Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
Did I remember wrong in that I thought I had seen something from MRC in the past where he said he had managed to get phase IV for TOPS-20 running on a KS? MRC may well have reconstructed a V5 monitor for the KS from the sources, but that's not DEC product. And unless he did a lot of work, it would have been an interesting toy, but not product quality. Support for TOPS-20 on the KS ended with V4.1 (Phase III). The most pervasive changes in Phase-IV were a consequence of supporting broadcast media. DECnet Phase IV was initially developed on a KS with a 3-Com ethernet card, as the DEUNA took too many slots, and the KLNIA wasn't ready. (The DECnet, LAT and SCA modules were ported to TOPS-10; some of the TOPS-10 changes went back into the DECnet group's sources.) As the DECnet code grew, more modules were moved into extended sections, including the SCA (CI) and cluster drivers. It was barely possible to boot V5 on the KS if you cut back on a lot of configuration parameters, but DEC never shipped it because there wasn't enough exec address space left over (or resources) for a reasonably configured/responsive system. It was held together to support DECnet development for quite a while, but over time the dependencies on extended addressing grew. Once the KLNIA was stable, the DECnet group abandoned the KS, as did the monitor group. TOPS-20 development decided to stabilize the KS at 4.1 rather than invest in making 5.0 production quality on the KS. Since support was in another group, they didn't bear the costs. A few people in the support group had 5.1 running on the KS as a support tool (didn't want to get rid of their KS system, as it was a lot cheaper in floor space, power, and maintenance than buying/running another KL.) But that was scaled-down & not product quality. I don't recall them succeeding (or even putting much effort) at later versions of TOPS-20. The leftover tracks in the sources would probably be the basis of MRC's work. I made a different call for TOPS-10. I updated the KS microcode to support the version of KL paging that TOPS-10 used (but still a single section), and made Phase IV work. JMF & I then came up with the slight-of-hand to create an alternate address space for DECnet, allowing TOPS-10 to also support a reasonable number of users. Presented with a fait-accompli, product management saw the benefits and allowed us to ship it. Happy customers. And we only had to support one version of the monitor through end-of-life of the 36-bit product line. TOPS-20 can participate in a modern network. More or less. There are some restrictions. Yes, but in this context, they're not significant. TOPS-20 Phase-III will talk to a Phase IV system. Routing is different; the Phase-III node doesn't know about areas, and (obviously) anything new in Phase-IV doesn't magically appear in the Phase III implementation. But Phase-III routers and end nodes can happily co-exist with Phase-IV on serial links. NCP works. And PMR can be used to allow the Phase III nodes to communicate across areas. This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. On 13-Apr-13 19:05, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-04-14 00:39, Timothe Litt wrote: That sounds like we can get DECnet on TOPS-20 on SIMH, if so that would be really great! Yes. Which phase(s) does TOPS-20 DECnet support on the KS? Phase III. Because it was so large, Phase IV used extended sections (addressing), which the KS doesn't support. I used slight-of-hand to make Phase IV fit into TOPS-10 on the KS10. Did I remember wrong in that I thought I had seen something from MRC in the past where he said he had managed to get phase IV for TOPS-20 running on a KS? But Phase III will connect to a Phase IV node, so TOPS-20 can participate in a modern network. More or less. There are some restrictions. Johnny Adding DMR support was on my list, but I haven't done it yet. I'll see if I can get the KMC/DUP code in and then do DMR, but it may be a while before I get time. That would be super. It looked like your code has some hooks for DMR, but is incomplete. Given that you don't actually do DDCMP, the differences should be small. -- This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. On 13-Apr-13 18:25, Rob Jarratt wrote: -Original Message- From: Timothe Litt [mailto:l...@ieee.org] Sent: 13 April 2013 22:40 To: r.jarr...@computer.org Cc: Rob Jarratt; 'Johnny Eriksson'; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10 On 13-Apr-13 17:00, Rob Jarratt wrote: I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW problems and lack of time. --Johnny If KDP (KMC/DUP) s
Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
On 2013-04-14 00:39, Timothe Litt wrote: That sounds like we can get DECnet on TOPS-20 on SIMH, if so that would be really great! Yes. Which phase(s) does TOPS-20 DECnet support on the KS? Phase III. Because it was so large, Phase IV used extended sections (addressing), which the KS doesn't support. I used slight-of-hand to make Phase IV fit into TOPS-10 on the KS10. Did I remember wrong in that I thought I had seen something from MRC in the past where he said he had managed to get phase IV for TOPS-20 running on a KS? But Phase III will connect to a Phase IV node, so TOPS-20 can participate in a modern network. More or less. There are some restrictions. Johnny Adding DMR support was on my list, but I haven't done it yet. I'll see if I can get the KMC/DUP code in and then do DMR, but it may be a while before I get time. That would be super. It looked like your code has some hooks for DMR, but is incomplete. Given that you don't actually do DDCMP, the differences should be small. -- This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. On 13-Apr-13 18:25, Rob Jarratt wrote: -Original Message- From: Timothe Litt [mailto:l...@ieee.org] Sent: 13 April 2013 22:40 To: r.jarr...@computer.org Cc: Rob Jarratt; 'Johnny Eriksson'; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10 On 13-Apr-13 17:00, Rob Jarratt wrote: I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW problems and lack of time. --Johnny If KDP (KMC/DUP) still works, it should be integrated into the PDP10 simulator. TOPS-10 (ANF-10 and DECnet) supports the device, and TOPS-20 (DECnet) supports it. Both on the KS10. That sounds like we can get DECnet on TOPS-20 on SIMH, if so that would be really great! It went into the PDP10 emulation for a while but was later removed when we were informed that it would have represented an impossible configuration as the DMC11 would have been in the PDP11 front end. Whoever provided that information was correct for the DMC, but not for the DMR. For the KL, yes, the DECnet serial line adapters were in the PDP11 front end. Ethernet was on an internal channel. If the DMC can be configured as a DMR, it should go into the PDP10 simulator. Adding DMR support was on my list, but I haven't done it yet. I'll see if I can get the KMC/DUP code in and then do DMR, but it may be a while before I get time. As I said, I wrote a KS10 (Unibus) driver for the DMR on TOPS10, which is in the distributed OS sources. The DMC is useless on the KS10. As I noted, the DMR uses fixed addresses in TOPS-10, not the usual Unibus floating addresses. Either device would allow TOPS-10 networking to work under simh. TOPS-10 can be configured for either or both devices. TOPS-10 DECnet will work as either a Phase III or Phase IV end-node on the KS10. (I did the Phase IV implementation for the KS.) Which phase(s) does TOPS-20 DECnet support on the KS? I was a developer for TOPS-10, and supported TOPS-20 (among other things), so this is authoritative. This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
That sounds like we can get DECnet on TOPS-20 on SIMH, if so that would be really great! Yes. Which phase(s) does TOPS-20 DECnet support on the KS? Phase III. Because it was so large, Phase IV used extended sections (addressing), which the KS doesn't support. I used slight-of-hand to make Phase IV fit into TOPS-10 on the KS10. But Phase III will connect to a Phase IV node, so TOPS-20 can participate in a modern network. Adding DMR support was on my list, but I haven't done it yet. I'll see if I can get the KMC/DUP code in and then do DMR, but it may be a while before I get time. That would be super. It looked like your code has some hooks for DMR, but is incomplete. Given that you don't actually do DDCMP, the differences should be small. -- This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. On 13-Apr-13 18:25, Rob Jarratt wrote: -Original Message- From: Timothe Litt [mailto:l...@ieee.org] Sent: 13 April 2013 22:40 To: r.jarr...@computer.org Cc: Rob Jarratt; 'Johnny Eriksson'; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10 On 13-Apr-13 17:00, Rob Jarratt wrote: I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW problems and lack of time. --Johnny If KDP (KMC/DUP) still works, it should be integrated into the PDP10 simulator. TOPS-10 (ANF-10 and DECnet) supports the device, and TOPS-20 (DECnet) supports it. Both on the KS10. That sounds like we can get DECnet on TOPS-20 on SIMH, if so that would be really great! It went into the PDP10 emulation for a while but was later removed when we were informed that it would have represented an impossible configuration as the DMC11 would have been in the PDP11 front end. Whoever provided that information was correct for the DMC, but not for the DMR. For the KL, yes, the DECnet serial line adapters were in the PDP11 front end. Ethernet was on an internal channel. If the DMC can be configured as a DMR, it should go into the PDP10 simulator. Adding DMR support was on my list, but I haven't done it yet. I'll see if I can get the KMC/DUP code in and then do DMR, but it may be a while before I get time. As I said, I wrote a KS10 (Unibus) driver for the DMR on TOPS10, which is in the distributed OS sources. The DMC is useless on the KS10. As I noted, the DMR uses fixed addresses in TOPS-10, not the usual Unibus floating addresses. Either device would allow TOPS-10 networking to work under simh. TOPS-10 can be configured for either or both devices. TOPS-10 DECnet will work as either a Phase III or Phase IV end-node on the KS10. (I did the Phase IV implementation for the KS.) Which phase(s) does TOPS-20 DECnet support on the KS? I was a developer for TOPS-10, and supported TOPS-20 (among other things), so this is authoritative. This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
> -Original Message- > From: Timothe Litt [mailto:l...@ieee.org] > Sent: 13 April 2013 22:40 > To: r.jarr...@computer.org > Cc: Rob Jarratt; 'Johnny Eriksson'; simh@trailing-edge.com > Subject: Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10 > > On 13-Apr-13 17:00, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. > > > > Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at > > ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. > > > > I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW > > problems and lack of time. > > > > --Johnny > > > If KDP (KMC/DUP) still works, it should be integrated into the PDP10 > simulator. TOPS-10 (ANF-10 and DECnet) supports the device, and TOPS-20 > (DECnet) supports it. Both on the KS10. That sounds like we can get DECnet on TOPS-20 on SIMH, if so that would be really great! > > It went into the PDP10 emulation for a while but was later > > removed when we were informed that it would have represented an > impossible > > configuration as the DMC11 would have been in the PDP11 front end. > Whoever provided that information was correct for the DMC, but not for > the DMR. > > For the KL, yes, the DECnet serial line adapters were in the PDP11 front > end. Ethernet was on an internal channel. > > If the DMC can be configured as a DMR, it should go into the PDP10 > simulator. Adding DMR support was on my list, but I haven't done it yet. I'll see if I can get the KMC/DUP code in and then do DMR, but it may be a while before I get time. As I said, I wrote a KS10 (Unibus) driver for the DMR on > TOPS10, which is in the distributed OS sources. The DMC is useless on > the KS10. As I noted, the DMR uses fixed addresses in TOPS-10, not the > usual Unibus floating addresses. > > Either device would allow TOPS-10 networking to work under simh. TOPS-10 > can be configured for either or both devices. TOPS-10 DECnet will work > as either a Phase III or Phase IV end-node on the KS10. (I did the > Phase IV implementation for the KS.) Which phase(s) does TOPS-20 DECnet support on the KS? > > I was a developer for TOPS-10, and supported TOPS-20 (among other > things), so this is authoritative. > > This communication may not represent my employer's views, > if any, on the matters discussed. > ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
On 13-Apr-13 17:00, Rob Jarratt wrote: I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW problems and lack of time. --Johnny If KDP (KMC/DUP) still works, it should be integrated into the PDP10 simulator. TOPS-10 (ANF-10 and DECnet) supports the device, and TOPS-20 (DECnet) supports it. Both on the KS10. It went into the PDP10 emulation for a while but was later removed when we were informed that it would have represented an impossible configuration as the DMC11 would have been in the PDP11 front end. Whoever provided that information was correct for the DMC, but not for the DMR. For the KL, yes, the DECnet serial line adapters were in the PDP11 front end. Ethernet was on an internal channel. If the DMC can be configured as a DMR, it should go into the PDP10 simulator. As I said, I wrote a KS10 (Unibus) driver for the DMR on TOPS10, which is in the distributed OS sources. The DMC is useless on the KS10. As I noted, the DMR uses fixed addresses in TOPS-10, not the usual Unibus floating addresses. Either device would allow TOPS-10 networking to work under simh. TOPS-10 can be configured for either or both devices. TOPS-10 DECnet will work as either a Phase III or Phase IV end-node on the KS10. (I did the Phase IV implementation for the KS.) I was a developer for TOPS-10, and supported TOPS-20 (among other things), so this is authoritative. This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Extended SimH on BeagleBone controls real blinkenlight panels
Hi Mark, I made another page on retrocmp, were I publish the code of SimH with the REALCONS/BlinkenBone extension. I also added some documentation about the concepts behind, so the code should be easier to understand. See here: http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/180-blinkenbone-as-approach-for-simh-device-visualisation I did only focus on the SimH side, the Java application is not (yet) included. All this was a fast hack, I apologize for any trouble. Joerg Am 11.04.2013 02:33, schrieb Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm: On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Jörg Hoppe wrote: Hi Mark, For me also a year has passed ... I'm quite busy at the moment, so I'll send you the code of "SimH with REALCONS extension" on weekend. (And I'd like to take a look into it too.) That will be fine. You surely found this doc about it: http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/174-blinkenbone-simh- extended-with-realcons-panel-control Yes I did. Good general description, but not enough detail. The "simhv381-j-hoppe.zip" you downloaded just contains my "stdio telnet" change, it has nothing to do with the REALCONS extension. That's good. Thanks. - Mark ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
> -Original Message- > From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-bounces@trailing- > edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Eriksson > Sent: 13 April 2013 18:37 > To: Timothe Litt > Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com > Subject: Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10 > > Timothe Litt wrote: > > > The supported networking device for both TOPS10 and TOPS20 was the > KDP > > (KMC-11/DUP-11); this is the microprocessor from the DMC/DMR with > > loadable microcode that manages a DUP-11 via DMA over the Unibus. > > It's a rather unpleasant device... > > I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. > > Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at > ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. > > I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW > problems and lack of time. > > --Johnny > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh That has got to be worth integrating into the latest SIMH. Does that mean we can get DECnet running on TOPS-10 on SIMH? I would love to know how you actually install and set it up on TOPS-10. I believe that even with the device we can't install DECnet on TOPS-20 because I believe it needs a KL processor. I will try to find some time to get the KMC/DUP into the latest SIMH. Incidentally, I am the author of the DMC11 emulation (which was proposed by vaxorcist). It went into the PDP10 emulation for a while but was later removed when we were informed that it would have represented an impossible configuration as the DMC11 would have been in the PDP11 front end. Regards Rob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
Timothe Litt wrote: > The supported networking device for both TOPS10 and TOPS20 was the KDP > (KMC-11/DUP-11); this is the microprocessor from the DMC/DMR with > loadable microcode that manages a DUP-11 via DMA over the Unibus. It's > a rather unpleasant device... I wrote support for the KMC/DUP combo a long time ago, for simh v2.9. Works just fine, both for ANF and DECnet. Sources are (still) at ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd if anyone is interested. I do not have any system up at the moment, due to a combination of HW problems and lack of time. --Johnny ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] DECnet for TOPS-10
I noticed that the DMC-11 was added to simh. It seems to have some support for the DMR-11, but I haven't tried to determine how complete that is. TOPS-10 has a driver for the DMR (but not the DMC). So it might be worthwhile to get the DMR configured with the KS simulator. Connect it to a DECnet routing emulator that also has an ethernet adapter (probably a VAX), and TOPS-10 would be on the network. Also, connect two TOPS-10 systems with a DMR-11 & you can run ANF-10, which is TOPS-10 native networking. (And a -10 with the right -11 & you can run the TOPS-10/IBM RJE gateway.) http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-DMR11-TM-002_Jan81.pdf is the DMR tech manual. 3.5.3 is important; the driver checks for micro-diagnostic result codes. TOPS-10 never supported the DMC-11; I'm pretty sure it would NOT work. I wrote the DMR-11 driver (d8rint.mac), which was officially unsupported, but I shipped it with the OS. For TOPS-10, the DMR-11 bus address is 3764000 (uba 3, unibus 764000); the interrupt vector is 610. I never built a system with more than one, but the software should support up to 8 (10 bytes each for both CSR and vector). You do need to MONGEN to get a monitor with DMR (and networking) support. Also of potential interest: DDT11 will run standalone on the KS10, and contains a pdp-11 simulator. I used this to run the PDP-11 DMR11 diagnostics on the KS10, from the equally unsupported (but working) RX20 floppy. The supported networking device for both TOPS10 and TOPS20 was the KDP (KMC-11/DUP-11); this is the microprocessor from the DMC/DMR with loadable microcode that manages a DUP-11 via DMA over the Unibus. It's a rather unpleasant device... One other note in passing; I noticed that the ks10 IO emulation (pdp10_ksio.c) claims that 4 UBA were architected, but only 2 were used (UBA 1 & 3). This is only partially true; UBA 2 was installed in quite a few systems, particularly systems shipped by the Computer Special Systems group with odd hardware. But also some adventurous customers. -- This communication may not represent my employer's views, if any, on the matters discussed. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
