--- On Sun, 26/4/09, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: From: . svaks...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Sunday, 26 April, 2009, 9:38 AM On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: (ii) Why cannot the voters' id card be left to be issued only to those who have no other id? I'd prefer ONE Indian Card which will serve the purpose of a national's identification for all social services provided by the government. The latter however raises the question of which government service is still usable by all Indians. (iii) Why are names systematically mangled and details botched up, not at the outset, but after they have been correctly recorded in the first instance? hmm dont forget that Indians take pride in their mother-tongue, so your name (with details included) will be correctly recorded in the State's local language and then transcribed to the National language and finally when its printed in the colonial lingua franca, you'd not recognize yourself even if your name bit your nose. -- . While I say this, it is not without recognition of the hazards of handing over too much information to a dysfunctional system of administration. There has been tremendous resistance to the single national card idea from civil liberties quarters, and they should not be discounted altogether. Having said that, we still have too many id cards and proofs of identity floating around (passport was yet another) and could do with a single-point card. What it should be is a moot point. About the need for caution with regional languages: I shall heed your warning and shall duly caution my nose. Fortunately, my name is short: one of those at school regularly burst the banks of various forms with his Chandrika Prasad Choudhury. Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com
[silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
I'm getting a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support reports that minorities have been systematically disenfranchised. Other than the reports in the paper of widespread deletion of muslim names from electoral rolls, I've been been hearing a lot from Christians as well. I've heard of: * Names marked 'deleted' on the rolls. * Names missing (which were present online just a month ago). * Voter Registration attempts being rejected without explanation. Even if the cases are not statistically significant enough prove anything, the very fact that the stories are making the rounds are indicative of the suspicious and mistrustful attitude developing in the community. That's definitely worrying -- many indications are that Indian society is more divided along caste and religious lines now than at any time since independence. *sigh* Time to start moving assets abroad? -- b
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: I'm getting a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support reports that minorities have been systematically disenfranchised. Other than the reports in the paper of widespread deletion of muslim names from electoral rolls, I've been been hearing a lot from Christians as well. I've heard of: * Names marked 'deleted' on the rolls. * Names missing (which were present online just a month ago). * Voter Registration attempts being rejected without explanation. This is true for people belonging to the Hindu community (and probably others) as well. A neighbour, a resident of Bangalore since birth was told his old voter card is invalid and his entire family was asked to re-register as voters. Apparently re-registration as a voter is a process everyone must go through. Why are the old voter cards suddenly invalid? Arent the census data ever collated to reflect changes? Its another matter that the names have spelling errors, typos in the address, the photographs make the person look like a wanted one, and worst the genders get exchanged making the document unusable as an ID proof. For any error rectification, the voter MUST re-apply and go through the registration process again. As one lady (her card said she was Male) mentioned, the contractor (given the job of voter ID cards) must be paid on volume basis as the officials printing and issuing the card on the spot refused to correct the errors when she pointed it out on the PC. Maybe its time we used the RTI to find how the tax-payers money was being (mis)used. -- .
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
. wrote: she was Male) mentioned, the contractor (given the job of voter ID cards) must be paid on volume basis as the officials printing and issuing the card on the spot refused to correct the errors when she pointed it out on the PC. Maybe its time we used the RTI to find how the tax-payers money was being (mis)used. The contractors either did not care about accuracy, or they were so pressed for time that they turned a deaf ear. I would have put my foot down if my gender was wrong in the system. From what I know, the contractors who did the EPIC in karnataka were the same ones who were doing the ration cards. AFAIK, they were abruptly pressed into service the last time the cards were made available potentially causing temporary hires who were hired to make up for the sudden drop in available manpower. Venkat
Re: [silk] Disenfranchised Minorities?
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: I'm getting a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support reports that minorities have been systematically disenfranchised. Other than the reports in the paper of widespread deletion of muslim names from electoral rolls, I've been been hearing a lot from Christians as well. I've heard of: * Names marked 'deleted' on the rolls. * Names missing (which were present online just a month ago). * Voter Registration attempts being rejected without explanation. Even if the cases are not statistically significant enough prove anything, the very fact that the stories are making the rounds are indicative of the suspicious and mistrustful attitude developing in the community. That's definitely worrying -- many indications are that Indian society is more divided along caste and religious lines now than at any time since independence. I think the electoral rolls were messed up for quite a few people. I know of 4 instances (all hindu if that helps) of names being mangled and names being deleted amongst my friends. I think it is more to do with improper process (and incompetent officials) rather than any bias. I have stopped reading mainstream newspapers as all they look for nowadays is a good story - truth be damned. Sad but true. -- Vinayak
