Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On 30 Jan 2011, at 07:49, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: Civil society groups who blow international grant funding on plush conferences are sure a barrel of fun For instance?
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On 30 Jan 2011, at 07:47, underscore listmans...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Ingrid ingrid.srin...@gmail.com wrote: Regardless, the shift in policy on democracy did not go unnoticed by Egyptian civil society and, I'm sure, by the Mubarak regime. the regime, yes -- its a matter of survival. but, i dont think there is even a single protestor who is out there in indignant anger because the americans reduced funding for some civil society groups Absolutely, but choking off the channels that press for democratic reform, social justice etc. leaves people with no avenue but insurrection. And the signal the regime received was that the new US administration cared less about democratic reform than the Bush administration did.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On 1/30/11, Ingrid Srinath ingrid.srin...@gmail.com wrote: the regime, yes -- its a matter of survival. but, i dont think there is even a single protestor who is out there in indignant anger because the americans reduced funding for some civil society groups Absolutely, but choking off the channels that press for democratic reform, social justice etc. leaves people with no avenue but insurrection. And the signal the regime received was that the new US administration cared less about democratic reform than the Bush administration did. I am not disagreeing with you on the above -- what I am trying to say is that these channels did not begin-to-exist / cease-to-exist because of the US cutting funds for civil society groups. All such funds are channeled via USAID ...which does not fund anything remotely smelling of dissidence or having an incendiary agenda. They typically support the powder-puff change-the-world seminar / conference kind of project revolving around themes like : urban poverty, upliftment of women, infant mortality etc [In my part of the world the favorite is : youth empowerment, and FGM ]. They are there not just in Egypt, but in every strategically important 3rd world outpost. No one cares about these programs ...neither a regime worried about policy shift ...or the US government. This sentence is from a USAID audit of their own democracy projects in Egypt in 2008 : the impact of USAid/Egypt's democracy and governance programmes was unnoticeable in indexes describing the country's democratic environment (page 2, link below -- also has a description of a typical seminar run by USAID) http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/africa/egypts-democracy-groups-fear-shift-in-us-policy-will-harm-their-work So, the obama administration decided to do the smart thing : save money and shut down some of these programs. The only ones i think, willing to come and throw stones for this indignation are American commentators on huffington post. More interesting is this foreign policy report -- which i believe appeared in the economist sometime back --- but is available un-gated here : http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2010/10_middle_east_hamid.aspx quote: the hype surrounding the Bush “freedom agenda” – which included the creation of the Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI) and a doubling of National Endowment for Democracy funding – obscured the fundamental reality that American, as well as European, financial assistance has been just as limited as the NGOs and political groups it has tried to support quote: As for political groups or movements, they generally have not received US assistance. Such groups are obviously more controversial as their goals extend well beyond the mandate of NGOs, which are relatively small and focused on more limited objectives. In Egypt, this includes groups such as Kifaya, April 6, the National Association for Change, and the Muslim Brotherhood. None have received U.S. funding.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On 30 Jan 2011, at 18:40, underscore listmans...@gmail.com wrote: On 1/30/11, Ingrid Srinath ingrid.srin...@gmail.com wrote: the regime, yes -- its a matter of survival. but, i dont think there is even a single protestor who is out there in indignant anger because the americans reduced funding for some civil society groups Absolutely, but choking off the channels that press for democratic reform, social justice etc. leaves people with no avenue but insurrection. And the signal the regime received was that the new US administration cared less about democratic reform than the Bush administration did. I am not disagreeing with you on the above -- what I am trying to say is that these channels did not begin-to-exist / cease-to-exist because of the US cutting funds for civil society groups. All such funds are channeled via USAID ...which does not fund anything remotely smelling of dissidence or having an incendiary agenda. They typically support the powder-puff change-the-world seminar / conference kind of project revolving around themes like : urban poverty, upliftment of women, infant mortality etc [In my part of the world the favorite is : youth empowerment, and FGM ]. They are there not just in Egypt, but in every strategically important 3rd world outpost. No one cares about these programs ...neither a regime worried about policy shift ...or the US government. This sentence is from a USAID audit of their own democracy projects in Egypt in 2008 : the impact of USAid/Egypt's democracy and governance programmes was unnoticeable in indexes describing the country's democratic environment (page 2, link below -- also has a description of a typical seminar run by USAID) http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/africa/egypts-democracy-groups-fear-shift-in-us-policy-will-harm-their-work So, the obama administration decided to do the smart thing : save money and shut down some of these programs. The only ones i think, willing to come and throw stones for this indignation are American commentators on huffington post. More interesting is this foreign policy report -- which i believe appeared in the economist sometime back --- but is available un-gated here : http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2010/10_middle_east_hamid.aspx quote: the hype surrounding the Bush “freedom agenda” – which included the creation of the Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI) and a doubling of National Endowment for Democracy funding – obscured the fundamental reality that American, as well as European, financial assistance has been just as limited as the NGOs and political groups it has tried to support quote: As for political groups or movements, they generally have not received US assistance. Such groups are obviously more controversial as their goals extend well beyond the mandate of NGOs, which are relatively small and focused on more limited objectives. In Egypt, this includes groups such as Kifaya, April 6, the National Association for Change, and the Muslim Brotherhood. None have received U.S. funding. In sum, there was a policy change that you believe had no impact. My own conversations with Egyptian activists from a range of organisations suggest otherwise. From small but significant groups operating in a hostile environment, the reactions I heard when the change was implemented were of abandonment and despair.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On 29 Jan 2011, at 08:00, Dave Kumar dave.ku...@gmail.com wrote: I would add that the point about the US's historical support for corrupt/dictatorial regimes in Egypt and elsewhere is well taken, and I agree with it ... but it far predates the Obama administration, and anyone who assumes that this administration could simply change that policy when it came to power fails to appreciate the realities of US politics. That's my $0.02. The Obama administration has, in fact, significantly cut US funding to human rights and democracy groups in Egypt. Obama Administration Cut Funding To Promote Democracy In Egypt ... www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/.../obama-cut-egypt-funding_n_815731.html In its first year, the Obama administration cut funding for democracy and governance programming in Egypt by more than half, from $50 million in 2008 to $20 million in 2009 (Congress later appropriated another $5 million). The level of funding for civil society programs and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) was cut disproportionately, from $32 million to only $7 million. Though funding levels for 2010 are not yet available, they are expected to show an increase to $14 million, says Stephen McInerny, the director of advocacy at the Project on Middle East Democracy. He notes that the Bush administration slashed economic aid to Egypt in the 2009 budget but kept the funding for democracy and governance programs constant, while Obama cut funding to those programs in an effort to make the cuts more proportional and under pressure from the American embassy in Cairo.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
However, as Steven A. Cook of CFR says, all those soldiers “are not there to project power, but to protect the regime.” He calls the Egyptian military “the ultimate instrument of political control.” In other words, all those weapons are bought to be used against Egyptians, not to protect Egypt. This is exactly the sort of situation that fosters non-state terrorism: a disempowered citizenry, kept in check by only the military might of an unaccountable and corrupt dictator backed by a faraway country, watching their future being destroyed one year at a time — all so that that faraway country can have a reliable friend to support political goals the nation opposes. This country profile fits both Saudi Arabia and Egypt, as it has for decades. And, indeed, non-state terrorism has ...And I will say it, Pakistan as well. Blackmail and a suitable sob story can always squeeze money from stupid Gringos - who just have to print more money. Pakistan has got US$ 3 billion a year from 2001, of which 1.5 billion a year goes to the military. apart from coalition support funds. Pakistan's military needs the money to fight India - whose Hindus are killing Muslims in fake encounters and in riots in Gujrat. That is why Pakistanis are united behind ther government and do not revolt. shiv
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
funny that the article focuses only on 'democracy' while ignoring the obvious -- that the main reason the americans have kept quiet and propped up the regime is because of the Islamic Brotherhood. If there were democratic elections in egypt the Islamic Brotherhood would probably be in power. The americans made the same mistake in Somalia when the Islamic Kadhi Courts came to power 5 years ago -- they were the most likely to bring some semblance of order. The americans decided to setup a puppet regime involving criminals and christian ethiopians... The end result now is total anarchy and an epidemic of piracy in the indian ocean. History(and stupidity) repeats itself.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
The Obama administration has, in fact, significantly cut US funding to human rights and democracy groups in Egypt. I think its only a few americans who care about such things. Fact is, without american aid and big brother backing most egyptians would starve. large part of the wheat used for making bread in egypt comes as friendly aid from the americans. The long term sustainability of the country is in some doubt given their dependence on the nile. uganda, ethiopia, south sudan all have plans to place further dams on the nile and its tributaries ...until now a colonial era nile waters treaty and threats from western powers have slowed down most of these plans in favor of the egyptian state.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On 29-Jan-2011, at 11:08 AM, underscore listmans...@gmail.com wrote: The Obama administration has, in fact, significantly cut US funding to human rights and democracy groups in Egypt. I think its only a few americans who care about such things. Fact is, without american aid and big brother backing most egyptians would starve. Regardless, the shift in policy on democracy did not go unnoticed by Egyptian civil society and, I'm sure, by the Mubarak regime.
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Ingrid ingrid.srin...@gmail.com wrote: Regardless, the shift in policy on democracy did not go unnoticed by Egyptian civil society and, I'm sure, by the Mubarak regime. the regime, yes -- its a matter of survival. but, i dont think there is even a single protestor who is out there in indignant anger because the americans reduced funding for some civil society groups
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
Civil society groups who blow international grant funding on plush conferences are sure a barrel of fun --Original Message-- From: underscore Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt Sent: Jan 30, 2011 12:17 On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Ingrid ingrid.srin...@gmail.com wrote: Regardless, the shift in policy on democracy did not go unnoticed by Egyptian civil society and, I'm sure, by the Mubarak regime. the regime, yes -- its a matter of survival. but, i dont think there is even a single protestor who is out there in indignant anger because the americans reduced funding for some civil society groups -- srs (blackberry)
[silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
list.lurker Kragen wrote this piece which is all over my twitter timeline, and I thought I'd mirror it on silk as well, as it's a good overview of the events in Egypt so far. Additional thoughts, folks? Udhay http://canonical.org/~kragen/egypt-massacre-sotu.html Why Egypt’s popular rebellion is the greatest historical event in a decade, and how Barack Obama missed the boat. [1]áíÓ åäÇß ÌíÔ ÃÞæí ãä ÝßÑÉ ÍÇä æÞÊåÇ (Above: No army is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.) I’m writing this on January 28th, 2011, at 11:53 AM Cairo time, although I’m an ocean away from Cairo. But, as someone wrote the other day on Twitter, yesterday, we were all Tunisian; today, we are all Egyptian, and tomorrow, we will all be free. So today I am writing this on Cairo time. Three days ago, I read Barack Obama’s [2]State of the Union address. He delivered it on the same day that the [3]#Jan25 protests began in Egypt. I was dismayed that he didn’t mention the protests at all, because they’re more important than almost everything he did mention. This essay is an attempt to explain why they are so important, why Obama ignored them, and what the possible results of that choice could be. What Egypt is like [4][View_from_Cairo_Tower_31march2007_small.jpg] For readers who don’t know much about Egypt, like most Americans, here’s my attempt to sum up a country of 80 million people in three minutes. Egypt is not a republic, any more than the People’s Republic of China is. Egypt is a brutal dictatorship, governed by the same dictator since 1981, 29 of those years under state-of-emergency regulations. That dictator, Hosni Mubarak, was the vice-president of the previous dictator, Anwar Sadat, who in turn was the vice-president of the dictator before him, Gamal Abdel Nasser, who had held absolute power since 1956. Egypt has been under one-party rule since 1952, and although the ruling party has changed its name several times, it has never yielded its power. Egypt has gradually declined in influence and quality of life throughout Mubarak’s reign. Some opposition parties are now formally allowed. They currently hold 3% of the Egyptian parliament. All influential opposition parties are banned, and the press is heavily censored. Mohamed ElBaradei, an Egyptian who won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work fighting nuclear proliferation, moved to Vienna so that he can find reporters willing to talk to him. Egypt is desperately poor. The majority of the country depends on the bread dole for survival. Egypt is one of the countries where the US would ship prisoners to have them beaten, electrocuted, and raped by the Egyptian police for years, as a means of interrogation. ([5]Abu Omar and [6]Ahmed Osman Saleh are two of the best-known cases.) Indeed, its reputation for torture was so well established that it was the first US ally selected for this “[7]extraordinary rendition” program. The Egyptian police are famous for their lack of controls. Last year, [8]Khaled Said was sitting in an internet café; a couple of policemen came in and demanded to see everyone’s ID, which is against Egyptian law. He refused, so they dragged him outside, beat him to death, and dumped his body in the street. It’s also one of the top recipients of US aid in the world, much of which is earmarked for the security forces — the same security forces who are currently beating journalists bloody and shooting protestors with US-made tear gas, birdshot, and now bullets. Much of Egypt’s military, the tenth largest in the world and the largest in Africa, is actually [9]paid for by the US. Egypt produces US-designed armaments such as the M1 Abrams tank under license. Without the political and financial support of the US, it is generally believed in Egypt that the current dictatorship would have fallen decades ago. As [10]Shahi Hamid said, “If the army ever decides to shoot into a crowd of unarmed protestors, it will be shooting with hardware provided by the United States.” However, as Steven A. Cook of CFR says, all those soldiers “are not there to project power, but to protect the regime.” He calls the Egyptian military “the ultimate instrument of political control.” In other words, all those weapons are bought to be used against Egyptians, not to protect Egypt. This is exactly the sort of situation that fosters non-state terrorism: a disempowered citizenry, kept in check by only the military might of an unaccountable and corrupt dictator backed by a faraway country, watching their future being destroyed one year at a time — all so that that faraway country can have a reliable friend to support political goals the nation opposes. This country profile fits both Saudi Arabia and Egypt, as it has for decades. And,
Re: [silk] Kragen's essay on Egypt
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: list.lurker Kragen wrote this piece which is all over my twitter timeline, and I thought I'd mirror it on silk as well, as it's a good overview of the events in Egypt so far. Additional thoughts, folks? Udhay http://canonical.org/~kragen/egypt-massacre-sotu.htmlhttp://canonical.org/%7Ekragen/egypt-massacre-sotu.html I thought that was an excellent overview of the events in Egypt, but I disagree as to the take on the Obama administration's approach. The Obama administration's approach on issues -- both domestic and foreign -- is to favor results over the desire to appear righteous and/or take credit. I think the administration's instinct is that any obvious public support for the demonstrators on its part will be viewed as foreign meddling, and runs the risk of turning the discussion into whether what is happening in Egypt is being instigated from abroad rather than something that is happening organically -- and I think their instinct is correct. (The administration took a similar approach with the Green movement in Iran.) This is not to say that every statement coming from the administration is necessarily the smartest -- Biden's statement in particular seemed to me to be off -- but I think that generally speaking, they are playing the situation correctly. Notice also their increasing criticism of the Mubarak regime in the last 24 hours or so, focusing on the violence and the shutting off of Internet access rather than on an ultimate preferred outcome. I would add that the point about the US's historical support for corrupt/dictatorial regimes in Egypt and elsewhere is well taken, and I agree with it ... but it far predates the Obama administration, and anyone who assumes that this administration could simply change that policy when it came to power fails to appreciate the realities of US politics. That's my $0.02.
