Re: CSIt's probably time...
Yes David, it does seem to be a matter or semantics. Like I said no where does Goodman and Gilman, in their standard reference The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics, refer to an agent as virucidal. The term is just not used in reference to anti-viral agents. Period. When I said I stand by my statement it was of course with the thought in mind that the popular use of the word kill does not technically apply to viruses. Yet I am communicating with, for the most part, non-technical types, or those accustomed to speaking in common every day language. Of course I realize that we are splitting hairs on this whole topic. If it works, it works. If it does not we move on to something else. My experience is that it works for me. And that it is supported by the scientific literature. Why some people are hung up on proof that is not required of any other anti-viral agent is beyond me. And why I must be the one to demonstrate that their nomenclature is not accurate, their demands excessive and their attitudes less than conducive to discussion is beyond me. Most interestested in this question would have done an exhaustive literature search and discovered for themselves the issue of semantics that this whole discussion hinges on. Garnet On Fri, 2004-05-21 at 20:14, David Bearrow wrote: At 11:43 AM 5/21/04, you wrote: I stated that DMSO kills viruses. I stand by that statement. Garnet Since a virus technically is not alive it cannot be killed. The way I see viri is that they are messed up genetic programs. The cell they reprogram is alive but the virus is not. Sorry for the semantics. :) David Bearrow -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSIt's probably time...
1800jeffers.com they have DMSO in 16 oz bottles, roll ons and a gel.. pet supplies, of course... - Original Message - From: marmar...@aol.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 12:33 AM Subject: Re: CSIt's probably time... In a message dated 5/21/04 4:15:48 PM Central Daylight Time, ross.cr...@ns.sympatico.ca writes: used the roll on directly, as soon as i felt the pain Used the *roll on* what? DMSO? Comes in a roll on? MA
Re: CSIt's probably time...
In a message dated 5/21/04 10:55:37 PM Central Daylight Time, h...@sbcglobal.net writes: Used the *roll on* what? DMSO? Comes in a roll on? MA Hi, Have a look here. A HREF=http://www.dmso.com/products.htm;http://www.dmso.com/products.htm/A Wow -- thanks Hank. MA
Re: CSIt's probably time...
In a message dated 5/22/04 6:09:12 AM Central Daylight Time, ross.cr...@ns.sympatico.ca writes: 1800jeffers.com they have DMSO in 16 oz bottles, roll ons and a gel.. pet supplies, of course... Kewl -- thanks Craig. MA
Re: CSIt's probably time...
The double blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study is the gold standard of the scientific medical world. It was purposely designed to eliminate experience, which in large part is where natural healing functions including experimentation and testing of CS, and other natural healing modalities, etc. Real science deals in facts. Healing is not a fact. Healing is a process, an event that lies within each of us and it is a paradox. Healing deals with experience (anecdote). Since a healing anecdote does not comply with the gold standard of medical science, it is rejected. This is why true healing and medical science will always be at odds with one another. Are we reaching the 100th Monkey syndrome, when the knowledge becomes known to so many through experience that this discussion will move into the 'old wives category' and remain invalidated by the limitations of science? The home made chicken soup myth was finally proven regardless of the suggestions we should take medications. Too many of us know through experience that viruses, even big ones, appear to disappear with DMSO. Christine thebodytalkcli...@telus.net http://www.bodytalksystem.com From: Garnet garnetri...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: CSIt's probably time... On Fri, 2004-05-21 at 05:50, M. G. Devour wrote: -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSIt's probably time...
... for the combatants to return to their corners, lick their wounds, and maybe actually crack a book or visit the library -- or make proper use of Google. I don't own a copy of Walker's book, though I think it was one of the ones I read a year or two back (from the library) when I was getting familiar with DMSO. So, does the book give actual journal references to back up the claims? Anybody actually *looked* to see? Called them up on Medline or ordered the journals up via inter-library loan? It might require some work, since most of the good stuff is likely to date from before the FDA got stupid about it. Apart from that, I expect that most of us have outgrown our insistence on double-blind controlled studies on statistically significant populations. If that were the only trustworthy standard we might as well close down this list right now and give up on colloidal silver... 'Cause there just aren't many people in the world willing to shell out many millions of dollars to prove that CS does what we all know that it does. Given the way DMSO has been treated by our government, it would hardly surprise me that few large scale studies have been done in this country over the last 40 years since the FDA squashed it. I do wonder about activity in other countries, however... Lastly, I'd appreciate it if you folks would keep your attitudes and keyboards in check. The resentments you're expressing seems to have too much to do with personal dislike and too little with our mission of seeing people get help for what ails them. You don't have to like each other. You do have to treat each other with respect on this list. That goes of *all* of you, Nina, Stuff, Garnet, and whomever else I've forgotten to mention. Be well, Mike Devour silver-list owner [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSIt's probably time...
On Fri, 2004-05-21 at 05:50, M. G. Devour wrote: I don't own a copy of Walker's book, though I think it was one of the ones I read a year or two back (from the library) when I was getting familiar with DMSO. So, does the book give actual journal references to back up the claims? Anybody actually *looked* to see? Called them up on Medline or ordered the journals up via inter-library loan? It might require some work, since most of the good stuff is likely to date from before the FDA got stupid about it. Yes it does have actual journal references for many of the reports. He does not exclude reports by private correspondance due to the nature of DMSO research many clinicians were reluctant to attach their names to the results and stated the anecdotal nature of the reports from the outset. I have checked on line sources such as Medline and Pub Med. There are articles listed but no abstracts. I have not gone to the medical library or ordered these journal articles yet. I am an hour away from that particlular library and have not had a day to look up journal citations in many months. Rest assured I will get to it, probably in the very near future and will post what I find. Apart from that, I expect that most of us have outgrown our insistence on double-blind controlled studies on statistically significant populations. If that were the only trustworthy standard we might as well close down this list right now and give up on colloidal silver... 'Cause there just aren't many people in the world willing to shell out many millions of dollars to prove that CS does what we all know that it does. While I have respect for double blind studies I am much more inclined to put the most faith in my own personal experience. Generally I start there and then look for validation in others experiences and in journal articles. However the journal articles often lag behind the personal experiences by many years and in some cases hundreds of years. Strictly speaking science is observation and requires no double blind studies. If it did we would be tossing thousands of accepted medical precepts accumulated over centuries of observation. Given the way DMSO has been treated by our government, it would hardly surprise me that few large scale studies have been done in this country over the last 40 years since the FDA squashed it. I do wonder about activity in other countries, however... Part of the problem with viral studies is in defining dead and alive. In rereading Goodman and Gilman's section on anti-viral agents in becomes clear that this line is not clear when it comes to viruses. Terms used in reference to viral affects are not dead or kill, they are inhibit, uncoat, intereferes with viral replication through affects on the RNA or DNA processes and structures and similar descriptions of activity. It becomes clear that the issue of virucidal as regards any anti-viral agent is as much a matter of semantics and definition of terms as it is of actual demonstration of effects. DMSO is known to uncoat viruses. It is also known to stop viral symptoms. It would appear this is as close as anyone is going to get in defining its action against virues. And is a widely accepted level of knowledge from which to go forth with therapeutic applications in the absence of toxicity. DMSO has zero toxicity in therapeutic applications and indeed requires inhalation of vapors upon boiling to some 370* or consumption of 40,000 times the therapeutic dose, a highly unlikely occurence. It has one of the safest therapeutic indexes (Therapeutic Dose divided by the Lethal Dose in 50%) of any agent out there. Stedman's Medical Dictionary 22nd Ed defines virucidal and viricidal as destructive to a virus. With this definition in mind as well as the terminology used by the standard in Clinical Therapeutics, Goodman and Gilman, I believe the issue of discussing DMSO's ability to kill viruses in vivo (in the body) is hampered by the current concepts of alive or dead formed from knowledge of other life forms. I would also remind those with high levels of curiosity as to the mechansims of action of DMSO that many agents are still a mystery to us. That does not stop use from using them for situations where we get positive results. I stated that DMSO kills viruses. I stand by that statement. Garnet -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSIt's probably time...
i just have to butt in and say, Garnet, well done the trolls have provoked you to show your best thinking today, i neutralized an otherwise week long painful and itching lump, from my first black fly bite of the yearusually my worst... used the roll on directly, as soon as i felt the pain 10 minutes later...no pain, big bump, and no rash, even though it was full strength... 30 min later bump gone... i did another bite afterward with a CS/DMSO 50/50 mix and it's gone too... what a great list.(s) While I have respect for double blind studies I am much more inclined to put the most faith in my own personal experience. Generally I start there and then look for validation in others experiences and in journal articles. However the journal articles often lag behind the personal experiences by many years and in some cases hundreds of years. Strictly speaking science is observation and requires no double blind studies. If it did we would be tossing thousands of accepted medical precepts accumulated over centuries of observation. Part of the problem with viral studies is in defining dead and alive. In rereading Goodman and Gilman's section on anti-viral agents in becomes clear that this line is not clear when it comes to viruses. Terms used in reference to viral affects are not dead or kill, they are inhibit, uncoat, intereferes with viral replication through affects on the RNA or DNA processes and structures and similar descriptions of activity. It becomes clear that the issue of virucidal as regards any anti-viral agent is as much a matter of semantics and definition of terms as it is of actual demonstration of effects. DMSO is known to uncoat viruses. It is also known to stop viral symptoms. It would appear this is as close as anyone is going to get in defining its action against virues. And is a widely accepted level of knowledge from which to go forth with therapeutic applications in the absence of toxicity. DMSO has zero toxicity in therapeutic applications and indeed requires inhalation of vapors upon boiling to some 370* or consumption of 40,000 times the therapeutic dose, a highly unlikely occurence. It has one of the safest therapeutic indexes (Therapeutic Dose divided by the Lethal Dose in 50%) of any agent out there. Stedman's Medical Dictionary 22nd Ed defines virucidal and viricidal as destructive to a virus. With this definition in mind as well as the terminology used by the standard in Clinical Therapeutics, Goodman and Gilman, I believe the issue of discussing DMSO's ability to kill viruses in vivo (in the body) is hampered by the current concepts of alive or dead formed from knowledge of other life forms. I would also remind those with high levels of curiosity as to the mechansims of action of DMSO that many agents are still a mystery to us. That does not stop use from using them for situations where we get positive results. I stated that DMSO kills viruses. I stand by that statement. Garnet -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSIt's probably time...
At 11:43 AM 5/21/04, you wrote: I stated that DMSO kills viruses. I stand by that statement. Garnet Since a virus technically is not alive it cannot be killed. The way I see viri is that they are messed up genetic programs. The cell they reprogram is alive but the virus is not. Sorry for the semantics. :) David Bearrow -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSIt's probably time...
In a message dated 5/21/04 4:15:48 PM Central Daylight Time, ross.cr...@ns.sympatico.ca writes: used the roll on directly, as soon as i felt the pain Used the *roll on* what? DMSO? Comes in a roll on? MA
Re: CSIt's probably time...
Used the *roll on* what? DMSO? Comes in a roll on? MA Hi, Have a look here. http://www.dmso.com/products.htm Sincerely Yours, Hank http://hdka.com http://hdka.com/mena/index.html http://hdka.com/cts/menact.html http://hdka.stormpages.com/indexf.html http://69.28.73.17/todaysshow/todaysshow.html - Original Message - From: marmar...@aol.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 10:33 PM Subject: Re: CSIt's probably time... In a message dated 5/21/04 4:15:48 PM Central Daylight Time, ross.cr...@ns.sympatico.ca writes: used the roll on directly, as soon as i felt the pain Used the *roll on* what? DMSO? Comes in a roll on? MA --- Hank's outgoing mail is certified as Virus Free as can be. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/04
