Re: [Simh] XXDP v2

[Bob Supnik]

I did a quick hack and removed the clock from the device list, 
effectively disabling it. With that done, the 11/23 runs XXDP V2 
correctly, with 64KB of memory. I'll add BEVENT DISABLE to formalize this.


So the failing systems are the 03, 04, 05, and 20. Possible common factors:

- no memory management
- no EIS

I tried an 11/03 with EIS and no clock, and it fails, so EIS does not 
appear to be the problem.


I'm now looking for XXDP monitor sources. The failure happens before 
anything is printed, but a listing would still be of great help.


/Bob
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Re: [Simh] XXDP V2.2 problems.

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
My mistake. What lives on IBIB isn't 2.3 its 2.5. And their FTP
service is playing games again. I found it by using Google. And it
showed me the HTTP crawl for the pages.
-
Gregg C Levine gregg.drw...@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Gregg Levine  wrote:
> Hello!
> Where's 2.5 stored? I have copies of both 2.2 and 2.3 from the IBIB
> site, and the stuff from Bitsavers. But 2.5? When was that created?
> And where would I find it?
> But that is a good start.
> -
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drw...@gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
>> Well, the difference between the 11/23 and 11/23+ is actually that the
>> former only supports 18-bit addressing. The 23+ added the 22-bit addressing.
>> Although, actually finding real 11/23 CPUs are unusual. Most were upgraded
>> to 23+, or were actually 23+ from the start.
>> (That is, unless I have a bit error somewhere in my memory.)
>>
>> When XXDP V2.2 is slightly old. Why are you running that, and not 2.5? Also,
>> unfortunately DEC had a tendency to break XXDP on older machines when they
>> made changes. XXDP was rather poorly maintained.
>>
>> When you are booting XXDP on your 11/23, it halts, but when you continue it
>> says that it was unable to boot XXDP-XM, and instead boots XXDP-SM. So
>> obviously it tries -XM by default, so I'm unsure why you think that it's
>> booting -SM at any time normally.
>>
>> And when -SM boots up it reports 28KW of memory, which seems consistent with
>> a small memory machine, and that -XM would not be able to boot. So, when you
>> are booting XXDP on your 11/44 or 11/23+, are you really sure you only have
>> 64Kbyte memory configured? I would not expect -XM to boot then either.
>>
>> Johnny
>>
>>
>> On 2015-12-28 16:00, Mattis Lind wrote:
>>>
>>> I have some troubles running a known working XXDP V2.2 image in SimH on
>>> a 11/23 (without +), 11/03, 11/04, 11/05 and 11/20.
>>>
>>> I have tested this on a PDP-11/44 and a PDP-11/23+ CPU and it works
>>> fine. Testing the same image in SimH on 11/23+ and 11/44 config with
>>> 64kbyte memory starts the XXDP fine.
>>>
>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/xxdp.dsk
>>>
>>>
>>> Now I have to be honest. I am not entirely sure which CPU configs should
>>> be able to run XXDP V2.2 (Small Monitor).
>>>
>>> But I basically thought that switching to 11/23 (without plus) should
>>> work fine since it is very similar to the plus. Just removing the two
>>> SLUs and the Boot ROMs would make it identical as far as I can see it.
>>>
>>> But it doesn't start.
>>>
>>> sim> b rq0
>>>
>>>
>>> HALT instruction, PC: 000104 (JMP SP)
>>>
>>> Doing a continue actually makes it to boot:
>>>
>>> sim> c
>>>
>>> NOT ENOUGH MEMORY TO BOOT XXDP-XM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.2
>>> REVISION: C0
>>> BOOTED FROM DU0
>>> 28KW OF MEMORY
>>> NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>>
>>> RESTART ADDR: 152010
>>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>> But it is not entirely happy since the very simple GKAAA0 cpu test that
>>> runs fine in 11/23+ mode fails.
>>>
>>> .R GKAAA0
>>> GKAAA0.BIC
>>>
>>> HALT instruction, PC: 000104 (JMP SP)
>>> sim>
>>>
>>> I know that SimH is not supposed to be able to run the diags but what is
>>> the difference on a SimH level between 11/23 and 11/23+ that causes one
>>> to run and the other not?
>>>
>>> Then I tested some other CPUs:
>>>
>>> 11/34, 11/40, 11/44, 11/45, 11/60, 11/70, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93
>>>
>>> The all can start XXDP V2.2 (SM) and run GKAAA0 fine.
>>>
>>> But
>>>
>>> 11/03 and 11/23 give me the halt. In the 11/03 case it is not possible
>>> to do a continue.
>>>
>>> Testing 11/04, 11/05 and 11/20 all give the same result. It never boots
>>> but gets stuck in some loop where it seems to poll the console.
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150674 (BPL 150750)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150750 (MOV (SP)+,R1)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150752 (RTS PC)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 151006 (TST R0)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 151010 (BEQ 151002)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 151002 (JSR PC,150664)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150664 (CLR R0)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150666 (MOV R1,-(SP))
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150670 (TSTB @#177560)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>> Step expired, PC: 150674 (BPL 150750)
>>> sim> s
>>>
>>>
>>> SimH is built from head:
>>>
>>> sim> sh ver
>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta
>>> Simulator Framework Capabilities:
>>> 32b data
>>> 32b addresses
>>> Ethernet Packet transports:PCAP:NAT:UDP
>>> Idle/Throttling support is available
>>> Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) support
>>> Asynchronous I/O support
>>> FrontPanel API Version 1
>>> Host Platform:
>>> Compiler: GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 5.0 (clang-500.2.76)
>>> Simulator 

Re: [Simh] XXDP v2

[Bob Supnik]

It's the MMU.

After adding the BEVENT disable logic, I noticed that the MMU option 
cannot be disabled in any model, although it was in fact optional in the 
KDF11A module (but not the 11/23 system). So I hacked the configuration 
table to make the MMU optional and tried an 11/23 with no MMU. It hangs 
just like the 11/03, 04, 05, and 20.


Why it fails is unknown. Mattis' real 11/04 gets further than the 
simulator, although it ultimately fails.


/Bob

On 12/30/2015 12:00 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 11:28:35 -0500
From: Bob Supnik 
To: "simh@trailing-edge.com" 
Subject: Re: [Simh] XXDP v2
Message-ID: <56840633.5080...@supnik.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I did a quick hack and removed the clock from the device list,
effectively disabling it. With that done, the 11/23 runs XXDP V2
correctly, with 64KB of memory. I'll add BEVENT DISABLE to formalize this.

So the failing systems are the 03, 04, 05, and 20. Possible common factors:

- no memory management
- no EIS

I tried an 11/03 with EIS and no clock, and it fails, so EIS does not
appear to be the problem.

I'm now looking for XXDP monitor sources. The failure happens before
anything is printed, but a listing would still be of great help.

/Bob


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Re: [Simh] XXDP v2

[Mark Pizzolato]

FYI:  The latest github code has Bob’s changes which add support to disable 
BEVENT on the 11/03 and 11/23.

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:50 AM
To: SIMH 
Subject: Re: [Simh] XXDP v2




2015-12-30 18:57 GMT+01:00 Bob Supnik >:
It's the MMU.

After adding the BEVENT disable logic, I noticed that the MMU option cannot be 
disabled in any model, although it was in fact optional in the KDF11A module 
(but not the 11/23 system). So I hacked the configuration table to make the MMU 
optional and tried an 11/23 with no MMU. It hangs just like the 11/03, 04, 05, 
and 20.

Great that we have a solution for BEVENT!

According to the manual XXDP shall resort to the small monitor if the MMU is 
non present or faulty. (page 2-2 indicate so as far as I read it)

I tested the images at 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xxdp/
I can boot the two XXDP RL02 images attached to rl0 on 11/04, 11/05 and 11/20.

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: ea4d9a16
sim> set 11/04
Disabling XQ
sim> attach rl0 ./xxdp22.rl02.img
sim> b rl0


CHMDLD0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR
BOOTED VIA UNIT 0
28K UNIBUS SYSTEM

ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY):
Simulation stopped, PC: 150574 (BPL 150652)
sim> attach rl0 ./xxdp25.rl02.img
sim> b rl0


CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM



BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR


XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
REVISION: D0
BOOTED FROM DL0
28KW OF MEMORY
UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.
Simulation stopped, PC: 151006 (TST R0)
sim> set 11/05
sim> b rl0


CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM



BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR


XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
REVISION: D0
BOOTED FROM DL0
28KW OF MEMORY
UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.
Simulation stopped, PC: 151002 (JSR PC,150664)
sim> set 11/20
sim> b rl0


CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM



BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR


XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
REVISION: D0
BOOTED FROM DL0
28KW OF MEMORY
UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.
Simulation stopped, PC: 150674 (BPL 150750)

So it cannot be the MMU (not alone at least). It has to be a combination with 
device driver.


Why it fails is unknown. Mattis' real 11/04 gets further than the simulator, 
although it ultimately fails.

I am not sure if this is a co-incidence but the real 11/03 behaves very similar 
to the emulated 11/04 in that sense that the address it stops at when halted 
are very similar. The emulated 11/04 seems to be in some kind of loop testing 
for console input.

I did some further testing creating DU-device images (RD51) for XXDP+, XXDP 
V2.5 (2.4?) from the RL02-images mentioned above. They both boot on a 11/04 
(and all the others) in SimH.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/xxdp-plus-du.dsk.gz
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/xxdp-v25-du.dsk.gz

Then I used the V2.2 XXDP image I posted earlier and made a small RD51 image 
out of it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/xxdp-v22-du.dsk.gz

In SimH it boots on 11/73 but not the 11/04.

I have not been able to test real systems yet.

I don't think this is such a big issue since SimH can in fact run both XXDP+ 
and XXDP V2.5 (V2.6) and the real machine also had problems with XXDP V2.2. It 
can also be bugs in XXDP V2.2 that behaves slightly different?

/Mattis



/Bob

On 12/30/2015 12:00 PM, 
simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 11:28:35 -0500
From: Bob Supnik >
To: "simh@trailing-edge.com" 
>
Subject: Re: [Simh] XXDP v2
Message-ID: <56840633.5080...@supnik.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I did a quick hack and removed the clock from the device list,
effectively disabling it. With that done, the 11/23 runs XXDP V2
correctly, with 64KB of memory. I'll add BEVENT DISABLE to formalize this.

So the failing systems are the 03, 04, 05, and 20. Possible common factors:

- no memory management
- no EIS

I tried an 11/03 with EIS and no clock, and it fails, so EIS does not
appear to be the problem.

I'm now looking for XXDP monitor sources. The failure happens before
anything is printed, but a listing would still be of great help.

/Bob


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Re: [Simh] XXDP v2

[Mattis Lind]

2015-12-30 22:59 GMT+01:00 Bob Supnik :

> The "2.2" image on ibibilio is actually XXDP+, the "V1" monitor. It runs
> everything, including the 11/03 and 11/23 with BEVENT enabled.


No it does not run with BEVENT enabled. At least not the DU monitor. I just
tried here:

localhost:BIN mattislind$ ./pdp11

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: ea4d9a16
sim> attach rq0 ./xxdp-plus-du.dsk
sim> set cpu 11/03
sim> b rq0


CHMDUA0 XXDP+ DU MONITOR
BOOTED VIA UNIT 0
28K
HALT instruction, PC: 000104 (JMP SP)
sim> set cpu 11/23
sim> b rq0


CHMDUA0 XXDP+ DU MONITOR
BOOTED VIA UNIT 0
28K
DOES THIS SYSTEM HAVE A UNIBUS? (Y/N CR=Y) N
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY):

RESTART ADDR: 15201
HALT instruction, PC: 000104 (JMP SP)
sim>


The DL monitor is different from the DU monitor. The DL monitor can be run
with BEVENT enabled but not the DU monitor. No idea why.

/Mattis

>
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Re: [Simh] XXDP v2

[Bob Supnik]

The "2.2" image on ibibilio is actually XXDP+, the "V1" monitor. It runs 
everything, including the 11/03 and 11/23 with BEVENT enabled. The 2.5 
image runs on the 03 and 23 with BEVENT disabled, as well as the 04, 05, 
20; in effect, everything as well.


So the problem occurs in Mattis' XXDP 2.2 image. For the 2.2 image, all 
the non-MMU systems fail on the simulator, including the 11/23 if the 
MMU is disabled. The failures appear be similar.


I have not found sources for the XXDP V2 monitor.

/Bob

On 12/30/2015 3:08 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:

Great that we have a solution for BEVENT!

According to the manual XXDP shall resort to the small monitor if the MMU
is non present or faulty. (page 2-2 indicate so as far as I read it)

I tested the images at
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xxdp/
I can boot the two XXDP RL02 images attached to rl0 on 11/04, 11/05 and
11/20.

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: ea4d9a16
sim> set 11/04
Disabling XQ
sim> attach rl0 ./xxdp22.rl02.img
sim> b rl0


CHMDLD0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR
BOOTED VIA UNIT 0
28K UNIBUS SYSTEM

ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY):
Simulation stopped, PC: 150574 (BPL 150652)
sim> attach rl0 ./xxdp25.rl02.img
sim> b rl0


CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM



BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR


XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
REVISION: D0
BOOTED FROM DL0
28KW OF MEMORY
UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.
Simulation stopped, PC: 151006 (TST R0)
sim> set 11/05
sim> b rl0


CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM



BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR


XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
REVISION: D0
BOOTED FROM DL0
28KW OF MEMORY
UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.
Simulation stopped, PC: 151002 (JSR PC,150664)
sim> set 11/20
sim> b rl0


CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM



BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR


XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
REVISION: D0
BOOTED FROM DL0
28KW OF MEMORY
UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.
Simulation stopped, PC: 150674 (BPL 150750)

So it cannot be the MMU (not alone at least). It has to be a combination
with device driver.




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[Simh] Tutorial on setting up RT-11 v5.3 in SimH PDP-11

[Will Senn]

All,

I have posted a new blog entry in the form of a tutorial on setting up 
and using RT-11 v5.3 in SimH. It is accessible via:


http://decuser.blogspot.com/2015/12/tutorial-setting-up-rt-11-v53-on-simh.html

I am aware of and appreciate the extant tutorials, but I have found them 
lacking when it comes to helping a novice or occasional hobbiest 
understand the process of getting started. The tutorial describes how to 
set up a working RT-11 environment for doing MACRO-11 development on the 
PDP-11. I wrote it in order to ensure I could replicate the steps 
required when needed and to help others less persistent than I, with a 
recipe for getting up and running easily, but solidly. Following the 
tutorial should be sufficient to get a hobbyist up an running and able 
to build MACRO-11 applications from text to execution. In a sequel, I 
will cover the use of MACRO and LINK in a bit more detail and also cover 
the ODT debugger.


Please check it out and let me know if you have thoughts, comments, 
suggestions, or criticisms and thanks to those of you who have helped me 
gain the knowledge necessary to write this up. I am still a novice, but 
coming up to speed nicely.


Regards,

Will
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Re: [Simh] XXDP v2

[Mattis Lind]

2015-12-30 22:59 GMT+01:00 Bob Supnik :

> The "2.2" image on ibibilio is actually XXDP+, the "V1" monitor. It runs
> everything, including the 11/03 and 11/23 with BEVENT enabled. The 2.5
> image runs on the 03 and 23 with BEVENT disabled, as well as the 04, 05,
> 20; in effect, everything as well.
>
> So the problem occurs in Mattis' XXDP 2.2 image. For the 2.2 image, all
> the non-MMU systems fail on the simulator, including the 11/23 if the MMU
> is disabled. The failures appear be similar.
>
> I have not found sources for the XXDP V2 monitor.
>
>
I fully agree with Bob. I tried to make a v2.2 for RL02 but it behaves the
same as the DU-version of the v2.2. So it is NOT the driver. I jumped to
conclusions here.

I don't have a real Unibus system with a UDA50 and a drive up and running.
Another option is to hook up a RQDXn with the 11/03. But that is not done
in a short time frame either. So testing on real hardware is not possible
right now.


/Mattis


> /Bob
>
>
> On 12/30/2015 3:08 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
>
>> Great that we have a solution for BEVENT!
>>
>> According to the manual XXDP shall resort to the small monitor if the MMU
>> is non present or faulty. (page 2-2 indicate so as far as I read it)
>>
>> I tested the images at
>> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xxdp/
>> I can boot the two XXDP RL02 images attached to rl0 on 11/04, 11/05 and
>> 11/20.
>>
>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: ea4d9a16
>> sim> set 11/04
>> Disabling XQ
>> sim> attach rl0 ./xxdp22.rl02.img
>> sim> b rl0
>>
>>
>> CHMDLD0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR
>> BOOTED VIA UNIT 0
>> 28K UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>
>> ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY):
>> Simulation stopped, PC: 150574 (BPL 150652)
>> sim> attach rl0 ./xxdp25.rl02.img
>> sim> b rl0
>>
>>
>> CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM
>>
>>
>>
>> BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR
>>
>>
>> XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
>> REVISION: D0
>> BOOTED FROM DL0
>> 28KW OF MEMORY
>> UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>
>> RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP
>>
>> .
>> Simulation stopped, PC: 151006 (TST R0)
>> sim> set 11/05
>> sim> b rl0
>>
>>
>> CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM
>>
>>
>>
>> BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR
>>
>>
>> XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
>> REVISION: D0
>> BOOTED FROM DL0
>> 28KW OF MEMORY
>> UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>
>> RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP
>>
>> .
>> Simulation stopped, PC: 151002 (JSR PC,150664)
>> sim> set 11/20
>> sim> b rl0
>>
>>
>> CPU NOT SUPPORTED BY XXDP-XM
>>
>>
>>
>> BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR
>>
>>
>> XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4
>> REVISION: D0
>> BOOTED FROM DL0
>> 28KW OF MEMORY
>> UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>
>> RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP
>>
>> .
>> Simulation stopped, PC: 150674 (BPL 150750)
>>
>> So it cannot be the MMU (not alone at least). It has to be a combination
>> with device driver.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Simh] Tutorial on setting up RT-11 v5.3 in SimH PDP-11

[lists]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 16:17:26 -0600
Will Senn  wrote:

> All,
> 
> I have posted a new blog entry in the form of a tutorial on setting up 
> and using RT-11 v5.3 in SimH. It is accessible via:
> 
> http://decuser.blogspot.com/2015/12/tutorial-setting-up-rt-11-v53-on-simh.html

Thank you very much. I haven't had time to look over it but as I have no
DEC background I'm interested in helpful articles like that. I'd like to
find some good ones for RSX-11M also.

I plan to have a look at your page as soon as I get out from under the pile
of work that always seems to get dumped on me at year's end.

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Re: [Simh] Strange PDP-11 behavior

[Mattis Lind]

2015-12-30 0:12 GMT+01:00 Bob Supnik :

> Regarding Mark Lind's post:
>

Mattis Lind, not Mark Lind.


>
> It's a simple detective problem. Where does an 11/23 differ from an 11/23+?
>
> If you look in pdp11_defs.h, F-11 based systems are grouped together, and
> CPUT_F is used in most feature definitions.
>
> #define CPUT_F  (CPUT_23|CPUT_23P|CPUT_24)  /* all F11's */
>
> There is only ONE place where an 11/23+ is called out as something other
> than a generic F-11 CPU:
>
> #define HAS_LTCR(CPUT_04|CPUT_05|CPUT_20|CPUT_23P|CPUT_24| \
>  CPUT_34|CPUT_40|CPUT_44|CPUT_45|CPUT_60| \
>  CPUT_70|CPUT_J)
>
> That is, the 11/23+ and 11/24 have a line time clock register. The 11/23
> DOES NOT.
>
> When the TST @#172540 occurs, the PSW is set to 350 (IPL 6), locking out
> any clock interrupts. The interrupt vector for NXM, however, sets the PSW
> to 0. That means any pending line-time clock interrupt will occur
> immediately.
>
> On an 11/23+, the line time clock register initializes to interrupts
> disabled. On the 11/23, though, there IS NO line time clock register, and a
> clock interrupt is pending. As soon as the NXM trap completes, an interrupt
> occurs through vector 100, which is set up as follows:
>
> 100/102
> 102/0
>
> So the PC is set to 102, which is a HALT instruction, and the simulator
> halts, with the PC pointing at the next instruction.
>
> Everything is behaving as it should. This version of XXDP was not designed
> to run on an 11/23, and it runs on an 11/23+ by coincidence.
>

This is interesting. I have yet to find a comprehensive document that tells
what version of XXDP that run on what model.
This document http://www.dmv.net/dec/pdf/xxdpum.pdf on page  2-2 (26) says
11/23 family is supported. This document seems to relate to V2.4

Now testing SimH with a (compressed) XXDP 2.5 and XXDP 2.2 image give
exactly the same result. Halt.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xxdp/

I really think that it should be possible to run XXDP V2.2 and V2.2 on a
KDF11-A CPU.
Testing on real hardware shows that both KDF11-A and KDF11-B boots up fine.
If I enable LTC on a KDF11-A (have not tested on KDF11-B yet) it will halt
at the very same location.

So it has to do with LTC rather than model in my opinion. So how can I
disable LTC in SimH so that it acts like the LTC switch on the front panel?
"set clk disabled" give "Command not allowed"


>
> Moral: don't run software on hardware models that it doesn't support. And
> compress your disk images before posting them.
>

Please point me to some document that clearly states that XXDP 2.2 (and
2.5) is not possible to run on 11/23 and 11/23+. Second. Sorry about the
uncompressed image.

BTW: I have also tested this very same image on a real 11/04 and it does
boot to XXDP prompt (it does have DL11-W so LTC registers are there) . But
then it is unable to read the disk. Maybe the DU driver is not happy with
the CMD SCSI card. Booting RT11 on the same setup works fine.

Testing on a real 11/03 boots but hangs in a loop somewhere around 150100
and never prints a prompt. (LTC disabled)

But for the two latter it is highly unsure if they are at all supported by
XXDP v2.2

/Mattis


> /Bob Supnik
>
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Re: [Simh] Strange PDP-11 behavior

[Mattis Lind]

onsdag 30 december 2015 skrev Johnny Billquist :

> Ah... And I need to correct myself.
>
> Bob didn't say that the 11/23 didn't have an LTC. He said it didn't have a
> LTCR... So, in short, you cannot disable the LTC interrupt on the 11/23.
> Interesting. Weird. Oh well. I can't find any reference to an LTCR in the
> documentation, so it would appear that this really is the case.
> So, in order to run XXDP on an 11/23, you need to disable the LTC signal
> then.


That was my question in the previous post to the list. On the real hardware
it is a matter of toggling a switch on the front panel to disable the LTC
signal. How is this performed in SimH?

/Mattis
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Re: [Simh] Strange PDP-11 behavior

[Johnny Billquist]

Ah... And I need to correct myself.

Bob didn't say that the 11/23 didn't have an LTC. He said it didn't have 
a LTCR... So, in short, you cannot disable the LTC interrupt on the 
11/23. Interesting. Weird. Oh well. I can't find any reference to an 
LTCR in the documentation, so it would appear that this really is the case.
So, in order to run XXDP on an 11/23, you need to disable the LTC signal 
then.


So I correct myself - seems as if simh is doing it right.

Johnny

On 2015-12-30 13:50, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Well, Bob definitely nailed why it was halting when set to PDP-11/23
mode. The LTC is the problem, obviously.

However, I think simh is wrong in doing it this way. The KDF11-AA manual
clearly documents that the CPU do handle the BEVENT signal, and traps to
100, unless you remove W4, so why simh pretends that an 11/23 do not
have an LTC is beyond me.
(See
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1123/EK-KDF11-UG-PR2_Mar79.pdf,
page 2-2)

So, that has been cleared up. I'd say that simh is wrong in not having
an LTC for the 11/23, and once that is changed, XXDP will run fine on
the 11/23 both in real life and in simh.

Next, the question of supported versions - I do not have a list, and
tend to try and run the latest version. However, in this case I think we
can clearly say that the version of XXDP was not the issue. And in fact,
V2.2 did run fine on the real hardware (not sure if you mentioned that
on the list).

The problems you've seen with some other CPUs and controllers are a
separate issue. Not sure if we can easily figure that one out. Do you,
by any chance, have a real DEC MSCP controller and some disks, that you
could test with as well? It might be that there are some issues with
some CPUs related to MSCP that cause XXDP to fail, as well as bugs in
XXDP itself.

 Johnny

On 2015-12-30 11:42, Mattis Lind wrote:



2015-12-30 0:12 GMT+01:00 Bob Supnik >:

Regarding Mark Lind's post:


Mattis Lind, not Mark Lind.


It's a simple detective problem. Where does an 11/23 differ from an
11/23+?

If you look in pdp11_defs.h, F-11 based systems are grouped
together, and CPUT_F is used in most feature definitions.

#define CPUT_F  (CPUT_23|CPUT_23P|CPUT_24)  /* all
F11's */

There is only ONE place where an 11/23+ is called out as something
other than a generic F-11 CPU:

#define HAS_LTCR(CPUT_04|CPUT_05|CPUT_20|CPUT_23P|CPUT_24| \
  CPUT_34|CPUT_40|CPUT_44|CPUT_45|CPUT_60| \
  CPUT_70|CPUT_J)

That is, the 11/23+ and 11/24 have a line time clock register. The
11/23 DOES NOT.

When the TST @#172540 occurs, the PSW is set to 350 (IPL 6), locking
out any clock interrupts. The interrupt vector for NXM, however,
sets the PSW to 0. That means any pending line-time clock interrupt
will occur immediately.

On an 11/23+, the line time clock register initializes to interrupts
disabled. On the 11/23, though, there IS NO line time clock
register, and a clock interrupt is pending. As soon as the NXM trap
completes, an interrupt occurs through vector 100, which is set up
as follows:

100/102
102/0

So the PC is set to 102, which is a HALT instruction, and the
simulator halts, with the PC pointing at the next instruction.

Everything is behaving as it should. This version of XXDP was not
designed to run on an 11/23, and it runs on an 11/23+ by coincidence.


This is interesting. I have yet to find a comprehensive document that
tells what version of XXDP that run on what model.
This document http://www.dmv.net/dec/pdf/xxdpum.pdf on page  2-2 (26)
says 11/23 family is supported. This document seems to relate to V2.4

Now testing SimH with a (compressed) XXDP 2.5 and XXDP 2.2 image give
exactly the same result. Halt.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xxdp/

I really think that it should be possible to run XXDP V2.2 and V2.2 on a
KDF11-A CPU.
Testing on real hardware shows that both KDF11-A and KDF11-B boots up
fine. If I enable LTC on a KDF11-A (have not tested on KDF11-B yet) it
will halt at the very same location.

So it has to do with LTC rather than model in my opinion. So how can I
disable LTC in SimH so that it acts like the LTC switch on the front
panel? "set clk disabled" give "Command not allowed"


Moral: don't run software on hardware models that it doesn't
support. And compress your disk images before posting them.


Please point me to some document that clearly states that XXDP 2.2 (and
2.5) is not possible to run on 11/23 and 11/23+. Second. Sorry about the
uncompressed image.

BTW: I have also tested this very same image on a real 11/04 and it does
boot to XXDP prompt (it does have DL11-W so LTC registers are there) .
But then it is unable to read the disk. Maybe the DU driver is not happy
with 

[Simh] XXDP V2 and SimH

[Bob Supnik]

The 11/23 simulator boots the ibiblio image called "xxdp22_with_1123" 
correctly. However, the image is XXDP+, not XXDP 2.2:

PDP-11 simulator V3.10-0
sim> set cpu 11/23,64
sim> att -e rl c:\temp\xxdp_with_1123.rl02
sim> boot rl


CHMDLD0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR
BOOTED VIA UNIT 0
28K
DOES THIS SYSTEM HAVE A UNIBUS? (Y/N CR=Y) N
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY): 12-DEC-88

RESTART ADDR: 152010
THIS IS XXDP+.  TYPE "H" OR "H/L" FOR HELP.

.D

ENTRY# FILNAM.EXTDATE  LENGTH  START

1  MMDP  .SAV   3-MAR-83C17000310
2  MTDP  .SAV   3-MAR-83C17000331
3  HSAAD0.SYS   3-MAR-83 24000352
etc

The "xxdp25" image halts, per the analysis in previous messages.

The common factors for failure appear to be either lack of memory management 
(03, 04, 05, 20) or lack of a LTC control register (03, 23) or both.

It is not possible to add a "DISABLE" feature to the clock, because it is already running 
before the first simulator command is given, and the simulator can't/won't disable scheduled 
devices. I will look into adding a "BEVENT DISABLE" for the clock, to mimic real 11/03 
and 11/23 systems.

You mentioned that XXDP 2.2 runs on a real 11/23 (with BEVENT disabled) and 
11/23+ systems. How much memory is in those systems?

/Bob

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