Re: [Simh] PDP-8 and OS/8 assembly

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-06-25 23:50, Bill Cunningham wrote:
 I am reading a bit about the machine the PDP-8. 4K fortran I guess 
was used, there were 8 "registers" if that's right. And 12 bit words. As 
far as languages here, is Macro-8 assembly language? These assembly 
languages today are so complicated. I would like to look at assembly 
with such a simple machine. Of course with the toggles your coding in 
machine language.
 Is there an assembler available for PDP-8? OS/8 preferrably but 
tss-8 or anything would do?


Here is a hint for you: Read the OS/8 Handbook. (Didn't I already say this?)
Not only does it explain how to bootstrap OS/8 from scratch, it also 
tells you about the PAL8 assembler, along with the RALF and SABR 
assemblers, and also the BASIC, FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV environment, 
and a bunch of other utilities... Everything you need, essentially.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] PDP-8 and OS/8 assembly

[Bill Cunningham]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Ethan Dicks 
  To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 6:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] PDP-8 and OS/8 assembly


  On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Bill Cunningham  
wrote:
  > I am reading a bit about the machine the PDP-8. 4K fortran I guess was
  > used,

  That was one option, yes.

  > there were 8 "registers" if that's right.

  Not sure where this is coming from...

  Oh I'm sorry I meant operation codes. 3 registers. I believe 8 opcodes.

  There's the 12-bit Accumulator and its associated LINK (carry) bit.
  Some models always have a 12-bit MQ (Multiplier Quotient) register,
  some get an MQ when the EAE is installed, and some never get it.
  There's a 12-bit Program Counter, and two extended field registers,
  either 1-bit, 2-bit (PDP-8/L) or 3-bit (many other models) if the
  memory extension hardware is installed (required to have over 4K)

  > And 12 bit words.

  Yes.

  > As far as languages here, is Macro-8 assembly language?

  Look for assemblers called PAL (PAL III and PAL8) and MACREL (though
  MACREL was a late addition)

  OK

  > Is there an assembler available for PDP-8? OS/8 preferrably but tss-8 or
  > anything would do?

  Plenty of assembler possibilities with OS/8.  I have no experience with TSS-8.

  http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/8391/PDP8-PALAssembly-Language/

  -ethan

  OK I see. The registers other than AC and the two others are all I've heard 
of. Where Do I ge this...

  https://www.grc.com/pdp-8/pdp-8.htm

  Pretty nice page. I just found it earlier.

  Bill
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Re: [Simh] PDP-8 and OS/8 assembly

[Ethan Dicks]

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Bill Cunningham  wrote:
> I am reading a bit about the machine the PDP-8. 4K fortran I guess was
> used,

That was one option, yes.

> there were 8 "registers" if that's right.

Not sure where this is coming from...

There's the 12-bit Accumulator and its associated LINK (carry) bit.
Some models always have a 12-bit MQ (Multiplier Quotient) register,
some get an MQ when the EAE is installed, and some never get it.
There's a 12-bit Program Counter, and two extended field registers,
either 1-bit, 2-bit (PDP-8/L) or 3-bit (many other models) if the
memory extension hardware is installed (required to have over 4K)

> And 12 bit words.

Yes.

> As far as languages here, is Macro-8 assembly language?

Look for assemblers called PAL (PAL III and PAL8) and MACREL (though
MACREL was a late addition)

> Is there an assembler available for PDP-8? OS/8 preferrably but tss-8 or
> anything would do?

Plenty of assembler possibilities with OS/8.  I have no experience with TSS-8.

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/8391/PDP8-PALAssembly-Language/

-ethan
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[Simh] PDP-8 and OS/8 assembly

[Bill Cunningham]

I am reading a bit about the machine the PDP-8. 4K fortran I guess was 
used, there were 8 "registers" if that's right. And 12 bit words. As far as 
languages here, is Macro-8 assembly language? These assembly languages today 
are so complicated. I would like to look at assembly with such a simple 
machine. Of course with the toggles your coding in machine language. 

Is there an assembler available for PDP-8? OS/8 preferrably but tss-8 or 
anything would do?

Bill
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Re: [Simh] OS/8

[Bill Cunningham]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Clem Cole 
  To: Bill Cunningham 
  Cc: SIMH 
  Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 3:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] OS/8


  https://www.grc.com/pdp-8/docs/OS8_System_Reference_Manual.pdf


  Alright. Ok I see. Got it.

  Bill
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Re: [Simh] OS/8

[Bill Cunningham]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bill Cunningham 
  To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 3:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] OS/8



- Original Message - 
From: Vince Mulhollon 
To: SIMH List 
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] OS/8


On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Bill Cunningham  
wrote:

  One thing I have noticed in simh's software kits repository, si that 
the OS/8 there doesn't seem to have any simh loading or preparation 
instructions for OS/8.


Find "OS/8 system reference manual" from bitsavers or whatever.  The 1973 
edition. AKA document name DEC-S8-OSRMA-A-D

Humm. I am looking here,

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/

Am I overlooking something?  don't see that code in the directory.

Bill

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Re: [Simh] OS/8

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Vince Mulhollon wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Bill Cunningham  
> wrote:
> >   One thing I have noticed in simh's software kits repository, is 
> > that the OS/8 there doesn't seem to have any simh loading or 
> > preparation instructions for OS/8.
> 
> Find "OS/8 system reference manual" from bitsavers or whatever.  
> The 1973 edition. AKA document name DEC-S8-OSRMA-A-D
>
> Starts right off with bootstrapping your OS/8 from papertape. 
> (also instructions for disk and dectape)
>
> I've always meant to implement this in my infinite spare time as 
> TCL Expect macros to automate an install for testing and general 
> messing around.

FYI, the current simh at https://github.com/simh/simh has built-in
EXPECT functionality.  Given that, a platform independent install & 
test script could readily be implemented...


- Mark
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Re: [Simh] OS/8

[Bill Cunningham]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Vince Mulhollon 
  To: SIMH List 
  Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 3:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] OS/8


  On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Bill Cunningham  
wrote:

One thing I have noticed in simh's software kits repository, si that 
the OS/8 there doesn't seem to have any simh loading or preparation 
instructions for OS/8.


  Find "OS/8 system reference manual" from bitsavers or whatever.  The 1973 
edition. AKA document name DEC-S8-OSRMA-A-D


  Starts right off with bootstrapping your OS/8 from papertape. (also 
instructions for disk and dectape)


  I've always meant to implement this in my infinite spare time as TCL Expect 
macros to automate an install for testing and general messing around.


  Load RIM BIN.  Then a papertape of ODT I guess (A little fuzzy here).  Then 
you pick 1 of 3 device driver tapes (RK RF DF) and load that dude up.  Then 
load up the command decoder tape.  So three tapes total.  Then run at 0200 and 
that writes command decoder and ODT to the disk and gives you the famous . 
prompt.  Then you spend some time with ABSLDR, which boils down to R ABSLDR, 
load up PAL8 or whatever tape, then SAVE SYS PAL8 and repeat until you're all 
loaded up.


  The instructions are a bit vague in the intro "bootstraping OS8" at the start 
of the book.  Toward the middle there is a detailed man page for ABSLDR.


  You've probably seen appendix A an exhaustive explanation of RIM and BIN 
loader, perhaps as just an abstracted part.


  Its a tolerable good manual.  I've read worse. 

  Thanks much Vince. I have downloaded the 1974 manual in pdf. But only glanced 
through yesterday. I will look at bitsavers again.



  Bill


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Re: [Simh] OS/8

[Vince Mulhollon]

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Bill Cunningham 
wrote:

> One thing I have noticed in simh's software kits repository, si that
> the OS/8 there doesn't seem to have any simh loading or preparation
> instructions for OS/8.
>

Find "OS/8 system reference manual" from bitsavers or whatever.  The 1973
edition. AKA document name DEC-S8-OSRMA-A-D

Starts right off with bootstrapping your OS/8 from papertape. (also
instructions for disk and dectape)

I've always meant to implement this in my infinite spare time as TCL Expect
macros to automate an install for testing and general messing around.

Load RIM BIN.  Then a papertape of ODT I guess (A little fuzzy here).  Then
you pick 1 of 3 device driver tapes (RK RF DF) and load that dude up.  Then
load up the command decoder tape.  So three tapes total.  Then run at 0200
and that writes command decoder and ODT to the disk and gives you the
famous . prompt.  Then you spend some time with ABSLDR, which boils down to
R ABSLDR, load up PAL8 or whatever tape, then SAVE SYS PAL8 and repeat
until you're all loaded up.

The instructions are a bit vague in the intro "bootstraping OS8" at the
start of the book.  Toward the middle there is a detailed man page for
ABSLDR.

You've probably seen appendix A an exhaustive explanation of RIM and BIN
loader, perhaps as just an abstracted part.

Its a tolerable good manual.  I've read worse.
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Re: [Simh] OS/8

[Ray Jewhurst]

I would love to generate my own OS/8 using DECTape images but I have never
seen any instructions.

On Jun 25, 2017 2:57 PM, "Bill Cunningham"  wrote:

> One thing I have noticed in simh's software kits repository, si that
> the OS/8 there doesn't seem to have any simh loading or preparation
> instructions for OS/8.
>
> Bill
>
>
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[Simh] OS/8

[Bill Cunningham]

One thing I have noticed in simh's software kits repository, si that the 
OS/8 there doesn't seem to have any simh loading or preparation instructions 
for OS/8.

Bill
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Re: [Simh] simh & pdp-8 os-8 forums / help

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-06-25 14:20, Bill Cunningham wrote:



On 6/25/2017 5:18 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2017-06-24 19:00, Robert Armstrong wrote:
   Have you read the OS/8 handbook?  It tells you pretty much 
everything there is to know about OS/8. You can find a copy on 
bitsavers,


http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/

I've never used the OS/8 image that comes with simh so I’m only 
guessing, but it sounds like it doesn't have a device driver for the 
printer (it's called a device "handler" in OS/8 lingo) installed. 
You'll need to install one.  It tells you how to do that in the 
handbook.


Correct.

Adding a device in simh is equivalent to putting the card in the 
backplane. That does not mean the OS automatically knows about it. You 
also need to configure the OS side of things.


Seriously - for the OP - you need to start by actually learning the 
OS, and not just fool around and expect things to just work, or other 
people tell you the obvious things.


The OS/8 handbook is really required reading before you ask any 
questions where OS/8 is involved.


Johnny

Yes Johnny I have looked at a few OSes from DEC days and the pdps 8 and 
11 are interesting I think. So I will spend some time with OS/8 and I 
think tts8 and maybe rx or rsx is pdp8. Anyway RSTS is a descendant of 
the PDP8 OSes. OS8 anyway.


A little confusing text, but from what I *think* you say:
RSTS could possibly be said to be a descendant from TSS-8.
RT-11 have a very clear resemblance to OS/8.
RSX don't really have anything close on the PDP-8 side. The closest 
would be RTS-8, but it's not very close. RSX comes from the PDP-15 
originally.


But no matter what OS one wants to play with, understanding the OS is 
important. Just fiddling with the simh side is not going to cut it.


Johnny

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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] simh & pdp-8 os-8 forums / help

[Bill Cunningham]

On 6/25/2017 5:18 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2017-06-24 19:00, Robert Armstrong wrote:
   Have you read the OS/8 handbook?  It tells you pretty much 
everything there is to know about OS/8. You can find a copy on 
bitsavers,


http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/

I've never used the OS/8 image that comes with simh so I’m only 
guessing, but it sounds like it doesn't have a device driver for the 
printer (it's called a device "handler" in OS/8 lingo) installed.   
You'll need to install one.  It tells you how to do that in the 
handbook.


Correct.

Adding a device in simh is equivalent to putting the card in the 
backplane. That does not mean the OS automatically knows about it. You 
also need to configure the OS side of things.


Seriously - for the OP - you need to start by actually learning the 
OS, and not just fool around and expect things to just work, or other 
people tell you the obvious things.


The OS/8 handbook is really required reading before you ask any 
questions where OS/8 is involved.


Johnny

Yes Johnny I have looked at a few OSes from DEC days and the pdps 8 and 
11 are interesting I think. So I will spend some time with OS/8 and I 
think tts8 and maybe rx or rsx is pdp8. Anyway RSTS is a descendant of 
the PDP8 OSes. OS8 anyway.


Bill

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Re: [Simh] simh & pdp-8 os-8 forums / help

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-06-24 19:00, Robert Armstrong wrote:

   Have you read the OS/8 handbook?  It tells you pretty much everything there 
is to know about OS/8.  You can find a copy on bitsavers,

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/

I've never used the OS/8 image that comes with simh so I’m only guessing, but it sounds 
like it doesn't have a device driver for the printer (it's called a device 
"handler" in OS/8 lingo) installed.   You'll need to install one.  It tells you 
how to do that in the handbook.


Correct.

Adding a device in simh is equivalent to putting the card in the 
backplane. That does not mean the OS automatically knows about it. You 
also need to configure the OS side of things.


Seriously - for the OP - you need to start by actually learning the OS, 
and not just fool around and expect things to just work, or other people 
tell you the obvious things.


The OS/8 handbook is really required reading before you ask any 
questions where OS/8 is involved.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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