[Simh] "Raw" disk access

[Alan Frisbie]

I see in the SIMH v4.0 User's Guide that Windows and Linux hosts
can use raw (real, physical) disk drives.   Is there any chance
that that capability will show up for VMS hosts anytime soon?

It would make it a lot easier to move entire disk file structures
back and forth between my emulated (PDP-11) system and the host
(Alpha) system.

Thanks,
Alan Frisbie
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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Mark Pizzolato 
> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> >> Emulating a real server is probably harder.
> >
> > Well, maybe  From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11
> > system with Qbus serial and networking cards.  It might be a mere
> > configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).
> >
> >> It all depends on what the goal is.
> >> If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means
> you
> >> get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.
> >
> > Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.
> 
> I think you're right. Like I said above, I think Simh can already do
> the 11/53 CPU, the DEQNA, and the CXY08. I don't think Simh could do
> any other type of line card when I last checked but who cares. So with
> a little Simh configuration, a MOP server and software, and the DS500
> ROM it might just almost work. But I believe Tim's original message
> said he couldn't get the ROM loaded.

Yes it doesn't have the actual DS500 ROM, BUT is that necessary?
The PDP11 simulator can do a DEQNA/DELQA MOP boot.  It would seem
that this combined with a MOP server with the correct DS500 image 
should be good enough since hopefully, the only purpose of the real 
ROM is to support the setup of the device MOP boot.  It would seem
reasonable that everything else would actually be provided in the 
downloaded DS500 image

- Mark
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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Jim Carpenter]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> Emulating a real server is probably harder.
>
> Well, maybe  From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11
> system with Qbus serial and networking cards.  It might be a mere
> configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).
>
>> It all depends on what the goal is.
>> If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means you
>> get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.
>
> Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.

I think you're right. Like I said above, I think Simh can already do
the 11/53 CPU, the DEQNA, and the CXY08. I don't think Simh could do
any other type of line card when I last checked but who cares. So with
a little Simh configuration, a MOP server and software, and the DS500
ROM it might just almost work. But I believe Tim's original message
said he couldn't get the ROM loaded.

Jim
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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> Emulating a real server is probably harder.  

Well, maybe  From my vague recollection, the DECServer 500 is a PDP11 
system with Qbus serial and networking cards.  It might be a mere 
configuration exercise to get there (or almost there).

> It all depends on what the goal is.
> If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means you
> get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.  

Simh's PDP11 might be a path to doing that.

- Mark 
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Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME

[Johnny Billquist]

Right. The 330 and 340 have a cover plate you can attach so that it looks nice 
and clean from behind. But it's a piece of plastic that just snaps in place. 
Many never had it on as you wanted access to the cables a bit more convenient, 
which matters more than looks for many.

  Johnny 


Richard  skrev: (11 april 2017 18:34:22 CEST)
>In article ,
>Johnny Billquist  writes:
>
>> Actually, if you go to page 46, you have a full picture of the rear. 
>> Looking from left to right, you have a rectangle where the DB25 is, a
>
>> narrow, high rectangle which is the cartridge slot, then a place for
>a 
>> label or whatever, and at the right end is the power receptacle.
>
>OK, I see it now.  They had it covered up on pg. 3.
>
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Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Richard]

In article 

Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Richard]

In article <58ec2728.5020...@9track.net>,
Matt Burke  writes:

> On 09/04/2017 06:11, Tim Stark wrote:
> >  
> >
> > VT340 uses 8031/8051 processor with 2681 and custom graphics
> > processor. It uses 4 DC 322 Viper Gullwin (each bitmap plane).
> >
> > (I can't find DC 7051 (timing generator) and DC 322/323 (Adder/Viper)
> > tech docs so far).  It uses 4 bitmap planes.
> >
> > It supports up to 4096 colors but can only select 16 colors from them.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> The Adder and Viper chips are documented in EK-104AA-TM-001 - VCB02
> Video Subsystem Technical Manual.

Nice!


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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Richard]

Thanks Dave, my little brain did manage to piece it together later,
LOL.  That's what I get for sorting threads by subject instead of by
date :).

I'm starting to add pages for terminal servers to the terminals wiki:


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Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME

[Richard]

In article ,
Johnny Billquist  writes:

> Actually, if you go to page 46, you have a full picture of the rear. 
> Looking from left to right, you have a rectangle where the DB25 is, a 
> narrow, high rectangle which is the cartridge slot, then a place for a 
> label or whatever, and at the right end is the power receptacle.

OK, I see it now.  They had it covered up on pg. 3.

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Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME

[Richard]

In article ,
Johnny Billquist  writes:

> Correct. There is a port on the external case.

Look at the case diagram in this document on pdf pg 3 and show me
where there is an external port to the ROM cartridge.

> 


> Yes. I don't know how you read schematics, but if you start with that 
> document, you have the ROM cartridge mentioned already on the first page.

I read schematics just fine and I agree that it is all over the
schematics but I am referring to the diagram for the case where the
external ports are shown.  I don't see any port shown for a ROM
cartridge.
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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Richard]

In article <58ec2b2e.2070...@9track.net>,
Matt Burke  writes:

> I can't find where I downloaded this from but here is the DECserver 300
> Technical Description:
> 
> http://www.9track.net/decserver/ek-a0367-tm-001.pdf

Nice!


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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Paul Koning]

Emulating a real server is probably harder.  It all depends on what the goal 
is.  If you emulate the server, you can run the server code on it, which means 
you get exactly what that code does -- bugs and all.  If you implement LAT at 
the protocol level, it's an independent implementation with a distinct set of 
bugs.

It also depends on what you enjoy.  You may pick the harder job because it's 
fun to do.  For example, if you have a PDP-11 Fortran program, you could simply 
compile it with Linux Fortran and run it on your PC -- or you could compile it 
on your RT11 or RSTS or whatever PDP11 system and run "the real thing".  Which 
one is right?  They both are.  Pick the one that floats your boat.

paul

> On Apr 11, 2017, at 11:11 AM, khandy21yo  wrote:
> 
> Would it be easier to emulate a Dec server, or fix the Linux Decnet code?
> 
> If you had LAT working well under Linux, then writing a Dec server would be a 
> simple she'll script. Well, maybe not real simple to get all the details 
> right, but not too hard.
> 

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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[khandy21yo]

Would it be easier to emulate a Dec server, or fix the Linux Decnet code?
If you had LAT working well under Linux, then writing a Dec server would be a 
simple she'll script. Well, maybe not real simple to get all the details right, 
but not too hard.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Pontus Pihlgren  
Date: 4/11/17  4:54 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: Jim Carpenter  
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) 
emulation? 
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 05:40:55AM -0400, Jim Carpenter wrote:
> 
> Meh. I like the DECserver interface and I only need LAT. And as you said,
> the Linux LAT isn't perfect.
> 

Precisely, people complain about LAT in linux or the poor emulation of 
glass terminals. Getting a DECserver and VT2x0 emulated should raise the 
bar a bit.

/P
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Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Armistead, Jason]

A DS200 fits in a standard 19 inch rack.

Refer to page E-2 of the DS200 hardware installation guide for precise 
dimensions and weight:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/ethernet/decserver_200/EK-D200C-IN-001_DECserver_200_Hardware_Installation_Oct86.pdf


From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of khandy21yo
Sent: Tuesday, 11 April 2017 11:02 AM
To: Gregg Levine; Brian Wheeler
Cc: Simh
Subject: Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

DS200 is about the size of an IBM PC-XT. Not as heavy though.
Lousy fans on most of them. They always gave me problems.



Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A

 Original message 
From: Gregg Levine >
Date: 4/11/17 8:02 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Brian Wheeler >
Cc: Simh >
Subject: Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

Hello!
It's okay. How big is it?
-
Gregg C Levine gregg.drw...@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Brian Wheeler 
> wrote:
> All of this talk reminds me -- I've got a DS200 in my basement that I don't
> need any more.  Does anybody want it?  Free for shipping from 47408.
>
>
> Apologies for the off-topic-ness since this is real hardware :)
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 04/11/2017 09:18 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Richard 
> > wrote:
>
> In article 
> <01d2b0ef$c2cd4330$4867c990$@verizon.net>,
> "Tim Stark" > writes:
>
> DS200 uses 68000 processor with AM7990 (LANCE) and 4 2681 DUARTs.
>
> DS300 uses 68020 processor with TC23SC241AP and 8 2681 DUARTs.
>
> DS500 uses KDJ11-SD processor (11/53) with CXA16/CXB16 devices.
>
> What are these?
>
> DECserver, aka a terminal/console server. Older ones are LAT only,
> newer ones do Telnet as well.
>
> Pat
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Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
It's okay. How big is it?
-
Gregg C Levine gregg.drw...@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Brian Wheeler  wrote:
> All of this talk reminds me -- I've got a DS200 in my basement that I don't
> need any more.  Does anybody want it?  Free for shipping from 47408.
>
>
> Apologies for the off-topic-ness since this is real hardware :)
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 04/11/2017 09:18 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Richard  wrote:
>
> In article <01d2b0ef$c2cd4330$4867c990$@verizon.net>,
> "Tim Stark"  writes:
>
> DS200 uses 68000 processor with AM7990 (LANCE) and 4 2681 DUARTs.
>
> DS300 uses 68020 processor with TC23SC241AP and 8 2681 DUARTs.
>
> DS500 uses KDJ11-SD processor (11/53) with CXA16/CXB16 devices.
>
> What are these?
>
> DECserver, aka a terminal/console server. Older ones are LAT only,
> newer ones do Telnet as well.
>
> Pat
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Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Brian Wheeler]

  
  
All of this talk reminds me -- I've got
a DS200 in my basement that I don't need any more.  Does anybody
want it?  Free for shipping from 47408.

  Apologies for the off-topic-ness since
this is real hardware :)
Brian


On 04/11/2017 09:18 AM, Patrick
  Finnegan wrote:


  On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Richard  wrote:

  
In article <01d2b0ef$c2cd4330$4867c990$@verizon.net>,
"Tim Stark"  writes:



  DS200 uses 68000 processor with AM7990 (LANCE) and 4 2681 DUARTs.

DS300 uses 68020 processor with TC23SC241AP and 8 2681 DUARTs.

DS500 uses KDJ11-SD processor (11/53) with CXA16/CXB16 devices.



What are these?

  
  

DECserver, aka a terminal/console server. Older ones are LAT only,
newer ones do Telnet as well.

Pat
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Hittner, David T [US] (MS)]

Richard,

You weren't very clear identifying the objects of the "What are these?" 
question.

I'll define all of the terms for clarity.

DS200 - Digital DecServer 200, an old terminal server with 8x 25-pin RS232 
serial ports with modem control
DS300 - Digital DecServer 300, an later model terminal server with both modem 
control and non-modem control variants
DS500 - Digital DecServer 500 and 550, a much later and larger terminal server 
that could serve more serial lines (32+), using both modem control and 
non-modem control cards
68000 - Motorola 68000 processor
68020 - Motorola 68020 processor
KDJ11-SD - Digital KDJ11-SD processor, which is a later PDP-11 processor; the 
KDJ11 processors are also known as the J-11 series chips
AM7990 (LANCE) - AMD Ethernet chip, commonly called the LANCE Ethernet 
controller in documentation
TC23SC241AP - Toshiba Ethernet chip, higher performance than the LANCE
2681 DUART - Philips Dual Universal Asynchronous Receiver/Transmitter (DUART) , 
a serial (RS232) chip
CXA16/CXB16 - a Digital 16-port serial board that plugs into Digital Q-BUS and 
S-BUS based systems (VAX, PDP11, and DecServer 5xx)

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 5:26 PM
To: SIMH
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

In article <01d2b0ef$c2cd4330$4867c990$@verizon.net>,
"Tim Stark"  writes:

> DS200 uses 68000 processor with AM7990 (LANCE) and 4 2681 DUARTs. 
> 
> DS300 uses 68020 processor with TC23SC241AP and 8 2681 DUARTs.
> 
> DS500 uses KDJ11-SD processor (11/53) with CXA16/CXB16 devices. 

What are these?
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Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Patrick Finnegan]

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Richard  wrote:
> In article <01d2b0ef$c2cd4330$4867c990$@verizon.net>,
> "Tim Stark"  writes:
>
>> DS200 uses 68000 processor with AM7990 (LANCE) and 4 2681 DUARTs.
>>
>> DS300 uses 68020 processor with TC23SC241AP and 8 2681 DUARTs.
>>
>> DS500 uses KDJ11-SD processor (11/53) with CXA16/CXB16 devices.
>
> What are these?


DECserver, aka a terminal/console server. Older ones are LAT only,
newer ones do Telnet as well.

Pat
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Re: [Simh] DECserver (terminal server) emulation?

[Jim Carpenter]

On Apr 10, 2017 14:59, "Johnny Billquist"  wrote:

On 2017-04-10 12:05, Jim Carpenter wrote:

>
>
> On Apr 8, 2017 16:37, "Tim Stark"  > wrote:
>
> I have a great idea about DECserver emulator.  Does anyone plan to
> emulate one of DECserver series?
>
>
> I have always wanted an emulator for a DECserver 500! My ISP only hands
> out 1 IP address so using NAT port forwarding to hang a DECserver off
> port 23 would be really nice. I may have other uses for it too. (No, I
> don't want a real one. I have enough stuff here.)
>

Seems like you are trying to find complex solutions for simple problems.


For me it's a simple solution to a simple problem; Tim is the one doing all
the hard work. :)

Besides, if complexity scared me I would have picked a different hobby.



Wouldn't it be easier to just write some small piece of software that
accepts incoming connections on the telnet port, and can let you connect to
other things without having to emulate a whole DECserver?


Meh. I like the DECserver interface and I only need LAT. And as you said,
the Linux LAT isn't perfect.


I used DECservers in the past and want to use them again. It would just
make things feel right when I'm playing.

Jim
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Re: [Simh] VT240, VT340 and DS200/300 HW specs info

[Jim Carpenter]

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Tim Stark  wrote:
> DS500 uses KDJ11-SD processor (11/53) with CXA16/CXB16 devices.

Don't forget the CXY08, which provides 8 RS232 lines with full modem
control, and of course the DEQNA/DESQA for network.

http://h20564.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c00340783

Jim
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Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-04-11 08:32, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2017-04-11 01:31, Richard wrote:

In article ,
Johnny Billquist  writes:


No. The VT330 and VT340 have an external cartridhe that plugs into a
slot in the back, and which holds most of the code.


You're describing this like there's a port on the external case of the
terminal for this, but I am not seeing that in the diagrams.  It shows
on the engineering drawings as a connector on the rear side of the
CPU module.


Correct. There is a port on the external case.





Am I missing something?


Yes. I don't know how you read schematics, but if you start with that
document, you have the ROM cartridge mentioned already on the first page.

Going to the CPU module, you have a huge connector called J3, which is
where the cartridge plugs in.

And then of course, you have the ROM cartridge drawing itself, starting
at page 25.

It's so clear in those schematics that I have no idea how you cannot see
it.

If all you are searching for is a picture where you see the external
slot, those drawings don't dhow it. The only picture of the rear shows
half the rear with the cover, and half without. The cartridge slot is
behind the part drawn with the cover.


Actually, if you go to page 46, you have a full picture of the rear. 
Looking from left to right, you have a rectangle where the DB25 is, a 
narrow, high rectangle which is the cartridge slot, then a place for a 
label or whatever, and at the right end is the power receptacle.
Below this from left to right is a round hole where the mouse connector 
is, followed by some squares where you have the MMJ and keyboard connectors.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-04-11 01:31, Richard wrote:

In article ,
Johnny Billquist  writes:


On 2017-04-11 00:27, Richard wrote:

In article ,
Johnny Billquist  writes:


You will also want a dump of the ROM cartridge, that actually holds most
of the code...


What do you mean by "ROM cartridge"?  I've never seen any cartridges
for DEC terminals, not even the GIGI.

Are you referring to E80?


No. The VT330 and VT340 have an external cartridhe that plugs into a
slot in the back, and which holds most of the code.


You're describing this like there's a port on the external case of the
terminal for this, but I am not seeing that in the diagrams.  It shows
on the engineering drawings as a connector on the rear side of the
CPU module.


Correct. There is a port on the external case.




Am I missing something?


Yes. I don't know how you read schematics, but if you start with that 
document, you have the ROM cartridge mentioned already on the first page.


Going to the CPU module, you have a huge connector called J3, which is 
where the cartridge plugs in.


And then of course, you have the ROM cartridge drawing itself, starting 
at page 25.


It's so clear in those schematics that I have no idea how you cannot see it.

If all you are searching for is a picture where you see the external 
slot, those drawings don't dhow it. The only picture of the rear shows 
half the rear with the cover, and half without. The cartridge slot is 
behind the part drawn with the cover.



While we're talking about additional ROMs that need to be dumped,
there appears to be a ROM on the graphics board as well.


Yes, I'm seeing a 27256 in there.

Johnny

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