Re: CSSuggestions for Baby?
I'm sure the pro's will chime in on the dosage for the CS...but if I were you I would do the research on the vaccines...they are not good for anyone. Debbie From: Valerie valq22...@yahoo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 12:22 PM Subject: CSSuggestions for Baby? Can anyone tell me what a SAFE amount to give a 1-year old baby? Both as an antibiotic AND for keeping up with his health. I have many concerns about him at the moment and he is supposed to go for a wellness visit in a couple of weeks at which time he will be brought up to date with his late vaccines. His twin sister died at 7 months and I have my suspicions about a possible connection. But since he has been VERY raspy lately, I am particularly concerned and am hoping to find solutions to bring his health more up to date before this wellness visit! Thanks for any help you can provide. Valerie
Re: CSSuggestions for Baby?
My advice is not professional, rather personal opinion on misc readings. I strongly do not recommend you give this to your baby not because it will be bad, but because your baby is developing his/her inmune system and defense for the rest of his life. Alex On 12/06/2012 11:46 AM, Deborah Gerard wrote: I'm sure the pro's will chime in on the dosage for the CS...but if I were you I would do the research on the vaccines...they are not good for anyone. Debbie *From:* Valerie valq22...@yahoo.com *To:* silver-list@eskimo.com *Sent:* Thursday, December 6, 2012 12:22 PM *Subject:* CSSuggestions for Baby? Can anyone tell me what a SAFE amount to give a 1-year old baby? Both as an antibiotic AND for keeping up with his health. I have many concerns about him at the moment and he is supposed to go for a wellness visit in a couple of weeks at which time he will be brought up to date with his late vaccines. His twin sister died at 7 months and I have my suspicions about a possible connection. But since he has been VERY raspy lately, I am particularly concerned and am hoping to find solutions to bring his health more up to date before this wellness visit! Thanks for any help you can provide. Valerie
Re: CSSuggestions for Baby?
Please, please, please do some research on vaccinations. Nuff siad here. On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Valerie valq22...@yahoo.com wrote: Can anyone tell me what a SAFE amount to give a 1-year old baby? Both as an antibiotic AND for keeping up with his health. I have many concerns about him at the moment and he is supposed to go for a wellness visit in a couple of weeks at which time he will be brought up to date with his late vaccines. His twin sister died at 7 months and I have my suspicions about a possible connection. But since he has been VERY raspy lately, I am particularly concerned and am hoping to find solutions to bring his health more up to date before this wellness visit! Thanks for any help you can provide. Valerie
Re: CSSuggestions for Baby?VALERIE
I second that I was the only RN who refused to give vaccines and never lost her job // Jane - Original Message - From: vicki hood To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 1:54 PM Subject: Fw: CSSuggestions for Baby?VALERIE Valerie, Begging you to please not vaccinate. I lost my step grandson (3months old) 3 days after a vaccine. When you read ingredients mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, dried sheeps blood, animal pus, MSG and other disgusting cross species ingredients, think how this will destroy the immune system. My almost stepson visited the coroner and was told to get out of her face. Parent support group for SIDS parents (10 sets of parents) . Every one of those babies had a vaccine no more than 5 days before they died. Not one baby reached any statistics. yOU CANNOT BE FORCED TO VACCiNATE. Nothing in the constitution that says government can put a foeign substance in your body. Follow the money train. Big pharma is beyond anything immaginable. Much written by doctors who have delved into the question written in vaclib.org-forms available to opt out if you want to present this to school. Good reading but google anti vaccine sites. PS studied this many years as i have MS from a vaccine in 1972-3 maybe. I have stayed away from big pharma as i know better now. I will do anti-biotics if absolutely necessary. Get a broken bone fixed or just absolutes. --You lost your babies twin and suspect vaccine? Google other mothers who have lost their babies from a vaccine. Know someone with an auto immune disease? ask if onset was right after a vaccine. That's cancers, Lupus, MS, arthritus, flu, encephalitus and many others. You could lose your other child. Tell them to put that needle where the sun don't shine. Not one vaccine. Read, discuss and don't believe in the money hungry big pharma. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5441 - Release Date: 12/06/12
RE: CSsuggestions
I have used Silver Biotics silver tetroxide many times with great success and safety. Silver tetroxide is a more active form of ionic silver so you use less of it and it seems to work a bit faster. Any good ionic silver solution should work well though. Remember that it is the silver ions that do the work of killing bugs, particulate silver must be turned into ions before it can work. The theory is it happens in the body. Good luck. Bob _ From: Gary Hilt [mailto:sobertogod1n...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 10:31 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSsuggestions I HAVE USED SOV.SILVER AND FOUND IT VERY USEFUL AND SAAFE. I BREATHE IT , DRINK IT , PUT IN MY EYE ALTHO NOW WE MAKE OUR OWN. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:55 AM, finplan65 finpla...@yahoo.com wrote: As a newbie to this health area I need some advice from those more knowledgeable than myself..Could someone please tell me if the two retail bought brands, Sovereign Silver and American Biotech (Silver Biotics) can be recommended as safe and effective? If not are there any retail brands that can be recommended? Thank You -- Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Gary Lennie
Re: CSsuggestions
Fin.. there is a member on this site who sells CS. I had used commercial brands of CS for years and years but the efficacy of this member's CS is remarkable. His website is www.quailwoodherbal.com. His prices are comparable and he is availabe by phone or email (info on website) if you have any questions. Lola H. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:55 AM, finplan65 finpla...@yahoo.com wrote: *As a newbie to this health area I need some advice from those more knowledgeable than myself..Could someone please tell me if the two retail bought brands, Sovereign Silver and American Biotech (Silver Biotics) can be recommended as safe and effective? If not are there *any *retail brands that can be recommended? Thank You* **
Re: CSsuggestions
GOOGLE - ** COLLOIDAL MASTER ** THE BEST IN THE WORLD. Tel Tofflemire From: Gary Hilt sobertogod1n...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 11:30 PM Subject: Re: CSsuggestions I HAVE USED SOV.SILVER AND FOUND IT VERY USEFUL AND SAAFE. I BREATHE IT , DRINK IT , PUT IN MY EYE ALTHO NOW WE MAKE OUR OWN. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:55 AM, finplan65 finpla...@yahoo.com wrote: As a newbie to this health area I need some advice from those more knowledgeable than myself..Could someone please tell me if the two retail bought brands, Sovereign Silver and American Biotech (Silver Biotics) can be recommended as safe and effective? If not are there any retail brands that can be recommended? Thank You -- Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Gary Lennie
Re: CSsuggestions
I HAVE USED SOV.SILVER AND FOUND IT VERY USEFUL AND SAAFE. I BREATHE IT , DRINK IT , PUT IN MY EYE ALTHO NOW WE MAKE OUR OWN. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:55 AM, finplan65 finpla...@yahoo.com wrote: *As a newbie to this health area I need some advice from those more knowledgeable than myself..Could someone please tell me if the two retail bought brands, Sovereign Silver and American Biotech (Silver Biotics) can be recommended as safe and effective? If not are there *any *retail brands that can be recommended? Thank You* ** -- Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Gary Lennie
Re: CSSuggestions for what to do if you decline the vaccine
If all else fails just say you are allergic to eggs, that will do it!! Marshalee On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Hanneke bloss...@internode.on.net wrote: *What to do if you Plan to Decline the Swine Flu Vaccine: • Ask your State Attorney General, Legislator or Governor whether your state law exemptions from vaccine programs (medical, religious, philosophical) apply during a declared pandemic or health e...mergency. • If exemptions are available, contact your health care or school professionals for forms to fill out giving notice that you or your family members are exempt and are declining the vaccines and/or treatments. • Find out if swine flu or pandemic vaccines will be required for students and staff in order to attend public schools. • Pursuant to Federal Law (NVICP 1986), demand that your vaccine provider give you a benefit and risk vaccine information statement prior to vaccination. They must obtain your written consent before administration. • Find out if exposed persons have the right to self-quarantine at home.* -- avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090917-0, 17/09/2009 Tested on: 18/09/2009 7:34:33 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
Re: CSSuggestions for what to do if you decline the vaccine
Marshalee, I hope so because I am very allergic to eggs. Bob - Original Message - From: Marshalee Hallett To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:04 PM Subject: Re: CSSuggestions for what to do if you decline the vaccine If all else fails just say you are allergic to eggs, that will do it!! Marshalee On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Hanneke bloss...@internode.on.net wrote: What to do if you Plan to Decline the Swine Flu Vaccine: • Ask your State Attorney General, Legislator or Governor whether your state law exemptions from vaccine programs (medical, religious, philosophical) apply during a declared pandemic or health e...mergency. • If exemptions are available, contact your health care or school professionals for forms to fill out giving notice that you or your family members are exempt and are declining the vaccines and/or treatments. • Find out if swine flu or pandemic vaccines will be required for students and staff in order to attend public schools. • Pursuant to Federal Law (NVICP 1986), demand that your vaccine provider give you a benefit and risk vaccine information statement prior to vaccination. They must obtain your written consent before administration. • Find out if exposed persons have the right to self-quarantine at home. -- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090917-0, 17/09/2009 Tested on: 18/09/2009 7:34:33 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
RE: CSsuggestions for shannon and question aabout silver protein IV
No, I've never been treated for candida albicans, unless you mean just for yeast infections. When I have yeast infections I have to take more than one diflucan. But I haven't had a yeast infection in awhile. From: zeb caffe jamaki...@yahoo.com Reply-To: silver-list@eskimo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSsuggestions for shannon and question aabout silver protein IV Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Shannon, I was wondering if you have ever been treated for candida albicans? Also, do a search on lyme disease.These are two illnesses that can sometimes cause symptoms similar to yours.If you have any questions, please feel free to email me. I have had alot of experince with both. Does anyone have any information on the health benefits and or safety of silver protein IVs? Two of my friends are recieving these from different health care practioners and I am concerned. They are also but dont seem to get answers that give them confidence in this method of treatments. Also, has anyone on this forum heard about a product called silver formula oral/topical? Again, we are talking about a silver protein product with msm. It is put out by vitamin research who I have found to be very reputable. Thanks - Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSsuggestions for shannon and question aabout silver protein IV
I think zeb was talking about systenic Candida Albicans, not just vaginal yeast. This is yeast in the digestive tract, ears, blood, etc. I don't think one diflucan would be acire unless you have drastically changed your eating habits as well. When fighting systemic yeast, sugar must be eliminated in all forms. Fermented foods and all high glycemic carbohydrates should be eliminated as well. it takes months or even years to successful fight Candida. Most allopathic Doctors think that systemic yeast is crap and wont even discuss it. Check out this website: http://www.candidadiet.com/therapist/candida_self_assessment_form.pdf http://www.curezone.com/diseases/candida/ G Murray MATTHEW ARNOLD wrote: No, I've never been treated for candida albicans, unless you mean just for yeast infections. When I have yeast infections I have to take more than one diflucan. But I haven't had a yeast infection in awhile. From: zeb caffe jamaki...@yahoo.com Reply-To: silver-list@eskimo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSsuggestions for shannon and question aabout silver protein IV Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Shannon, I was wondering if you have ever been treated for candida albicans? Also, do a search on lyme disease.These are two illnesses that can sometimes cause symptoms similar to yours.If you have any questions, please feel free to email me. I have had alot of experince with both. Does anyone have any information on the health benefits and or safety of silver protein IVs? Two of my friends are recieving these from different health care practioners and I am concerned. They are also but dont seem to get answers that give them confidence in this method of treatments. Also, has anyone on this forum heard about a product called silver formula oral/topical? Again, we are talking about a silver protein product with msm. It is put out by vitamin research who I have found to be very reputable. Thanks -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSSuggestions? Abdominal Pain on Right Side
Appendicitis? Judy Down Maine -Original Message- From: Raine [mailto:rainelov...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:18 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSSuggestions? Abdominal Pain on Right Side Beginning last night and through this morning I have had acute abdominal pain located on the upper right side accompanied with some major bloating. Last night was very painful in general, I experienced some nausea, and I was so bloated I could've passed for a 6-7 month pregnant woman! Today it only hurts if I move or tense my muscles (pain radiates down into my hip) with much less bloating. I've never had anything like this before. In doing some reading I'm lead to suspect several things; a) pancreatitis (my mom has this and it can be hereditary) b) gall bladder stones (my dad had his gallbladder removed a few years ago) c) a twisted uterine cyst (I've had cysts for many many years) d) misalignment of my spine (my back has been out for weeks) Anyone have an experience with something like this? Have any helpful websites where I can do some more reading? I'm looking for anything that will help at all. Thanks, Raine -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 08/29/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 08/29/2005
Re: CSSuggestions? Abdominal Pain on Right Side
Hi, Raine, My sister was able to diagnose a mitral valve prolapse before the doctors were by using http://www.webmd.com/ You may want to consider going in for a check up just in case it's serious. Take care, Cindy -- Original message -- Beginning last night and through this morning I have had acute abdominal pain located on the upper right side accompanied with some major bloating. Last night was very painful in general, I experienced some nausea, and I was so bloated I could've passed for a 6-7 month pregnant woman! Today it only hurts if I move or tense my muscles (pain radiates down into my hip) with much less bloating. I've never had anything like this before. In doing some reading I'm lead to suspect several things; a) pancreatitis (my mom has this and it can be hereditary) b) gall bladder stones (my dad had his gallbladder removed a few years ago) c) a twisted uterine cyst (I've had cysts for many many years) d) misalignment of my spine (my back has been out for weeks) Anyone have an experience with something like this? Have any helpful websites where I can do some more reading? I'm looking for anything that will help at all. Thanks, Raine -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: CSSuggestions for my Label
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:32:23 -0700 (PDT), silversw...@yahoo.com silversw...@yahoo.com wrote: Constant Voltage Colloidal Silver Ingredients: 20 PPM . fine silver (particle size .01--.005 micrions) Seems to me that if this claim is on the label, you'd better be able to back it up with an assay. Chuck If it's not on fire, it's a software problem . -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. Instructions for unsubscribing may be found at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSsuggestions please
Connie, I would continue with the CS/DMSO soaked bandage. CK - Original Message - From: Connie wufn...@stargate.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: CSsuggestions please | Humorous Dogs Stationery from StationeryCentral | | I have used Old Bob's suggestions | anyone else, before I give in to Augmentin, again? | | Got a cat bite, Sept. 9. | Superficial wound healed quickly(with CS/DMSO) | | 2 1/2 weeks later, enflamed, swollen, very sore | (the bite at the first knuckle of the hand- of the index finger) | | week later, saw a doc, put on Augmentin. | | 4 days later saw hand specialistsome improvement in the movement of the | hand/finger, less paincontinued Augmentin the 10 day course. | Hand doc warned it might take 2 or 3 courses of Augmentin. | | 1 week after ending the antibioticpain, enflamed, decreased ROM, | swelling. | I begain drinking 8-12 ozs. a day of CS. | Ole Bob suggested holding it in my mouth to absorb | | Turned the process into about an hour routine. | | 2 weeks laterno real change...remains very painful, enflamed, swollen. | | I WILL NOT INJECT MYSELF!! | | Am I doomed to Augmentin again? | | Thanks, | Connie | | | | -- | The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. | | To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: | silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com | with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. | | To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com | Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html | List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com | |
Re: CSsuggestions please
I WILL NOT INJECT MYSELF!! Am I doomed to Augmentin again? Hi Connie ~ I hear what you are saying! Not good choices! I would try making a poultice. Things to consider would be: For inflammation: witch hazel, apple cider vinegar, comfrey, plantain For infection: raw garlic, tea tree oil, CS, oregano oil I'm sure there are other things, but I'd drop the essential oil(s) on the area, if using raw garlic, I'd chop it good and mix it with some water or anti-inflammatory herbs or vinegar and place a piece of gauze between my hand and the garlic as it might irritate the skin. Wrap it up with 3m vet wrap or bandage of some sort or even surgical glove. Try it overnight and see how it feels in the morning. Maybe some additional ester C, echinacea, vit. A E, to help healing and boost the immune system. Raw garlic if you can consume it. Catnip tea is supposed to be good for pain. Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Hope it gets better soon. Sounds painful. Just the initial cat bite surely didn't feel too good! Julie Critters -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSSuggestions needed
I am assuming thrombosis has been ruled out? James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com -Original Message- From: Vilik Rapheles [SMTP:vi...@peak.org] Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 1:47 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:CSSuggestions needed Would appreciate any ideas on what is going on with my friend and what might be tried. Mary, age 54, 5'5, over 200 lbs. Back of one knee, just above, swollen and thickened. Same with ankle. Whole lower leg tight like full of liquid. Red rash on ankle when wears sock. Pain. Ultrasound showed nothing. Doctor then noticed feet are cracked and some athletes foot present. Thought infection might have gone up leg. Prescribed an antibiotic. (Yes, I suggested an antifungal...doc said go by trial and error, antibiotic would show results fast if it was bacterial...) Also prescribed 9 asprin a day. Sounds like a good candidate for silver I know...but I am hesitant to push as this person is most comfortable in the medical system. Do not want to present my ideas strongly unless I feel confident. Has anyone ever had anything like this or heard of anything like it? Thank you! -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSSuggestions needed
Dear Vilik. Our research on similar circumstances indicates there are myriad things that could be the primary complication. One procedure that aids nearly all lower extremity circulation insufficiencies, among our research volunteers, is elevating the feet to a point higher than the hips for 3o to 6o minutes at a time. If I were guessing (and that is very dangerous) varicosities would be a prime suspect. If the swelling is repetitive, we have found in our experimental researches with primates, that the vein valves are mal-functioningalmost always. Her physician has the means to determine thisif he is so inclined. I believe James' suggestion regarding thrombosis is a quite valid observation. It has been our experience (from among our volunteer population) that weak vessel walls are quite common in obese individuals.especially beyond 50 years. We have elicited, sometimes, marked relief in pain among aged primates, using 60% to 70% DMSO in a topical modality. Our experimental researches have revealed that ANY non-toxic protocol that results in improved peripheral circulation to the extremities (especially the lower limbs) is of very pronounced valueregardless of accompanying protocols. Unless this person has a very caring physician and powerful supporting insurance, isolating the real cause could be difficult. Please do remember, we are a research organization and do not practice any form of medicine, give any type of medical advice or make ANY recommendations for actionfor other people. We do relate our experimental research resultson occasion. Sincerely. Brooks Bradley. Vilik Rapheles wrote: Would appreciate any ideas on what is going on with my friend and what might be tried. Mary, age 54, 5'5, over 200 lbs. Back of one knee, just above, swollen and thickened. Same with ankle. Whole lower leg tight like full of liquid. Red rash on ankle when wears sock. Pain. Ultrasound showed nothing. Doctor then noticed feet are cracked and some athletes foot present. Thought infection might have gone up leg. Prescribed an antibiotic. (Yes, I suggested an antifungal...doc said go by trial and error, antibiotic would show results fast if it was bacterial...) Also prescribed 9 asprin a day. Sounds like a good candidate for silver I know...but I am hesitant to push as this person is most comfortable in the medical system. Do not want to present my ideas strongly unless I feel confident. Has anyone ever had anything like this or heard of anything like it? Thank you! -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
