Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[J. David Bryan]

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 18:26, Michael Kerpan wrote:

> I'd be interested in knowing what kind of options are out there for
> "real" HP terminal emulation. 

I've used the following HP terminal emulators over the years:

 - QCTerm (Windows) by AICS
   http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=585

 - AdvanceLink 2392 (DOS and Windows) by HP
   http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=50
   http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=178

 - Reflection (DOS and Windows) by Walker, Richer, and Quinn
   http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=308

 - Crosstalk (Windows) by Attachmate

 - Session (Windows) by Tymlabs

All of the emulators, except QCTerm, were commercial products.  Reflection 
is probably the one that offered the most faithful emulation.  The others 
were close, but not perfect, reproductions of the hardware behavior.

(I used QCTerm while developing the simulator.)

  -- Dave

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Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-03-11 00:26, Michael Kerpan wrote:

Yes "Telnet" technically refers to a protocol, but it was clear that the
OP meant "standard GUI telnet client which implements something that
works vaguely like a VT100 with ANSI color tacked on."


That was definitely not clear to me. In my head, he's running some bog 
standard telnet client on a system where he probably is using some 
windowing system, on which he is running a terminal application (think 
xterm). What kind of emulation that terminal application provides I 
don't know, but what he should be asking would be if some other terminal 
application than "Xyzzy" would give him a better experience connected to 
the HP machine. Telnet have nothing to do with it.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[Michael Kerpan]

Yes "Telnet" technically refers to a protocol, but it was clear that the OP
meant "standard GUI telnet client which implements something that works
vaguely like a VT100 with ANSI color tacked on."

I'd be interested in knowing what kind of options are out there for "real"
HP terminal emulation. Also, even if the supplied software kit doesn't
include much that needs more sophisticated terminal emulation, I'd hope
that the contributed software will eventually become available. I'd be
especially interested in seeing HP (Langston/Norton) Empire...

Mike
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Re: [Simh] Disk info request

[Paul Koning]

> On Mar 10, 2016, at 1:31 PM, dun...@caltech.edu wrote:
> 
>> Name SecSiz Sec/Tk Tk/Cy Cyls   Capacity   LBNs  
> Delta
>> RL01   512 40 2   256   10485760  20480 10.000 MB  
> 121
>> RL02   512 40 2   512   20971520  40960 20.000 MB  
> 121
> 
> I believe the correct RL0x values should be:
> 
> RL01   256 40 2   2565242880  10240  5.000 MiB  ?
> RL02   256 40 2   512   10485760  20480 10.000 MiB  ?

That looks right.  In particular, yes, the sectors are 256 bytes. RSTS matches 
that (except that it does not use the last 20 512-byte blocks, presumably for 
the bad block table).

paul

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Re: [Simh] Disk info request

[Henry Bent]

Here's /etc/disktab from Digital Unix 4.0D, which has info about many of
the RZ drives as well as some of the RA drives.

http://pastebin.com/XNcjEeR7

-Henry

On 10 March 2016 at 14:01, Clem Cole  wrote:

>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:31 PM,  wrote:
>
>> The utility of such a list is great.  Various folks have tried to develop
>> such lists over the years, with varying success and degrees of fidelity
>> and accuracy.
>>
> ​Good point, but you might be able to start with something that has been
> around for a long time.
>
> 4.X BSD has the disktab db in section 5 of the man pages, check out:
> https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=disktab=5
>
> Seems like that data has been vetted a bit (at least for systems from the
> late '70-early 2000's)
> Source for NET2  on Warren's archives take a look for
> usr/src/etc/etc.*/*tab*
>
> The vax directory has: r[ab][68][01], rd53, rm[08][035], rp0[67] plus a
> few more. They also have a few more manufacturers in other directories. It 
> might
> be interesting to see simh use the same DB.
>
> Clem
>
> ​
>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] Disk info request

[Clem Cole]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:31 PM,  wrote:

> The utility of such a list is great.  Various folks have tried to develop
> such lists over the years, with varying success and degrees of fidelity
> and accuracy.
>
​Good point, but you might be able to start with something that has been
around for a long time.

4.X BSD has the disktab db in section 5 of the man pages, check out:
https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=disktab=5

Seems like that data has been vetted a bit (at least for systems from the
late '70-early 2000's)
Source for NET2  on Warren's archives take a look for
usr/src/etc/etc.*/*tab*

The vax directory has: r[ab][68][01], rd53, rm[08][035], rp0[67] plus a few
more. They also have a few more manufacturers in other directories. It might
be interesting to see simh use the same DB.

Clem

​
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Re: [Simh] Disk info request

[Paul Koning]

Some more notes...

> On Mar 8, 2016, at 8:47 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
> 
> Name SecSiz Sec/Tk Tk/Cy Cyls   Capacity   LBNs   Delta
> RK05   512 12 2   2032494464   4872  2.379 MB37

The book says "200 cylinders plus 3 spare".   I don't know what that spare 
stuff is all about.  RSTS treats it as a 200 cylinder device (4800 sectors).

> ...
> RK11   512 12 2   2032494464   4872  2.379 MB37

That's the RK05 ("RK11" designates the controller, not drive)

paul
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Re: [Simh] Disk info request

[dundas]

>  Name SecSiz Sec/Tk Tk/Cy Cyls   Capacity   LBNs  
Delta
>  RL01   512 40 2   256   10485760  20480 10.000 MB  
121
>  RL02   512 40 2   512   20971520  40960 20.000 MB  
121

I believe the correct RL0x values should be:

 RL01   256 40 2   2565242880  10240  5.000 MiB  ?
 RL02   256 40 2   512   10485760  20480 10.000 MiB  ?

The utility of such a list is great.  Various folks have tried to develop
such lists over the years, with varying success and degrees of fidelity
and accuracy.  Perhaps a document on the SIMH site or in a community
editable form (Wikipedia?) would be useful to coalesce and supersede the
individual efforts?

Since Delta is file-system specific, maybe a separate table for the
various DEC files systems that have device-specific parameters would be
appropriate?

John

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Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-03-10 18:09, Paul Koning wrote:



On Mar 10, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:

On 2016-03-10 06:33, Zachary Kline wrote:

More to the point, is their anything an HP terminal emulator could give me that 
regular Telnet wouldn’t?


You are comparing apples and oranges. A terminal emulator emulates a terminal. 
Telnet is a program for connecting interactively from one computer to another, 
and have nothing to do with terminal emulation.


True for most operating systems.  On Windows, the two tend to get combined 
because you don't have a reasonable shell or terminal emulator window.  So 
network terminal programs like PuTTY combine the telnet (and/or SSH) function 
with a terminal emulator.


True. But then we're not really talking about "regular telnet", but a 
program like PuTTY, which has telnet as the transport layer. Telnet is 
still not a terminal emulation - PuTTY is, in this case.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[Paul Koning]

> On Mar 10, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-03-10 06:33, Zachary Kline wrote:
>> More to the point, is their anything an HP terminal emulator could give me 
>> that regular Telnet wouldn’t?
> 
> You are comparing apples and oranges. A terminal emulator emulates a 
> terminal. Telnet is a program for connecting interactively from one computer 
> to another, and have nothing to do with terminal emulation.

True for most operating systems.  On Windows, the two tend to get combined 
because you don't have a reasonable shell or terminal emulator window.  So 
network terminal programs like PuTTY combine the telnet (and/or SSH) function 
with a terminal emulator.

paul


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Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-03-10 06:33, Zachary Kline wrote:

More to the point, is their anything an HP terminal emulator could give me that 
regular Telnet wouldn’t?


You are comparing apples and oranges. A terminal emulator emulates a 
terminal. Telnet is a program for connecting interactively from one 
computer to another, and have nothing to do with terminal emulation.


Johnny


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Re: [Simh] HP 3000 Terminals

[J. David Bryan]

On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 21:33, Zachary Kline wrote:

> More to the point, is their anything an HP terminal emulator could
> give me that regular Telnet wouldn´t? 

With the basic software kit, the only application that requires an HP 
terminal is V/3000.  This is a forms generator and data entry system that 
allowed one to design screen forms that could be tied into user 
applications, such as an invoicing or payroll system (the 3000 was 
primarily a business system).  The HP terminals of the time, such as the 
2645A, had the capability of entering data locally into the terminal's 
memory and transmitting it later as a block to the computer.  An invoice 
form, for example, could be displayed for data entry, and when the user had 
completed it, the terminal would transmit only the form content (but not 
the surrounding forms framework).

HP terminals recognized a large set of "escape sequences" -- character 
sequences beginning with the ESC character -- to control the cursor, 
display in inverse video, blinking, or underlined, select among character 
sets, etc.  A lot of programs in the (user) Contributed Software Library 
took advantage of this and so required HP terminals to run.  But 
unfortunately, the 3000 CSL isn't publicly available.

So, as a practical matter, using an HP terminal emulator doesn't buy you 
much with the supplied software kit.

  -- Dave

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